1. #76
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    Default Responsibility?

    Funkyfire,
    Negligence is something for a civil trial court not Criminal. Did the ignorance and negligence of the fire officers in Westmoreland and Lairdsville rise to a criminal level? I don't think so, but I'm interested in what happens after the criminal trial. I don't think that all of the fire officers from Westmorland or Lairdsville will be completely off the hook. Depending on the structure of the Department and the Administration including the Fire Commissioners, there maybe a very large price to pay.

    Mongo,
    I agree that if Baird told Golden that he shouldn't be involved and someone else took him in, then two questions should be asked:
    1. Who provided Brad Golden with the SCBA?
    2. Why prior to lighting the couch, didn't Baird make sure of the whereabouts of Brad Golden?

    Training a rookie is about, "yo boot, I want you on my butt the whole time. If I don't see you there everytime I turn around, when we get back to the station your butt is mine." When Brad Golden showed up when they called back to the station for "victims", Baird should have sent Brad Golden back to the station or given him the "stay on my butt" speech.

    Yes Mongo, Baird was still responsible for Brad Golden.

    I have said on this and other web sites that certification and training is the key to making sure that this doesn't happen again. In some states the authority to determine what level of training is required by all fire fighters and fire officers is at the state level. In some states like PA they do not have such authority at the present time. Public safety is a function of the local jurisdictions. For those who have set standards, some will argue that this limits those who would become volunteers. These same people see this as a problem. I see this as a challenge and a benefit. Those who are unwilling to spend the time training and obtaining certifications should not be admitted since our mission involves decisions that involve life and death of civilians and brothers alike. We need to make sure that this is clear up front during a pre-entrance interview to all prospective volunteers. To place the lives of others in the hands of untrained/uncertified officers will lead to tragedies like Lairdsville. These lessons are not new, as George Wendt and others have pointed out. In NJ, they at least set minimum training and certification standards, for all.

    Mr. Steve Moran,
    I am very sorry to hear that a relative of yours was injured in a training accident. The fact that it happened in a State Sponsored training evolution and no-one was apparently held accountable makes it even that more tragic. It does not however release Mr. Baird of his responsibilities to act in a manner consistent with the criminal code in New York State. There is also a difference in a case where death has resulted as opposed to injury despite the painful and difficult nature of burns.

    Whether or not Mr. Baird is guilty, I will wait until the defense has its turn to present its case.

  2. #77
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    Default Re: Responsibility?

    Originally posted by amfm
    Did the ignorance and negligence of the fire officers in Westmoreland and Lairdsville rise to a criminal level? I don't think so, but I'm interested in what happens after the criminal trial.

    I have to say yes it did. When Baird made the decision to make the situation "more intense", he crossed the line into a criminal act. In my eyes he may has well of said, "Let's cook 'em". (No disrespect intended toward the victims)
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

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    Default We agree

    StayBack,
    I wasn't referring to Baird. I was referring to the other officers from Lairdsville and Westmoreland, including the Fire Commissioners. Did the lack of training, which apparently was somewhat the responsibililty of the Fire Commissioners, and the other fire officers, help lead to the sorry events that we now know as Lairdsville? I say yes. Was it such that criminally negligent charges could be brought? I don't know that. I don't have enough information to make that decision.

    Were they liable. Yes. Is that a decision to be made in a criminal trial. Only if the District Attorney for Onieda County has decided to do so by bringing the facts to a Grand Jury and letting them decide to send down indictments.

    Even when this criminal trial is over, there is going to be a lot more that will play out in the months and years to come.

