1. #1
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    Default Cordless saw training info

    Hi all,

    My volunteer brigade is about to purchase the Dewalt 18v reciprocating saw. We are not a rescue accredited brigade but if need be we will use the saw at rescue scenes or other incidents when required.

    What I am looking for is any training packages or information that others have put togther on the use of cordless saws. I have read the five part series that Ronald Moore has written and the information contained in that is excellent, in fact some of that info actually helped us to decide that we should purchase a cordless saw (No one else in this state carries one yet). I was thinking of just taking out the best bits of the stuff contained in that series but thought I would ask if anyone else has anything, particularly in reference to tool handling, safety, actual cutting techniques etc etc. Everything from the very basic up.

    If you have any info which may assist I would be very happy to hear from you, either on this forum or at my email address mattb@chariot.net.au

    Cheers

    Matthew Bonser
    Lieutenant
    Morphett Vale Country Fire Service
    http://www.mvcfs.asn.au

  2. #2
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    Default CORDLESS SAW TRINING

    MATT, TWO TIPS WHICH YOU PROBABLY ALREADY KNOW, BUT ARE WORTH REPEATING. CORDLESS OR CORDED CIP SAWS THIS APPLIES. PURCHASE GOOD QUALITY BLADES. BI-METTALIC SUCH AS LENOXX HACKMASTER, MILWAUKIE OR THE DEWALT BLADES. YOU MAY HAVE OTHER FAVORITES DOWN UNDER. 10 TEETH PER INCH WORK WELL. THEY DON'T TEND TO CLOG AS BADLY AS FINE TOOTHED BLADES. 2nd KEEP THE SWIVEL FOOT TIGHT AGAINST THE SURFACE YOUR CUTTING ON. IF YOU DO NOT THE SAW STARS TO BOUNCE AND THE PROBABILITY OF BLADE BREAKAGE INCREASES. BILL L. RESCUE INSTRUCTOR, MARYLAND USA

  3. #3
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    Reciprocating saws are GREAT for extrication and other rescue work. They will take a roof off a car in no time. I would rather use a riciprocating saw that is corded. I have noticed that the battery powered saws ofter run out of power prior to you finishing the job.

  4. #4
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    Continuing cordless saw research now focuses on extending the life of the cordless saw at rescue scenes. One way to do this is to NOT buy an 18v but rather purchase a 24-volt DeWalt saw. There is a noticeable increase in run time with the heavier-duty battery.

    The 24v also gives you the option of buying the AC/DC converter. At a crash scene, that means that you can start with a 'cordless' saw and transition to a 'corded' unit with the same saw.

    The most promising new equipment to date for extended battery life was just introduced at the Fire Dept Instructors Conference. A company in Lima Ohio called Aircraft Dynamics is expanding their line of battery packs for fire and rescue applications. I have two of their prototype battery packs and have used one on my DeWalt 24v saw in day-long extrication training sessions and never ran out of juice.

    Check out their original product to get an idea of what they are up to. They now have a brand new fire-rescue product catalog that you can request.

    Write to them at info@aircraftdynamics.com

    Web location is http://www.aircraftdynamics.com/new_page_5.htm

    Call my contact, Mike Jones at 800-456-9244 for a quick response.

    This stuff offers us a new opportunity to extend the capability of our cordless saws. The battery pack has a programmable chip that can run the heavy-duty battery at 12v, 18v, or 24v. They are tooling up to support Milwaukee, DeWalt and other cordless units so that is a real good thing. There is a floodlight attachment, a florescent light attachment and even a ventilating fan that can run off the Robopak. Good potential for confined space work or lighting inside a vehicle.

    Anyway, some food for thought for all.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

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    Default

    To digress from the original question, and to also be a bit confrontational- this whole topic raises serious concerns with non accreditted or trained personnel or depts attempting road accident rescue.

    Especially with the way car technology is changing today- why does a another service need to have more than an "awareness" level of training. Leave the specialised rescue to the trained depts.

    There are so many variables and points that need to be factored in before cutting into vehicles....

    I have been an IC at a numerous MVA's where non trained personnel have attempted to gain access into a car using hydraulics and other tools, and it has made our job harder- not easier in some circumstances. I have witnessed personnel not even look at basic safety/hazard identification and elimination and move straight into spreading and popping, etc.
    Luke

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    Default Rec saws

    The ACTFB uses both Dewalt and Milwaukie? rec saws and we have found them to be excellent for many applications from USAR to road accident rescue (RAR). They are especially useful in situations where space is limited. However I must agree with Lutan, only accredited rescuers should be attempting rescue. The tools u use may only seem like glorified cordless drills but plenty of people have needed our help for making the same mistake of under estimating these tools.
    I also agree with the selection of quality blades. The white rescue rated blades are the best in my opinion but that is just an opinion.
    my last point is that rec saws can be noisy and creat a lot of vibration. sometimes you gotta do it but if not consider your patient, they're already scared and in pain. Be careful if cutting glass, heaps of fine fragments, use your patient protectors or remove glass prior to use. regards Mav.

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    Some of my Points on this thread:

    1- YODA speaks truth and wisdom, Blade selection can be as important as the tool Selection! Good news is that NEW and Better Blades are coming out all the time. but a qualiyt Saw Blade can really make the difference, Like in the old TV Commercial it is where the Rubber makes the road! So in this case it is where the teeth that meet the metal that makes the difference!

    2- Ron Moore brings us so very good new, Batteries are the Plusses and Minusses of these wonderful tool! I am surprized or maybe I missed it, but DeWalt has a very good video that users of any brand of Cip Saw could get use out of, and Mr. Moore had a hand in making. Contact DeWalt at www.dewalt.com/us/events/fire_rescue/ and the web sight has info on how to get this.

    3- As for "un-Certified" rescuer responding, well I have mixed feeling there. HOLD ON, Let me say the more training the better, Having the equipment to do the Job is important. I am unsure of the circumstances in Australia (Sp?) But I am from the rural US, some how I believe that Australia has more of the same problems that is Distance. Before I would condem them I would have to know more about where there nearest certified Squad is, How is there working relationship with that squad, Are there Mutual aid agreements in place. IS this something they are working together at??? Lutan and other I agree that certified is better and the way to go but got to take a look at the greater picture. If this is a Hinderence to the team becoming certified then that is bad, but if they are in the Middle or nowhere and the chances of a certifield squad getting there in a timely manor then I have to support doing the best you can do as you move towards the Certification, if you have the Certified resources then that is the obvious way to go. we need to remember in MVAs time is still a vital componet, certainly not the only componet, but still a component. PEASE REMEMBER before you chop down the wood to make a cross to Crucify me, I am not fully aware of the circumstances and would be glad to be educated rather than crucified. but I also think all persons deserve an reasonable RESCUE EFFORT. Some how I just know this last point will stir up controversy! I am NOT against Certified Knowledgable and well trained RESCUERS, and I have no idea why this specific Squad isn't I woudl certainly say it should be there goal OK Let the replies Fly!
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

  8. #8
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    Default

    Does anybody have an information on the "PowerHawk" adapter? I am looking to find other than propaganda info. They use a Millwalkee unit with it's standard power pack, it also has an attachment to connect to the "PowerHawk" power supply. The add states "Increase your cutting time from minutes to hours". This info will be usefull to all who use the "PowerHawk" allready.
    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

  9. #9
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    Hello All,

    Thanks for all of the good info so far however I am still looking for any complete training guides or more general info that could possibly be turned into a powerpoint presentation with pics etc on the basic use of cordless recip saws.

    >1- YODA speaks truth and wisdom, Blade selection can be as important >as the tool Selection!

    I understand the choice of blades is very important and I am keen to hear from those in Australia as to what blades you choose and where you get them from. We are currently working with our local supplier to trial a number of blades when we train so we can gain our own opinions. If the Australian guys can give me a few brand names we will try and get those and see how they perform.

    >3- As for "un-Certified" rescuer responding, well I have mixed >feeling there.

    Our brigade is not rescue accredited and does not have a full rescue stowage kit, therefore we do not generally perform rescue. We do however have some members trained in Vehicle Accident Rescue who with the correct equipment are able to. Our rescue resources come from the Metropolitan Fire Service who we work very closely with (automatic mutual aid), they normally arrive a minute or two before us at vehicle accidents and do all of the extrication, we generally only assist them and provide fire cover. I should have made it clearer in my first post as to when we would actually use a recip saw. I see us mainly using it at structure incidents for gaining access to properties or through roofs (could have used the other week at a church fire) and also vehicle fires where it is often neccesary to gain access to the bonnet or boot of a vehicle. Without any rescue tools sometimes this can be difficult.

    Our brigade realise that we will often no be able to use the recip saw for primary rescue work but we do believe that there will be times when it could come in handy, I'm sure those of you that have a recip saw could think of occassions it has been useful to have on the scene of other types of incidents.

    I am all for safety though and believe that no one should touch a piece of equipment unless they are thouroughly trained and conversant with the tool, this is why I am after any info that you guys can supply. If you have anything that could be useful I would really like to hear from you.

    Cheers

    Matt Bonser
    Lieutenant
    Morphett Vale Country Fire Service
    http://www.mvcfs.asn.au

  10. #10
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    Default

    Originally posted by lutan
    To digress from the original question, and to also be a bit confrontational- this whole topic raises serious concerns with non accreditted or trained personnel or depts attempting road accident rescue.

    Especially with the way car technology is changing today- why does a another service need to have more than an "awareness" level of training. Leave the specialised rescue to the trained depts.

    Well lutan, you would not be very comfortable in the State of Ohio in the good ol' USA... we have NO recognized certification levels in any form of rescue. While I have attended and even taught numerous extrication classes, I have no idea what level of training I possess. So, I guess we have no "trained departments" to do the "specialized rescues" in this part of the world. We just have departments with members who have had a lot of training.

    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  11. #11
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    Default rec saws

    Guys, no offence intended. I know ALL rescuers have the best intentions and I must admit tat in Australia we have a lot of distance and too few people so if a "registered" rescuer is not close at hand then any help is better than none.
    To back up other responses, blades make all the difference and I would say that the blades that come with the Dewalts are no doubte good but they are task specific. What we need as rescuers is a multi purpose blade so we dont have to change for each and every task.
    With reference to the bonnet/ boot access. yeah it will work but so will small gear like hydrant bars, crow bars and buster bars so if you want to gain access Keep It Simple. If all else fails pry an opening then use bolt cutters to release the mechanism. Always remember we need to think "outside the box" what if this fails or that fails? what will we do? Mechanical aids are great but we still need to be able to function without them.

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    If you are going to buy cordless, make sure you have spare batteries. We have a spare for each of our cordless saws. Also, take a look at the Milwaukee blades called " the torch". We have used this blade in drills, cut through the nader bolt, and then performed a total roof removal with the same blade. the Dewalt 24 volt system is nice because you can buy the 24volt/110 battery pack as a backup.

  13. #13
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    We have 2 corded and 1 18v cordless. we are now wishing we had gotten the 24 volt, but at the time we recieved the grant to get it, we could not find one. we use Lenox Demolition blades, they run about 13 bucks a blade. cordless has yet to be used on the scene, but the corded has been used along with Phoenix tool to cut a trooper out. go with the 24 volt! get the quck change (tool-less) blade style if you can. 18 volt batteries are bout $98 and i think 24 is a little more than that. Also buy extra feet! we have broken several feet. now we keep 2 spare feet for each saw.

  14. #14
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    University of Extrication
    Reciprocating Saw Training Program

    Skills Checklist

    OK rescue gang, here's your homework assignment. This is an outline I created to promote reciprocating saw utilization in the department I work for. For the purposes of this special training program, the vehicle is a two-door model. (If all you have is a four-door, then modify the sidewall removal tasks) The 2-door vehicle is positioned for this drill resting on its four wheels on a level surface. Both doors are closed and locked to simulate that the doors are jammed.

    Complete the following preliminary assignments utilizing hand tools provided by your agency;
    vehicle stabilization-
    tempered glass removal-
    electrical system shutdown-

    Complete the following tasks utilizing only a reciprocating saw and a forcible entry pry bar;

    Doors:
    open a simulated jammed door by sawing the door off at the hinges-

    open a second jammed door by sawing through the safety lock and latch pin assembly-

    Sidewallthree-door evolution)
    Move the sidewall of a vehicle outward or move the sidewall of the vvehicle outward and down below seat cushion level-

    Totally remove the second sidewall of the vehicle-

    Windshield:
    Total removal of the laminated windshield-

    Roof:
    Total removal of the roof-

    Steering Wheel:
    Remove a portion of the steering wheel ring-

    Remove the complete steering wheel by severing the supporting spokes-

    Steering Column:
    Sever the steering column near the edge of the dashboard-

    Pedals:
    Remove a brake pedal-

    Remove an emergency brake pedal-

    Seats:
    Remove the seatback of one seat

    Remove the seat cushion unit and floor track of one seat-

    Hood:
    Open the hood (but the hood latch mechanism must remain closed and latched)-

    Trunk:
    Open the trunk(but the trunk latch mechanism must remain closed and latched)-

    Passenger Compartment Access:
    Enter the open trunk and remove all obstructions so that one member of the team may enter the trunk, move through into the passenger compartment and exit from the interior of the vehicle-

    Completion of these tasks utilizing the reciprocating saw as required demonstrates above average competency with the use of this tool and should serve as an acceptable department-level training program.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

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