Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 28 123411 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 553
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    DFW area of Texas
    Posts
    660

    Default Lairdsville Revisited

    A short post from me on Lairdsville, what's the world coming too?

    Interesting readin' if you're so inclined...

    http://www.uticaod.com/news/lairdsvi...ille_index.htm
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!


  2. #2
    JTL
    JTL is offline
    Senior Member JTL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    I don't know...
    Posts
    272

    Default

    Thanks Mongo. Will read it with much interest.

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    1,143

    Default A few more tidbits

    Just finished reading the entire article. There were a few more tidbits of information that hadn't previously been available, but it was nice to see more about those involved. Puts more of a human face on the issue.

    When all is said and done, when all the reports are compiled they should be sent to every Department in the Country. There is no excuse for this to happen again anywhere.

  4. #4
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Lightbulb What a concept!

    I agree with Ladycapn...This horrible act of negligence and irresponsible actions should be shared with every department nationwide in great detail.

    I read the entire thing with hair raised on the back of my neck. Seems like a lot of finger pointing and "he said", "she said", "he did it", "no he did it", "I didnt realize".....on so forth.

    If someone does not take the heat for this then we are doomed for it to happen again. It is an unspeakable horrible act that occurred. And for them to even say that they did not realize there was any training for a "Safety Officer" is outrageous. They have been in business since 1949....Are they living in a glass bubble? If so...I think it may have just broke!!!!!

    Ok...off the soap box now. It is a chilling story to say the least.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  5. #5
    JTL
    JTL is offline
    Senior Member JTL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    I don't know...
    Posts
    272

    Default

    "If you don't know history, you are doomed to repeat it." Paraphrasing just a little.

    The most distressing part of this is that it has happened before and still, we have it occur again. Milford was an example, but for naught. Lairdsville will suffer the same fate if the fire service fails to look at itself with a critical eye. Distributing a report would be a good idea. I wonder though, how many would see it and say "That doesn't apply to us". However the effort should be made because one department might see it and change the way they do business with respect to training.

    Swift prosecution is in order. Here is hoping it is carried out with resolve.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA
    Posts
    985

    Default

    Interesting to me were the references to statements made on Firehouse.com....

    Hmmmmmm......
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Conshohocken, PA
    Posts
    391

    Default Real people

    God Rest the soul of Bradley Golden.

    God help the souls of those who are involved in this unspeakable tragedy.

    I also had the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when I saw the pictures of Brad and all the others involved.

    Let's all commit to do the most we can in our communities to make sure this doesn't happen in our back yards.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    central NY
    Posts
    67

    Default Some changes in ny

    Just a point of interest to all who have read this artical so far, I know that it was mentioned that the individuals did not know that there was any formal safety officer training. before i finish let me say that in no way do i agree with what was done or am sticking up for anyone here just pionting out a couple facts that i think should have been mentioned. Having been a member of a fire dept in oneida county for over 7 years now, i can say that there has never to the best of my knowledge been any formal saftey officer class offered by the state, but low and behold there are 2 classes being offered, from what i am hearing these are newly created classes that were created as a result of the incident and a class on on conducting live fire burns is also being put together, but the instructers need to be trained first. How convient that they leave out this fact, the Utica OD is a very one sided paper, but it is the only one we have here.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Illinois-where pertnear is close enough!
    Posts
    5,636

    Default

    Mongo:
    Your vast reservior of resources never ceases to amaze me.
    Thank you for the link.
    Mind-boggling; just mind-boggling.
    Wow. Truly sad. Damn!

  10. #10
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Be that as it may,I have a problem with a 19 yr old Safety Officer.This is not a job for the younger inexperienced Fire Officer.It is better suited to a senior officer with years of TRAINING and Line Experience.No amount of weekend schooling will replace the lessons beat into a seasoned officer.Fire behavior,Ops,building construction and occupancy,and a whole hosts of other concerns are at the top of a properly prepared SO's thought processes.Plus the placing of the so-called Safety officers at this incident virtually guaranteed they could not perform their duties properly.Safety is EVERYBODYs business.T.C.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Westchester Co., NY USA
    Posts
    567

    Default

    Funkyfire,

    There is a incident safety officer course that has been around for a while that is offered at Montour Falls and the annex at Camp Smith. There is also a listing for a "Safety Officer" certification if you get a course catalog from the academy. It also spells out the other certs and their requirements. And yes the state has developed 2 classes that specifically deal with live fire training. I received them at the last instructors conference at the end of Feb. I do not understand what point you are trying to make that the paper left that fact out. This was not a state issue. There were no state fire representatives or instructors on-scene. Furthermore, I applaud the state for responding to the incident by quickly putting that package together. It is not an acutal "certification" however, it is used to spread the word that the state follows NFPA 1430 for training burns, and hopefully this won't happen again. At least for those of us who are certified instructors. The state didn't light those fires, didn't put those kids on that second floor. They decided to do a "routine" (there's that word again) training fire, and tragically it went from routine. We all need to step back and learn from this (again). This is exactly why on another forum a year ago, I argued the point against live fire evolutions in acquired structures. Life like is nice, but not when it comes to putting our guys at risk. I've seen depts. do training fires that in a real scenario would be a defensive attack, but because we need "real training" they light the place up like they used napalm and send newer members in there. Risk vs. Benefit doesn't apply only to real life. The state isn't mentioned because it wasn't a state drill, remember NY is a home rule state, and that fire department was the (he comes that magic NFPA word) the AHJ, or the authority having jurisdiction.

    Rescue101 and JTL, and my boy Mongo, ditto ditto ditto. I cannot see myself partaking in an exercise or being part of a 19 year old volunteer asst. chief and safety officer. And that's not a bash either, just my opinion.
    God bless brother Golden. My sympathy to that dept. and community.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    MI. USA
    Posts
    138

    Default

    My you rest in peace my Brother along with the thousands of other Brother's.