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    With the defense resting it's case today, let's go back to Lairdsville: What Went Wrong? and see what differs from the interviews to the courtroom testimony.
    According to Benjamin Morris, he stated in his interview that he never made it back to his feet. He frantically searched for a way out of the smoke-filled room. He couldn't see Golden. He couldn't see anything. He groped for a door, a window, a hand to guide him. He remembers making it to the front wall of the room. His bell went off. He panicked, banged on the walls a couple of times, then fell backwards. He blacked out.
    Morris thought that only the fire in the barrel on the second floor would be set.
    Morris stated in his interview that he and Golden weren't told of their roles as victims until they arrived at the farmhouse.
    In his court testimony, he stayed pretty true to his pre-trial statements. He testified that Croman left him and Golden in the room, came back about five minutes later and said "come on guys, we got to go, let's go. As the firefighters tried to escape, they lost contact with each other. Morris stated "I never made it to my feet. The room filled with smoke. I was confused. I didn't know what was going on." Morris said he panicked and became disoriented. Extreme heat prevented him from making it to the blazing stairway. He lost consciousness and remembers waking up in the grass in the front yard. Morris was asked who was in charge at the drill scene. Morris stated "As far as I knew, it was Lairdsville's practice. The highest-ranking officer was in charge," Morris said in reference to Baird. Morris testified Adam Croman was acting as safety officer.
    Adam Croman declined to be interviewed, but according to his father, Adam told him that he sought to help the others before leaping out the window. "He told me he pushed them toward the stairs and he jumped out the window with a full pack on," Chief Lance Croman said of his son. "For some reason we don't know, the other two didn't make it out."
    According to Adam Croman's testimony, he was asked by his father to participate as an advisor in a rapid intervention exercise. Adam Croman said he was told a burn barrel was to be used in a "smoke-only" exercise. Morris and Golden were positioned lying down in a bedroom to simulate downed firefighters and Croman was to light the barrel in another room. Baird stood near the sofa by the foot of the stairs. "All I saw was one foot and one hand going down and then I saw an orange glow, that's all I saw." Baird "then commanded me to give him the mattress". "That's when I saw flames licking from the first level to the ceiling of the second level". According to Croman, he took Morris and Golden to a second-floor window, but the flames and thick black smoke from the first-floor fire "were licking up at us". "We got to the hall area and sort of just nudged each other to try to get downstairs." As the three firefighters tried to crawl backward down a burning staircase to escape the inferno surrounding them, Croman realized he couldn't make it down that way alive. Moments later, Croman testified he lost contact with Morris and Golden. "You go from human to survival mode. You can't explain it. We were all just panicking. We didn't know what to do," Croman testified. He added: "It got intense. I just bolted out. We were all yelling for each other. To this day, I can still hear screaming. It was mind-boggling." Croman found the burn barrel room and crawled until he felt cardboard over a window. Croman jumped out a second-floor window. Croman told Moran he agreed only to act in a "safety" function on the second floor.
    Alan Baird in his interview with the Uticah Observer Dispatch stated that he thought everyone upstairs knew what was going on because they had radios.
    Well, we have been through Baird's stuff numerous times.
    Here's my question: Why the big, big difference in the two stories between Adam Croman and Benjamin Morris. Croman looking to get a Medal of Valor out of this? Baird says that there were radios, but no one has said that they tried to get anyone on a radio. If the fire broke as aggressively as Baird says, why wasn't he calling the second floor, telling them to get the hell out. He stated that he didn't ladder the windows for safety because they were too small, but Adam Croman managed to bail out of one, didn't he? In Baird's interview, he stated that he, Spaven, Croman and Kimball stood on the steps and went through the exercise, so why all of the confusion?
    Then in court, Baird said that the exercise was poorly planned and they made it up as they went along. How much could you make up as you went along when the accounts say that five minutes after he lit the couch, all hell broke loose. There wasn't time to "make it up as you go along". At that point, they were in the rescue mode and the training exercise ceased to be!
    For my money, Benjamin Morris is the most credible witness of them all. Granted, he has every right to be bitter, but he comes the closet to sticking to his story. And HE says that Baird was in charge. Everyone said that Baird was in charge, except Baird. Now, without making an unfounded accusation here, it would appear that the Cromans and Kimball have rehearsed to corroborate testimony. They have been measured in their testimony. I believe that Croman is lying out of both sides of his mouth. He says that they panicked and didn't know what they were doing, but yet, gives a detailed account of his "heroics". I have said all along that Baird and others were responsible and it isn't more glaring in Croman's case. Blood is thicker than water, so Dad is going with the son. But where is any reference to any radio traffic? Where is "I radioed......"?
    If they had radios, why were they all yelling, according to Croman?
    All others believed that the burn barrel was to be used, but Baird, the guy who planned the exercise said that the barrel was not to be used for that exercise. So he had planned all along to light the couch? He stated that he made it up as he went along. So how could anyone else know his plans and why was everyone else so clear on the idea that a burn barrel was to be used? Baird said in testimony "The whole plan was poorly planned. It was made up as WE went along." He said that he told Golden that he could not participate and went so far as to say that he should have gone upstairs to find out who was up there. Why? He supposedly had a radio. He could have radioed "Adam, who is up there?" Adam could have radioed back, "I thought that we were only lighting the burn barrel?" To which Baird could have radioed, "Get out now; the fire just went up the wall." But apparently, no one knew how to use their radios either.
    Why wasn't Gary Spaven called to testify? And why would his wife? I won't even comment on that.
    I also noticed that there is a whole lot of people covering Kimball's ***. Good ole boy, perhaps?
    Well, lads and laddies, it has been interesting, but the best is yet to come. I can already smell an appeal, because Baird wants to be exonerated and that is just not going to happen. Croman believes that he is a hero. That, too, isn't going to happen. This fire department doesn't need a giant makeover; it needs a giant turnover. It is a nest of good ole boys and their boys and if they stay in, history will repeat itself in that fire district.
    I have been known to be right once in a while!
    Last edited by ChiefReason; 05-21-2002 at 11:24 PM.

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    Chief, I am not an overly religious person, but I'm telling you right now I want to shout HALLEILUYAH!!!!!!! (darn, don't think I spelled it right though)
    Excellent post and may I say I agree 100%!!!!
    Actually the radio issue was one that I raised quite some time ago. They all had radios, but did Baird ever think to warn them that all hell had broke loose? Apparently not.
    Lets' hope these ripples are felt all over North America

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    Chief Reason

    Outstanding post... thank you for keeping track of everything. The radio thing puzzled me as well.

    From firehouse.com news storyAbout 10 firefighters were on the scene when the fire flared up, Walsh said, with water close at hand and constant radio contact being maintained.
    If they were in constant radio contact how come none of them knew how many 'live victims' were inside?

    I just pulled this off of the Lairdsville site, found it while I was looking for something else. I'm going to post it because it's got my knickers in a knot...It is an excerpt from a statement Baird made to the police on Oct 7th.

    Question: Do Adam Croman and Gary Spaven have any training as safety officers or are you aware of any training they should have had to be a safety officer?

    Baird: To my knowledge, I’m not aware of any training that is required to be a training officer
    Does this statement bother anyone else?

    In a December report, the state determined Spaven set the couch ablaze. Spaven denies this, and Baird told investigators it was he who lit the fire. The state cites as its source Westmoreland Fire District safety and health officer Robert Walsh, who says he was not present when the incident began. The state, however, stands by its report
    A thought just occured to me as I was reading through this again. What do you think the chances are that Baird didn't light the couch on fire, that it was actually Spaven, and Baird said he did it because he didn't think that any formal charges would be laid? So he said he lit the couch to protect Spaven? Spaven is the only one (other than Baird) that was involved in the incident that says there were four of them in charge that night and it was a group decision. There is also mention that Spaven and Crowman were thought to have experience conducting a training fire with live victims, but Baird didn't have any.

    This is what I was actually looking for...
    Baird did know that firefighters inside the house were to communicate with other firefighters by radio.

    “Both safety officers upstairs had radios and were in contact with the chief. I didn’t have a radio with me at the time the exercise started,” Baird said. “I looked up the stairway and saw Adam Croman standing at the top of the stairs. I asked Croman if everyone was ready, and he said that they were.”
    Why wouldn't he have a radio?

