"Why the Towers Fell"

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Originally posted by fdmavrik
You know I was reading a book, Last One Down, you know one of the guysmaking a killing on the deal, e gave a Numbers style account of the names and ranks, page after page worth, what is surprising is how mainly firefighters and Chiefs died, not in betweens, anyone care to explain? Seems to me on a glance of the list that for every say 2 or 3 firefighters should have been an LT, for ever 2 or 3 firefighters should have been an MPO, etc.

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Summary of firemen LODD's at the WTC:
Chiefs 23
Chapl. 1
Capt. 22
LT 46
FF 251
TTL 343

Now do the math.
For every Capt. or LT, there were 3.69 FF's.
For every Chief, there were 2.95 LT's or Capt's (companies).

So what's your point, Larry?

Now, why don't you answer the original question? What would you have done?

Stay Safe

Maybe the title should have been "How" the Towers Fell, rather than "why". Why they fell was because a handfull of extremist a**holes that are jealous of our way of life and status in todays world took advantage of a situation and hit us below the belt when we did not expect it. How the Towers fell was a tragically timed combination of events that had to occur-in sequence- that stretched back to 1966 when they first started construction on the Towers. To learn from this means to change the way we do things in construction, airport security, firefighting, et al. Who knows, if we build a 110 floor building underground, someday someone would figure out a way to circumvent security and destroy that also. History has shown that for every "once-in-a lifetime" occurance, there is always another that follows, whether it be a natural disaster, terrorism, world war, whatever, all we do is dig deeper for more meaningful superlatives to try to express the way we feel. Can it happen again, will it happen again? Certainly it will, but that's a different time in a different place. Don't let the armchair quarterbacks rule the day, where were the engineers the day the Towers fell? Certainly not inside, like the 343 Brothers were that day, doing their jobs. Don't dishonor those firefighters, or anyone else for that matter, by saying things weren't done the way they should have been, things were *done* the way they *done*, period. Until my feet are in the fire, I'm shuttin' up. God Bless all the men and women murdered that day, for they are the true Heroes.
Lt. David Walters
Miami Fire-Rescue
Sta. 10-A

Amen, brother.

<So what's your point"

SO no MPO's died, the ratio is wrong for LT's to FF's why weren't they with their crews or what gives?


"Now, why don't you answer the original question? What would you have done?"

You got your answer, re-rezad the post, it is quite clear,

"So what's your point"

at least 24 less guys would have died, maybe a hundred.

Now, why don't you answer the original question asked of you PA FIREFIGHTER? "? What would you have done?"

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Originally posted by fdmavrik
“
“fdquint - common sense? get some!”

Care to take on some specific points, can you???? You know common sense stuff, go ahead.

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Specific?? Yeah, I'll get specific on you!!

1. It's not nice to be rude -- learned it in Kindergarten. COMMON SENSE

2. Don't go where you're not welcome. Obviously you're not welcome here -- learned it from my parents. COMMON SENSE

3. SPELLING for God's sake, weren't you an editor??? -- learned it at my elementary school. COMMON SENSE

4. Treat the dead with respect. -- unlearned, just a normal human reaction. Do you make fun of the mentally challenged in restaurants also?? COMMON SENSE

5. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." -- learned it at Sunday School. COMMON SENSE



Consider your points "Taken on".

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Originally posted by fdfire
SO no MPO's died, the ratio is wrong for LT's to FF's why weren't they with their crews or what gives?

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Let's see ... either a LT or Capt. was w/ every 3.7 FF's. I'd say they were w/ their crews. Considering each company has 1 Captain and 2 LT's, all of the ratios are almost right on. Throw in the fact that most companies were double staffed due to shift change, and many FF's responded on their own ... there are a ton of variables. Nonetheless, you're wrong. The ratios are reasonable.

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Originally posted by fdfire
You got your answer, re-rezad the post, it is quite clear,

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Yep, you would have staged in New Jersey and let all the civilians fend for themselves. Does staging in the next state give you a higher ISO rating, Larry?

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Originally posted by fdfire
at least 24 less guys would have died, maybe a hundred.

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And a few thousand more civilians would have died. It's good to know that you're not willing to risk your life for a civilian. That way, if you ever show up in my town, I'll know not to count on you.

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Originally posted by fdfire
Now, why don't you answer the original question asked of you PA FIREFIGHTER? "? What would you have done?"

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What would I have done? I have no freakin' idea. I probably would have done the same thing that was done. But then again, I'm not on here second guessing what was done, like you are.

Why don't you give a straight-forward answer and spell out step by step what you would have done, since you think you know it all.

Keep trying to put out fires w/ books, Larry. Maybe someday it will work.

Stay Safe

Well this thread went to hell on a freight train.

Lardass*,

It must be tough realizing your opinions are loathed by the entire fire community. You continue to create new names and continue to post. What makes it so easy for everyone to see, is this, your total hatred and disdain for the FDNY. For years you have spouted your swill for no other reason than to draw attention to yourself.