    GOD Bless FDNY and ALL of the lost Brother's and their families.

    FTM, PTB, RFB

  13. #13
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    The standard for live burns is 1403 I believe...
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    central NY
    Posts
    67

    Default ALSFire

    My point is that there is a lack of training on the state level at least in oneida county, I agree that there are classes at montour falls and places like that, but here comes a couple other magic words for u...fire commisioners, first u need to find some in this damm county that are willing to spend some money and send members to these schools, theres another word money, i know i sure dont have any extra cash laying around to foot a triaing bill untill i can get reim bursed. There are state classes held all the time in the county and like i said now they are offering this safety officer course, and would u believe that both classes are filled already. The only problem here is that these are all head on weeknights so anyone that works nights is SOL here. I think that the paper should have put alittle more effort into what types of traingin these guys should have had and what is available.

  15. #15
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Looks like it might be time for whoever deals with the "commish"to grow a set and adress some issues.Being a fire officer today is or a least should be a awesome responsibility.I have seen very few 19-21 yr olds with enough training and experience to assume this role.Again,as others have stated this is not a "slam"just a grim reality.Some people never do make it to officer capable status.It has been our experience that it takes about 7-10 yrs of line experience to be able to "read"incidents well and make proper decisions.At 21,I thought I knew it all about Fire.Now some years later I've had some very somber reminders that I don't.Officership is a ongoing process of learning that continues throughout career,applies to firefighters as well.T.C.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Westchester Co., NY USA
    Posts
    567

    Default

    Thanks Capt for picking up on the typo, I type to fast for my own good sometimes.

    Funky,
    I understand what you are trying to say, without a doubt. Many people are in your shoes, and can sympathize with you. However, with anything, it all cost money. Here in Westchester they also offer state courses at the county fire training center on weeknights for the volunteers. They have recently addes the Basic, Intermediate and Advanced classes occassionally during the day. But there are more people who work days then nights. At Camp Smith, they had to add night courses because the all day courses sometimes couldn't get filled or were all career guys. Even from there, you still can't twist peoples arms to get them to the training. And there is still nothing to say that this wouldn't have happened if there was a safety officers class, and if they were able to attend it. If there is a problem with state courses you need to call OFPC and talk to Tom Wutz, you have to have at least 1 SFI in your county, and if all else fails work with your dept to get an experienced person to work towards becoming one. The thing you have to remember is there are a designated number of what they call residential "outreach" courses that are done on a county level. Others are only done at Montour and Camp Smith, for numerous reasons. Again, the new "courses" they developed are not courses in which a state certificate is issued. It is to teach and advise municipalities and such of NFPA 1403 ( Capt) and other members of the AHJ, so they are aware that there are standards in place. It also gives those who are granted permission by the AHJ some instruction on the standard and then makes them (here is the biggest point) responsible if any injury or death occurs during their burns.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    mongo, thanks for the excellent resource. I have some thoughts.

    First...the thing that struck me most was that these were all KIDS! They were babes! How in the hell can a 19 year old be a Chief and a Safety Officer? When I was 19 I was lucky if they let me ride the engine!

    Second...I understand why Baird is taking the hit on this. I think it is clear that he was running the show and had no idea what he was doing. He is clearly responsible. But he should not be the only one.

    Third...did anyone do an origin and cause investigation on this fire? It seems odd that there can be a discrepency about how many fires there were. Somebody upstairs is lying through their teeth.

    Fourth...we need mandatory national training standards. Whether they come from NFPA, IFSTA or WalMart, we need them bad.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 04-17-2002 at 09:46 AM.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    1,143

    Default

    George, good points.
    As for training standards, what is the point of having them if no one will follow them. Standards for almost every aspect of the fire service already exist. If no one uses or follows them they are useless.
    What we need is to force more tragedies like this to go to inquest or through the criminal justice system. Set legal precedant. Maybe then people will listen.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Lady, the incident that occurred in Parsippany, NJ went to a Grand Jury. The GJ elected not to indict anyone, but they issued a Presentment which called for the complete overhaul of the training system in NJ. It, for the most part, happened. We now have Certified Programs, Facilities and Instructors. We also have (had for environmental reasons) a system to conduct live burn training in acquired structures that required a permit from the State. This was all as a result of that horrible training incident.

    I've edited the post...mandatory was implied, but now I said it. Thanks.

  20. #20
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    ALS,I beg to differ on the point that this could have happened even with SO training.Not if the SO's were trained to standard and not if you were following 1403 because you wouldn't be using petrochemical fuel as was the case in Lairdsville.It is important for EVERY FIREFIGHTER to recieve firefighter safety and survival training along with some safety officer basics.Secondly a true Safety Officer needs to be enabled to NFPA for total scene control and needs enough training and EXPERIENCE to know what they are looking at and how to control it.This counts people with less than say 10 yrs OUT.I've been in this trade very close to 35 yrs and stuff can still sneak up on you,but I still indentify problems quicker than anyone else on the line (average line age 34).Why? One word,EXPERIENCE!This cannot be taught,it must be earned.Education is a wonderful thing,but it cannot and will not replace time and experience.Losses on the training ground are NOT ACCEPTABLE.Fire service educators must constantly train and improve their skills so students are taught SAFELY and correctly.Proper training lasts a lifetime and that should be considerably longer than 19 years.Pardon my attitude,but as a trainer this is my focus and my directive.I WILL train my students to react quickly and properly to crisis or they WILL NOT leave my program as qualified.I will impose safe "disasters"to teach proper reaction.I owe my students no less. T.C.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts