Thread: Large dog...
04-22-2002, 05:24 AM #1
Hi everyone. I've got a little senario for you.
A 3 door truck has gone through a guard rail, rolled several times, and is laying on the two door side, horizontally (undercarriage facing up hill)on a 30 degree incline, approx 200 ft from the road, and there is a drop off approx 80 ft below the point of the vehicle. There is a crushed canopy on the p/u, making access through the rear window (slider) difficult. The p/u is leaking brake fluid, antifreeze, and gas. Inside there are 2 adult pts, both are unconscious in the front bucket seats, with visible injuries, and there is a big dog (Dobie, Rottie etc) moving freely in cab.
So my question is HOW do you get the big dog out of truck, without him chewing the h*ll out of you, so you can extricate the pts? Do you get the dog out first, so as not to get him any more excited, or secure the vehicle and deal with the leaking fluids?
I have two Dobies currently living with my parents, but if I was ever in a crash like this with them I think the only way you'd get them out is if they were unconscious or dead. The female you might be able to coax out, but the male would definately stay in there. The truck rolling over would only bring out his aggression, and the noise from everyone coming to extricate me would make him go into 'protection' mode.
04-22-2002, 11:30 AM #2
This reply is from my partner, a fully qualified veterinary nurse/technician......
Regardless of breed, some dogs will show absolutely no signs of aggression.
They maybe injured and in shock just like a human casualty would be. Signs include, but not limited to no response to external stimulation (noise, name calling, etc.), they will generally just sit and stare.
If injured though, they most definitely can be more aggressive and defensive. Precautions to take include approaching quietly and slowly to allow the dog to acknowledge you and to also allow you a chance to see its response. In some cases, females are preferrable to males when approaching due to an issue with "dominace". (Unless the female fears the dog- remember they can sense fear.)
Always attempt to bring the dog out instead of you going into the vehicle first. If unable to coax the dog out, then you will need to use a pole (broom, etc.) Drill two holes side by side in one end. Pass a rope through the first hole with a knot in it. The remainder makes a loop and gets passed through the other hole, so as the tail of the rope goes back to the operator. (We're making a temporary noose that is adjustable.)
Make the loop big enough to go over the head of the dog. Pull the tail of the rope to tighten it around the neck of the dog. Then gently attempt to lead the dog out on the end of the pole. (This means that at all times, you are a safe distance away from the dog.)
Don't forget that a metal pole is much better, as the more aggresive breeds can and will attempt to bite through the pole.
Where possible, sedation may be a better option if time allows....Luke
04-22-2002, 11:59 AM #3
Fire in the hole...
Maybe it is just me, but I am still thinking that small explosives would work just well in this scenario . The concussion, or shock wave, should be enough to render the dog UNC. And, if you place them in the right spot, you might be able to remove a post or two as well, making extrication a little quicker... I guess that drop under the vehicle might make for a bit of a hazard... you could use slightly larger explosives and hope the truck lands back up on the road .
Apart from that, I agree with Lutan, or Lutan's friend. 90% of the dogs I have dealt with at MVAs have either run off before we get there, or are in shock and not really a factor. I have never had one willingly stay inside a vehicle that was involved in anything more then a minor accident. Normally, they just as eager to get out as the driver or passengers. Further to roping the dog cowboy style, if the dog is being a problem, I believe you could tie a handy-dandy slip not of some kind and loop it over the end of a Pike Pole and snare the dog. Of course, once you have the dog tired off cribbing might be an issue... but a step chock should be enough ."No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
04-22-2002, 12:15 PM #4
I love it...Lets call out the SWAT team and use a concussion grenade...or better yet equip all Rescue trucks with explosives we could use them to right cars, knock out animals, and throw them at terrorist as they fly by....
I am with the vet try the slow gentle approach if the dog barks and looks ****ed send a probie.
04-22-2002, 12:23 PM #5
hey, visor down
A probie works... but I had planned to use one to light the explosives off... Either way, just remind him to keep his visor down."No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
04-22-2002, 12:25 PM #6
I dont know about arming a probie with matches to light a fuse...I was thinking we could get some army surplus timer fuses and a block or two of c-4....
04-22-2002, 12:28 PM #7
How about we give the probie two sticks... that way he can either
1) Rub them together to create a spark, lighting the explosives
2) Wave them in front of the dog, getting its attention so the rest of us can work."No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
04-22-2002, 03:16 PM #8
Explosives...hmm thanks Jason I hope I never crash on the Malahat. I'm having visions of some poor probie dancing around the outside of the vehicle with sticks in had, as my dog looks at him like he's LUNCH.