You have been kicked out of every fire publication you ever worked for. You’ve been kicked out of these forums more than Billy Martin. You reported a member of these forums to their superiors, why? You continue to come back here, why? What is it you think you have to offer the fire service?

At what point will you put your name to your words so the poor people who pay you for your ISO consultation services will see who they are dealing with. Have a few more shots and think about where your life has gone. Once you see just how pitiful you really are, use one more shot to put yourself out of our misery.

SO no MPO's died, the ratio is wrong for LT's to FF's why weren't they with their crews or what gives?

SO WHAT ABOUT MPOS?

Let's see ... either a LT or Capt. was w/ every 3.7 FF's. I'd say they were w/ their crews. Considering each company has 1 Captain and 2 LT's, all of the ratios are almost right on. Throw in the fact that most companies were double staffed due to shift change, and many FF's responded on their own ... there are a ton of variables. Nonetheless, you're wrong. The ratios are reasonable.
OH I’M WRONG HUH, TH RATIOS STAY THE SAME WHEN OFF DUTY GUYS COME IN TOO HUH?
quote:

Originally posted by fdfire
You got your answer, re-rezad the post, it is quite clear,



Yep, you would have staged in New Jersey and let all the civilians fend for themselves. Does staging in the next state give you a higher ISO rating, Larry?
SO YOU FIGHT ALL YOR FIRES WITH COMMAND INSIDE THE FIRE BUILDING? SO THIS SHOULD BE THE NORM FOR THE FUTURE, PLANE HITS BUILDING PUT AS MANY CHIEFS INSIDE AS POSSIBLE. FIGURES YO’D SUGEST THAT.

quote:

Originally posted by fdfire
at least 24 less guys would have died, maybe a hundred.



And a few thousand more civilians would have died. It's good to know that you're not willing to risk your life for a civilian. That way, if you ever show up in my town, I'll know not to count on you.
YEAH HAVING COMMAND IN A SAFE PLACE WOULD COST MORE LIVES HUH? WHAT THEY UP TERE PULLIN GPEOPLE OUT TOO, IF SO THEY WERE NOT IN COMMAND WERE THEY. YOU EVER BEEN TO A REAL FIRE SPORT?
quote:

Originally posted by fdfire
Now, why don't you answer the original question asked of you PA FIREFIGHTER? "? What would you have done?"



What would I have done? I have no freakin' idea. I probably would have done the same thing that was done. But then again, I'm not on here second guessing what was done, like you are.

Gee what would I have done, SECOND GUESSING HUH, LET’S HERE THE GUYS IN CHARGE SECOND GUESS SHALL WE? common sense huh, let’s ask chief’s who were there.
Because of the collapse of the World Trade Center towers, fire chiefs around the world will be less likely to send firefighters to the upper floors of burning skyscrapers, the former fire commissioner of New York City said Saturday.
Otherwise, strategies for battling such fires are unlikely to change much in the wake of the terrorist attacks on the twin towers, said Thomas Van Essen, who retired in January.
``If there was a fire today in a high-rise in New York City, we would respond in the way we have for the last 30 years,'' he said before addressing a New Jersey City University forum on the trade center disaster.
“No one prepares for jet planes crashing into their buildings.''”
Go or no go? He says:
``If you have something of this enormity, if the (Sears) tower in Chicago got hit by an enormous jet plane, the chiefs handling the fire will be very wary about sending people up to such high floors,'' Von Essen said.”
He did suggest better radios, but they knew they sucked before the event and dual plumbing to sprinklers, the math and reality of such a thing ought to be interesting if at all possible.
“The trade center attack also highlighted the need for better radio communications for firefighters, Von Essen said. He noted that many of the firefighters who died in the collapse never heard the order to get out.
He added that Sept. 11 also demonstrated the importance of having more than one water source for sprinkler systems. The jetliners that crashed into the twin towers sliced through the vertical pipes that were the sole source of water for sprinkler systems. “
So where did all the money collected go:
http://www.firetimes.com/story.asp?FragID=3329

"True of false one month after 9/11 Houston allowed a floor on a 42 story highrise to burn for 1 hour and 47 minutes? Yep. No water applied at all. Did it fall? Nope.
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True. No plane hit it either. "

SO NO PLANE HITS LIFE GOES ON EVERYONE GOES HOME, GLAD YOU AGREE

"You guys know him better than I do. "

NO THEY DON'T

"if someone says something logical, such as the points made above, if we are to be honest with ourselves, we must see if they meet our test of beliefs.
"

AMEN

For the love of god, Larry just answer the questions. You answer a question w/ a question and answer that w/ another question. Sorry, but spewing out a whole bunch of what may or may not be technical mumbo jumbo which we're not sure you even understand does not count as an answer. I'll make it simple for you ...