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    Default MONGOFIRE

    Hey Mongo here are two words I have wanted to say to you since the day I began posting in these forums: BAIRD GUILTY.

    Will you and your new friend Moran continue to email eachother with the bull**** you have for the past 3 months?

    For all of you in these forums that had no clue 3 months ago and could only sit in here and question everything I attempted to explain, with sarcasism, the jury has spoke. So what does that tell you?

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    FDNYR1 - Wow! You're my hero. Your grasp of the obvious is overwhelming. You alone, thought Baird was guilty of wrong doing. Not one other person in any of the 5 or 6 threads with over a hundred responses thought anything was wrong. You da man!

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    fdnyr1

    here are two words I have wanted to say to you since the day I began posting in these forums: BAIRD GUILTY.

    And where does that conflict with anything I've said regarding Baird?

    I never said he was innocent, I never proclaimed his innocence.

    For all of you in these forums that had no clue 3 months ago and could only sit in here and question everything I attempted to explain, with sarcasism, the jury has spoke.

    No clue, are you insane? Can you read? I posted the links in another topic, go back and show us anything you tried to explain and anything that shows we have no clue.

    A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G

    In fact, it probably wouldn't be too hard for any number of us to go back and demonstrate that it is actually you that has no clue. A little discussion on your claim of not listening to for PASS devices if you're not on the RIT comes to mind...

    If you're not smart enough to find the links let me know and I'll post them here.

    You explained nothing. Remember, you and ny55 developed a secret gag order that nobody else had?

    Heck (and even though I agree you can use any name you want) you used FDNYR1 to try and grab some instant credibility.

    So what's the answers to any of my questions you avoid because you're too CS to answer?

    So what does that tell you?

    Your as much a coward as ny55 and croman. You dodge every question posed to you but **** and moan when your's don't get answered.

    What are YOU hiding?

    Bones

    She not da man, she da old, bitter woman.
    Last edited by mongofire_99; 05-23-2002 at 01:13 PM.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    mongo = girl..baird= guilty .... thats all i have to say

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    That's all you got?
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    mongo = girl..baird= guilty .... thats all i have to say
    Yep, that's all I'd say, too if I were you.
    Steve Gallagher
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    Well, I figured the acrimony would start soon enough. Do we all understand that Baird being found guilty of criminally negligent homicide is pretty much a symbolic gesture? I don't think he will ever see the inside of the jail, unless it is to counsel a firesetter, but it is pretty much a shallow victory for those of us who place our people's safety above all else and a shallow defeat for those who thought that we would actually see other officers stand up and proclaim that they had responsibility.
    To those of you who came into these forums using a kamikaze style of evading the questions posed to you, you clearly showed your ignorance and your unwillingness to participate COMPLETELY by reading all posters. I realize that some can be long, but if you don't read the whole thing, you miss the point. So instead, you chose to jump in where you saw a name that, no matter what they said, you would take exception with and then proceed to tell us that you were there, but couldn't or wouldn't give us a shred of corroborating proof. You covered up worse than Nixon, but at least he had enough integrity to leave office. You kept coming into the thread, telling most of us that we didn't know sh*t from apple butter about the tragedy, but then, neither did you. When you had a captive audience and your chance to educate us, you resorted to name-calling and other abrasive adolescent behavior with no other purpose than to get the thread off-topic. WHY CAN'T POSTERS START AT THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD, GET A SENSE FOR THE TOPIC BEING DISCUSSED, ABSORB WHAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED, SO WE DON'T GO OVER AND OVER AND OVER THE SAME SH*T. AND YOU THINK YOU HAVE STATED A REVELATION; A POINT SO COMPELLING THAT YOU TYPE IN ALL CAPS! See the irony here? Anyway, the criminal trial of Baird is over. There were differences of opinions that were stated very succinctly and some not. I don't know that anyone who even felt that Baird was guilty before the verdict was in, were doing high-fives after it was read. It is a story with a sad ending, regardless.
    And for those of you who believe that you will be sued for everything that you do; maybe, it's time to find another hobby, because if you don't believe that you are positively contributing to your fire service every day and are going to cower at the threat of a lawsuit, then you shouldn't continue because you don't have the heart. You don't have the drive to educate yourself to a level of competency that, if questioned, will stand up in a court of law, but more importantly, you will know in your heart that you gave it your all. The laws are there to protect us from the idiots. Standards are there to educate us. I don't know about the rest of you, but this trial and the ensuing verdict, does not shake me one bit, because we follow the standards. We will continue as we have. We train and educate. (The entire Lairdsville text will be added to our library as a learning tool). We demand of our people and if it's too much of a demand, then stand down; someone else says that they will give us the effort. I said before that this isn't done for fun; it's not dress up so we can feed some sick uniform fetish. We do it for our loved ones and the citizens of our communities. If you're doing it for any other reason, then you're one of those who is afraid that he will be sued.
    Why can't we challenge each other to push for national training standards? We are closer than you think. How many of you that are volunteers would attempt to do something at your regular job that you aren't trained and qualified to do? You wouldn't because of safety, you don't want to ruin your chances at a promotion or you don't want to screw up and get fired. Why is what you do for the volunteer fire department any different? It's time to give what you love the attention that it needs and I'm not talking about a bass boat here.
    If you really believe that you can get by putting in the minimum training hours that your fire department requires, then it will always be the same until you are willing to put in the effort necessary to make CHANGE! It's time for a gut check.
    And for the record; no one bashed me, called me names or insulted me in any way during the entire time these threads were alive. So I guess there is still time, if you have a mind to. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
    You want some-go get some!!
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    Red face Name Calling!

    I'll call you a name Chief Reason....

    INCREDIBLE!

    Awesome post, thank you for the inspiration.
    "They're so hell-bent on giving, walking a wire,

    Convinced it's not living, if you stand outside the fire."

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    Chief, as usual, beautifully written!

    Hopefully, this case will make people in line officer positions take responsibility for their actions and training. Too often people take positions so that they have the extra brass on their uniform, not because they feel they can do the job.

    Along with the position comes the responsibility to take care of your troops, and to ensure that you can DO ALL functions of the job.

    I hope they go after Croman also. He took the poor kid in, he should have made sure he got out.
    9/11/01 Never forget Never forgive

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    Default ????

    What planet has FDNYR1 been on. I know that I have posted as well as many others since day one that Baird should be held accountable and is GUILTY! I still think that others such as croman and other officers who were there that day should be gone after next. They accepted the position as well as the responsibility. The should be held accountable for their actions as well as their inactions. In the precedings they indicated they were not comfortable with the process. THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED IT! One step further would be to go after the council as "accessories" since they publicly stated in an interview that they questioned Baird's abilities and training when they appointed him....NO BRAINER her folks!

    Chief Reason...I see what you are saying about a symbolic gesture. I just hope that this serves as a wake up for other morons and idiots across the U.S. It is a message that killing people in training exercises due to lack of safety, poor planning (no planning), irresponsible actions, immaturity, stupidity, ignorance etc., is not acceptable.

    Temptaker...I also wondered why the IC would not have a radio. And I also found his "I don't know of any training..." statement to be very interesting (for lack of better word. The inconsistancy in stories could suggest some sort of cover up as you say. I am sure that as testimony came out, these are some of the reasons that he was convicted.

    MONGO....Easy boy.... I am with you....but I see that FDNYR1 is back on the attack again.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    Some information you all may find interesting. Ben Morris was on a local radio show on Wednesday. The show was The Keeler in The Morning Show. He told everyone that he was considerd an experienced firefighter. He also told everyone listening that he watched Baird light the couch on fire. He siad he watched Baird watch the fire burn for 5 minutes. You tell me doesnt that mean he watched the fire burn for 5 min also. I then called the radio station and asked this as my second question " If Ben was an experienced firefighter and watch Baird watch the fire burn for 5 min. Then he should have known it was time to get the hell out before it got too bad." After that question the host Bill Keeler hung up on me very fast.