I know the device that you guys are talking about to get the dog out, I wonder with the amount of time it would take to create such a device and to rope the dog, it wouldn't just be easier to call an emergency vet or animal control or something to tranq the dog? In using this pole device would you exit the dog from the front or rear windshield? From the front you'd have to take him between the two victims, risking further injury to both of them, because if the dog is being aggressive in the first place I doubt he will come peacefully once you have the noose around his neck. From the back you'd have to remove the crushed canopy first, creating more noise and commotion which would probably increase the dogs state of agitation.
Which would you do first: secure the vehicle and deal with the leaking fluids or dog removal? Or would you attempt both at the same time?
Regardless of breed, some dogs will show absolutely no signs of aggression
I agree with you totally Lutan, that is actually why I used the male in the example. My female would like a burglar to death, I think she would be completely compliant and no problem to remove, or you would have to share space with her while you worked on the pts, but she would just sit there quietly and not pose a threat to anyone.
04-22-2002, 04:27 PM #9
Well, while your dog is busy eating the probie, we can work on the vehicle, no worries .
Stabilization or hazard control?
Easy, you get another probie to haul down the foam pre-connect and get him to man it while the rest of us crib. Once someone is free, they can concentrate on containing the fuel with the spill kit. Regardless, a hand line is going to be pulled, charged, and standing by at all times.
Come to think of it, the leaking fuel will add to the effect of the small explosives…. Nothing like a good light show to go with the BOOM."No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
04-22-2002, 05:34 PM #10
Well, hasn't this degenerated....!
We've all seen Police Academy? You saw how they deal with a cat up a tree? mmmmmm?
Wouldn't this be the ideal time to utilise those annoying by-standers that are always in your face?
04-22-2002, 05:43 PM #11
Send in the Blue Canaries!
They have a K9 unit...ought to be used to having dogs around.
04-22-2002, 10:13 PM #12
Don't get me started on cats....
Oh, don't get me started with a cat up a tree... we actually had one last year. It is a good thing dispatch didn't tone us for it, just radioed us.
"Malahat Chief or Duty Officer, contact dispatch."
"Go head dispatch, this is Malahat."
"Ya, I have a caller that is looking for assistance getting a cat out of a tree, any chance you can stop by and give him a hand, we wont stop calling."
"Roger dispatch, we will see what we can do."
So, me and my Captain get our gear on and start up the Engine and go pay this guy a visit, he was only 3 houses away. We get there, the guy tells us the cat us up a tree at the end of the road... points back towards the hall... it was up a tree at the end of the driveway. He didn't realize that the big building with the red trucks inside was a fire hall... Anyways, by now a few people have started to gather to watch the festivities. Plan A was to use small explosives to scare the cat down, but Rob (the captain) decided that might not work out with so many people watching. He suggested an 2 1/2, but then I pointed out we would have to wash and hang the hose if we did that.. so much for plan B. Next, we talked about using the chain saw and just cutting the tree down. But we where not sure how the environmental boys would take that. We thought about pulling a pre connect, but we didn't have any probies around to relay it once we where done. In the end, we pulled a 24 foot extension ladder and set it up. Then me and rob flipped a coin to see who would go get the cat. He lost . Meanwhile, a little larger crowd has formed. So, rob climbs up, making sure to wear gloves and have his visor down. You know how cats and their claws can be. Grabs the cat and climbs back down amidst a cheers from the gather crowd.
Last edited by firefighter26; 04-22-2002 at 10:15 PM."No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
04-23-2002, 12:08 AM #13
- Join Date
- Oct 1999
- Why? It's not like you're going to visit me! But I'm near Waco, Texas
we had a traffic accident couple of months ago that had a vehicle go up under the trailer of an 18-wheeler. fire dept checks on scene immediately requested animal control. there was a dog in the vehicle not injured. it stayed beside his owner majority of the time and didn't interfere at all during the extrication or anything. animal control eventually came out and got the dog.
in the training zone there is a lesson plan for animals involved in accidents. i don't know if it has exactly what you are asking about but it's a start.NREMT-P\ Reserve Volunteer Firefighter\Reserve Police Officer
Experts built the Titanic, amateurs built the Ark.
04-23-2002, 06:12 AM #14
Thanks Ryan I'll take a look
I am just wondering what other depts do when it comes to getting possibly aggressive animals out of vehicles so they can perform the extrication, and the order they'd do it in. This never actually happened. I just know my dog, and I was going over some things the other day, and thought damn... how would FF's get him out if they had to? When I drive with him, I don't usually put him in the box, hard on their ears.