1 Chief to apx. every 3 company officers
1 company officer to apx. every 3.7 firemen

Is that simple enough for you?

Now, back to what would you have done ... okay, you have the chiefs outside ... congratulations, you're a freakin' fire genius ...

NOW WHAT?

Furthermore, I've determined from your rantings that high-rise buildings, in general, unless hit by a plane, do not collapse ... so why do you not set up command in the lobby of a high-rise fire where a plane is not involved? Which is it?

Stay Safe

Quote:

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Originally posted by JTL
Well this thread went to hell on a freight train.

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Yes, good point ... with myself partly to blame. On that note, I'm done. What's the point? Larry just makes stuff up to fit his party line anyway.

Stay Safe

Quote:

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high-rise buildings, in general, unless hit by a plane, do not collapse ... so why do you not set up command in the lobby of a high-rise

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BINGO!

People, people, please do not fall into the trap that this piece of trash has set for all of you. He makes remarks that he knows will agitate you and get your blood pumping.

He has used at least 6 alias' that I know of. He claims that he has influenced more people than would respond to a thousand alarm tumbleweed fire, when in reality he couldn't coax a horsefly on to steaming pile of horse crap.

He will be swatted away by the Webteam when they look at this forum just like he has been all the other times. It is only a matter of time....Larry.

This guy Larry Stevens....does he live in New Auburn, Wisconsin?;)

Two (or more) can play his game. :D

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Larry, if you were first on the scene at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, what would you have done?

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Same as the "Tumbleweed Conflagration"...cleaned out his pants.

Boy oh boy! You people really disappoint me. With all the "professional" Monday morning quarter-backs swiftly seeking a position of high esteem concerning 9/11, you really think this butt-head needs to be answered? Just consider him among the rest of the throw-out trash for the monday garbage pick-up. Better, more Knowledgeable, more Educated Butt-Heads have explained their reasons.......why fire on this jerk. The bottom line is, and will continue to be:(unless) YOU HAD KNOWLEDGE THAT TWO 100 STORY BUILDINGS WERE TO COLLASPE AFTER A TERRORIST ATTACK AND KILL OVER 3,000 PEOPLE INCLUDING 341 + OF FDNY'S bravest, before the attack then you've got nothing to say! It's over, our guys won't be back, and this crap about HOW or WHY sickens me. Nothing will be garnered by supposition......should another attack occur, it will be of a different occurrance. I'm sure most of the Air-Heads out there can figure that one
out easily enough. I would like to request only one thing personally.........Leave the LODD's and their Tomb be for a while. They deserve that much at least!
:(

Meaning no personal disrespect......."Give it a friggin' break!"

Boy oh boy! You people really disappoint me. With all the "professional" Monday morning quarter-backs swiftly seeking a position of high esteem concerning 9/11, you really think this butt-head needs to be answered? Just consider him among the rest of the throw-out trash for the monday garbage pick-up. Better, more Knowledgeable, more Educated Butt-Heads have explained their reasons.......why fire on this jerk. The bottom line is, and will continue to be unless) YOU HAD KNOWLEDGE THAT TWO 100 STORY BUILDINGS WERE TO COLLASPE AFTER A TERRORIST ATTACK AND KILL OVER 3,000 PEOPLE INCLUDING 341 + OF FDNY'S bravest, before the attack then you've got nothing to say! It's over, our guys won't be back, and this crap about HOW or WHY sickens me. Nothing will be garnered by supposition......should another attack occur, it will be of a different occurrance. I'm sure most of the Air-Heads out there can figure that one
out easily enough. I would like to request only one thing personally.........Leave the LODD's and their Tomb be for a while. They deserve that much at least!

Well,

Good Ole Larry couldn't let it be..........

Never in my life have I seen one person disrespect so many.:mad:

Larry...you obviously have no clue about the brotherhood. Spout all you want about your ideas and logic(if it can be called such) I can't imagine one brother listening to you due to your total disrespect for the fallen.

FDNYRR - I appreaciate your comments and will end mine here. Unfortunately Good Ole Larry has a way of pushing us beyond the point of no comment.

Oh yeah ....Larry .... Joan Rivers is looking for someone to help with her act. I submiited your "resume".

hfd66truck
Don't end it because of comments by the previous two people. They don't have to read it and their intent is to stifle any conversation. Steer the thread back to topic. In the future these threads will get worse unless they are talked about.

I would have done the same thing that the Chiefs of FDNY did that day. Other than i would have had the staging in lets say building 7 of the WTC complex. But i would have had as many people in there as i could to try and save some civilains.. FDQUINT, you would have done the same thing if you were a true firefighter, you wouldnt just sit there and let the freaking fire burn. Real firefighters know the dangers of the job and you know what! THEY STILL PUT THERE LIVES ON THE LINE!. thats all i gots to say. Stay Safe:)