    I posted this several times so everyone could see it.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

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    sfdlt5>>>>>sounds as if you may have been there????

    WE all know that thre was no experience there....PERIOD!

    Let them all keep chatting and taking advantage of the situation and trying to make themselves famous out of this. None of them except the MUTT (Kimball) are immune from prosecution... Let them keep at it...
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    Angry

    You are incorrect and not paying close attention to the details in my post . I siad I heard him say he was experienced and what he saw on a radio show. I was far away when it happend. I am not in any of the depts involved thank god.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

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    Thanks for clearing that up for us.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    mongofire_99

    I was going to let this go, but in reading it again, it's really irritating. Forget about FDNYR1 and nyfirefighter55 it is obvious to everyone here that they have no real interest in contributing constructively to the forum, instead choose to attack someone that WE (forum members) respect.

    FDNYR1 and nyfirefighter55

    If you really are as your name states from NY, I would think given recent incidents your priority would be to keep your people safe, educate them well, and press for higher standards in your state. I could be wrong, but if people get getting hurt and killed where I live I would be doing EVERYTHING within my power to ensure that it STOPS. Instead you choose to name call... that's very mature, your are truly a credit to the profession.

    Chief Reason

    Thank you once again for an outstanding post. Your wisdom, insite and great way with words is appreciated.

    Originally posted by Chief ReasonAnd for those of you who believe that you will be sued for everything that you do; maybe, it's time to find another hobby, because if you don't believe that you are positively contributing to your fire service every day and are going to cower at the threat of a lawsuit, then you shouldn't continue because you don't have the heart. You don't have the drive to educate yourself to a level of competency that, if questioned, will stand up in a court of law, but more importantly, you will know in your heart that you gave it your all.
    Chief I totally agree with you... if you don't know what you are doing, time to find another sand box to play in. There is no way that fire fighter, in the line of duty, could be named in a CRIMINAL lawsuit UNLESS he did something negligent. Meaning outside of your scope of practice, not following procedures, etc. For those of you who are afraid that you will be sued, the information is out there, it is up to you whether you decide to pursue it. Honestly if you can't be bothered to find out what the proper procedures are, then you shouldn't be doing the job. Keeping yourself abreast of new procedures, tactics, standards, proper use of equipment etc, is PART of your job. It shouldn't be up to your officers to chase around after you making sure that you know what you are doing, or am I wrong and the whole lot of you are probies? Yes it is there job to make sure you do things safely, however, please correct me if I am wrong, doing things safely is COMMON SENSE, it is also part of YOUR joh. Anyone that would name a officer in a suit because 'he didn't tell me to use a leg lock', 'he didn't tell me to clip in', 'he didn't tell me....', (sounds like a 6 yr old) shouldn't be doing the job. Yes the officer should catch those things, but you should KNOW to do them.

    sfdlt5

    Thanks for the info on the radio show. I was wondering why Morris would get ammunity for his participation at the trial. It would seem that perhaps he wasn't quite the 'sheep led to slaughter' as was implied. However, even if he did watch the fire burn for 5 minutes , I don't know if that would make him criminally responsible for Brad Golden's death. Certainly he could be named in a civil suit.