I have a feeling that the powers that be, wouldn't want tranq guns kept on rescues.
04-23-2002, 08:48 AM #15
Tranq guns on rescues....
Now that's food for thought. Multiple uses- sedate the irate dogs, put the cat to sleep so it falls from the tree, sedate the hyped up probies going to their first accident, sedate the probies into submission so as they will hold and light the explosives, sedate the police after you've blocked the highway to all traffic, sedate the old captain after you insisted on trying "new" techniques........
On a serious note, with regards to the noose being used on a dog, around the neck area is pressure points. When the noose is tightened, in some cases it will tighten up on those points and calm the dog down. Obviously the very agro ones will fight no matter what, though.
A few years back our rescue truck hit a dog on the way back from a call. They picked up the animal to take it to a vet, unfortunately for the crew, other than the cabin, there was no where to put it. So there they were headign down the road, when one of the members ignored the instructions NOT to get too close to the dog, and suddenly he found himself with a dog attatched to his bottom lip. The dog bit his bottom lip and put his front fang right through!
Sedate the dog with the tranq gun before attempting mouth to mouth resuscitation!!!!Luke
04-23-2002, 10:44 AM #16
Speaking of animals in crashes, my concern includes a police dog inside a police vehicle that has crashed. Unconscious driver (the dog's Alpha leader) still inside. If it weren't injured or in shock as some of you have mentioned, wouldn't this dog be aggressive as it protects the PD officer?
Hopefully, it's in the rear section, behind the prisoner barrier or cage. The dog learns not to respond to other dogs or other police K-9 handlers through its training. You can't shoot the dog as a last resort; it's a badge-carrying law enforcement official.
Forum ModeratorRon Moore, Forum Moderator
04-23-2002, 12:46 PM #17
I've got Rotts and a nice lady one town over raises them as well.She had the misfortune of rolling her vehicle over on the way to the vet's.Two LARGE males,two females,and two pups.Fortunately she was only shaken up.We dealt with the dogs,the two pups just wiggled and kissed,the two females went with a little coaxing,but the two males at 150+ were another story.Rottweilers are by nature a handler protective animal.Had the handler not been able to communicate in this instance,I think we would have been in serious trouble.The control poles are nice,but have you ever put 150# of unhappy animal on the end of one?It's not a enjoyable experience.Couple that to the fact that these particular animals are so handler specific(Edie raises some of the finest German Blockheads in the world)they are going with her,ambulance or no.Again in this incident,transport was not required,but the males had no interest in complying with our wishes until Edie spoke to them.The ACO idea when available is a good one,we utilized it here.I agree with the others that a slow,methodical approach should let you know if you will have a problem or not.T.C.
04-23-2002, 04:51 PM #18If it weren't injured or in shock as some of you have mentioned, wouldn't this dog be aggressive as it protects the PD officer?
I have seen a police dog get seriously injured and still be aggressive to protect it's handler. I have a feeling that even if it were injured (shock would have to be fairly severe)it would still be aggressive maybe moreso.
Thanks Rescue, I was starting to think we only keep big dogs in Canada Do you have an emerg # to call AC? So they will come immediately, rather than taking their sweet time. I think it is probably better to keep them on scene until both the pt and the dog are are secured, even docile dogs can get aggressive if they fear for themselves or owner. I wouldn't have a problem climbing into the cab with the dog as long as it was compliant or tranq'ed, if it looked at me the wrong way I'm out. Obviously injuries in a roll over have to potential to be quite sever, I'm thinking about the amount of time you might have to wait to gain access to the pt's, and the possible complications as a result of the delay.
Rear windshield with crushed canopy, or front windshield over pts for dog removal? Assuming the dog has no intention of leaving it's owner. If you irritated it enough, it might come out of the cab for you, literally... good luck prying its jaws open.
Thanks for the input, keep it coming.
04-27-2002, 01:20 AM #19
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- Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
Hey, FF26, I resemble your Probie comments, MR!! . And I am really really starting to worry about you and your continued suggestions for use of explosives for extrication, etc. Of course yesterday (25 Apr) I would have agreed with you completely, and probably volunteered to set them too - probie or not!!
On the serious side though, the general consnsus is that the dog, unless seriously injured will most likely be just as impatient to get out of a MVA as any person, and in most cases they are already out. So far so good, non have been aggressive to any of our crews. (Knock on wood).
The idea of trying to make a catchers noose or something like that seems good initially, but I am not too sure of how well it would work, but you have to start somewhere I guess.
Drkblram in some instances you are right about how awake the dog might be after a rollover, but we had one a few weeks ago:
single car MVA rollover, on its roof (a Chev Citation?) with a dog, and he was in good shape. I guess it might have helped some that the driver and dog were family related (by marriage) to one of our FF's so the dog knew one of us at least.If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)
"I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD
"Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)
Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!
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04-27-2002, 02:37 AM #20
Fire in the Hole........
Hey, Malahat two-7,
I was wondering when you would stop by. Rock and Roll.
You shouldn't be overly concerned about my insistence on trying to use small explosives, or large explosives, for extrication purposes. You should know me, always willing to try something new... gotta have lots of tools in the tool box, right. However, when I start using my small explosives, or large explosives, to put out structure fires/bush fires/car fires, you might want to work a little harder at getting those probie stickers off.
Apart from that, I think I will be alright. Just remember, the pump panel is on the other side of the truck, right Rick?"No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
04-27-2002, 03:53 AM #21
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- Dec 2000
- F.L. CO,USA
If a police officer in charge of a canine outfit is hurt and unconcious in a confrontation of any type, Police officers are told to shoot the dog. The dog poses the biggest threat to your safety and the golden hour.
Last edited by eyecue; 04-27-2002 at 04:08 AM.
04-27-2002, 04:14 AM #22
Really... hmmm... they don't shoot the dogs up here. I think they have someone else that the dog will respond to, but I'm not absolutely certain. If I get a chance over the weekend I'll run the senario past one of the k9 units here (station is a block from my house) and see what they say.
I think you have to consider several things in this type of situation.
1) How much time elapsed before the actual call came in?
2) How much time did it take for the first crew to arrive?
3) The noise from rescuers may be enough to rowse the dog, they have the same fight or flight response we do, only they will use theirs to protect their owner as well as themselves.
4) What else is in the cab of the vehicle, if there is nothing that the will come loose and bang into the animal there is a very good chance that they will be banged up, but still conscious due to the amount of adren in its system, and being unrestrained could possibly prevent the animal from being pinned anywhere.
I'm sure that there are many other things as well... broken glass, projectiles, whether the restraints functioned properly in the rollover. I was in an MVA once and my seatbelt actually broke, pulled out all together. I wasn't seriously hurt (got rearended), I could have been.
04-28-2002, 11:28 AM #23
Time for the cop to chime in. Firstly, calling animal control is a nice idea, but around here, they probably aren't going to come help you at 3:00AM, and even if they would, their response time would be about a half hour. At some point, you have to make a hard decision, which life is more important? That of the injured human, or that of the animal that is refusing to allow you to treat the injured human? If you had a human in that vehicle doing the same thing, you would eventually turn the problem over to the cops and let them exercise their options.
Ok, with that in mind, I would suspect the police would try to lure the animal away and secure it if they could. The next option would be to try to pepper spray the animal to see if it would retreat (better to have pepper spray on your victim while he/she is being treated than no treatment at all). If they run out of options, I am afraid that the life of the dog will be sacrificed in the hopes of saving the human.
As for Police K-9 dogs being "badge carrying officers", while it is true that we consider them to be "one of us", we do not lose sight of the fact that the reason we often deploy a dog is that it's life is more expendable than that of a human. That is why dogs are used for high risk building searches and such. Of course we do not recklessly want to get our K-9s killed, but if we need to sacrifice the dog to keep from getting an officer killed, that is what has to be done. So, in the case of an aggressive K-9 protecting its injured handler in a car crash, it is just as likely that if all other options fail, and it is a matter of the injured officer's life or death, the dog will be removed from the equation by whatever method is necessary.Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
"People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter
04-30-2002, 03:03 AM #24
Hi everyone, first thanks for all your replies.
I got some info regarding K9 units, and what to do if they are involved in a roll over incident. I was told to do the following:
1) Call for another K9 unit.
2) Have the responding K9 unit officer handle the dog, then proceed with the medical needs of the injured officer.
Always take care of the dog first then the officer. Otherwise, the rescuer is at risk because the K9 dog will protect the car and especially their handler.
04-30-2002, 09:26 AM #25
Temptaker,a very good set of ideas to which I will add one.If you have Police K-9 units in your or neighboring communities involve the handlers in your training programs.That way you get used to the dog,and in as much as he will,the dog will adjust to the funny looking creatures we call firefighters.Even my dogs will eyeball me a second time when I'm in my turnouts.Imagine what you look like to a Police dog,one kingsize arm sleeve.T.C.
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