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    Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in! - Michael Corleone from The Godfather II. Or was it III?
    Anyway, you know we should probably switch gears and rename this thread Lairdsville Revisited: What Was CHANGED? New York is actually considering legislating training requirements for those conducting live burns outside of the training academies. Really? Why would they want to do something that reasonable? Why would they want to do something that makes perfectly good sense?
    I know of no other fitting tribute to a young man that lost his life than to be the catalyst for sweeping reform. Call it "The Bradley Golden Law". We have already seen that we will hold people accountable for poor decisions; now, give them the tools to make better decisions.
    Westmoreland, Lowell and Lairdsville can play their little silly-assed "who was in charge" game or "we don't get along too well with the others" and fool themselves into believing that their cosmetic changes will satisfy the locals, but until New York state steps in and pushes them to change their culture, it will be business as usual. They won't change, because they would lead us to believe that, if they did, they would lose members.
    A chief from Keokuk, IA lost (3) firefighters in December, 1999; the same month and year that Worcester, MA lost (6). Iowa OSHA came in and cited them and fined them for respirator-related violations, among others. Many questions were asked. A battle broke out between the mayor and the fire department and through it all, the department did not lose ONE firefighter as a result of that incident. He made the necessary changes and two and a half years later, they are a better fire department. You see, they took the notion that if they had it to do all over again, THEY WOULD CHANGE THINGS. I can't tell you how much admiration I have for this department and its officers. This chief, for those of you who don't know, lost his assistant chief, who also happened to be his best friend, a lieutenant and a firefighter to a flashover on that day.Three firefighters and three children perished in that fire.
    Change is inevitable? Why wait?
    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone.

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    "While most volunteers would support tougher requirements for live burn exercises, there is some trepidation about the state legislating improvements, Hannan said."

    And there lies our problem. No matter what we do, no matter how much we scream for adherence to standards, no matter how much we cry for change, here lies our major problem. You've hit the nail on the head Chief Reason, when you say you must change the culture in order to change the behaviour. Until these Departments are willing to admit that they can't and aren't doing things safely and agree to voluntarily adapt and adopt, nothing is going to change. I can just see the chest beating and braying that will go on......"You can't force us!!"....."Just pay for what we need and leave us alone!!" "Who are you to mandate and enforce YOUR rules" "Our Department is unique, what can you know about how we run" "We are volunteers, you can't expect us to live up to professional standards!!!" (Okay I stole that one from someone.....shoot me )

    Significant change isn't going to happen unless one of two things occurs. NY State decides to develope the stones required to legislate training and standards, and Fire Departments across the state agree to willingly adopt them. What do we think the chances of that happening are?

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    Significant change isn't going to happen unless one of two things occurs. NY State decides to develope the stones required to legislate training and standards, and Fire Departments across the state agree to willingly adopt them. What do we think the chances of that happening are?
    LadyCapn, your right, significant change isn't going to happen unless a) Fire Departments are willing to make the change now and/or b) NY State decides to develope a legislation for training.

    Some Fire Departments will probably or have already started to making the necessary changes to their training programs. Some Fire Departments will wait until the State comes up with better standards and there will be some Departments that won't make any changes.

    NY State Legislation on the other hand....well they're on the other hand. To put it mildly, the State Budget could pass faster than the a bill for better training standards.

    So, in an attempt to answer your question,what do we think the chances of that happening are? I think there is a better chance of Fire Departments improving on their training standards than NY deciding to develope them. If and when NY State does develope something it will more than likely (and I could be wrong) fall under the Department of Labor since we already have to follow the Public Employee Safety and Health Act which falls under the DOL.

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    Originally posted by LadyCapn: Significant change isn't going to happen unless one of two things occurs. NY State decides to develope the stones required to legislate training and standards, and Fire Departments across the state agree to willingly adopt them. What do we think the chances of that happening are?
    As a volunteer fire Officer in NY I do have to say that in my county (read where I am from and you should be able to figure it out) live fire training has been conducted in a safe manner all of the times that I have been involved. Are we perfect angels? Absolutely not. Do I think that NYS should have stricter training standards? Absolutely. But I have to agree with SBear597 that we have a better chance of having the state budget pass before any training standards are developed. But hopefully the wheels of change will begin to turn.

    I would hope that the actions of the now vocal few are not accepted as speaking for all firefighters in NY. Just speaking up for the honor of those fire departments in NY that are attempting to follow the standards.
    Last edited by Lewiston2Capt; 05-30-2002 at 10:32 AM.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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