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  1. #1
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Post "Why the Towers Fell"

    The program aired on April 30th on your local PBS station. Of course, depending on your emotional disposition, you chose either to watch....or not watch.

    It's the same with threads...you can choose to read OR not to read!

    You DO have that choice.
    Last edited by NJFFSA16; 05-01-2002 at 08:02 PM.
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  2. #2
    JTL
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    It will be interesting but I probably won't watch. Just can't handle it.

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    "Why the Towers Fell"

    Cuse a really huge plane hit them, so there isn't really much to be learned from a once in a lifetime if that occurrance, is there really?

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    Originally posted by fdquint
    "Why the Towers Fell"

    Cuse a really huge plane hit them, so there isn't really much to be learned from a once in a lifetime if that occurrance, is there really?
    Mother of God-exactly how callous can one person be?Guess we all have an answer.....And even if there was the remotest chance fdquint was even .0001% right this is the wrong way to make the point.....
    Rob

    "Well done is better than well said" - B. Franklin

  5. #5
    Forum Member DaFAO's Avatar
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    Angry

    Originally posted by fdquint
    "Why the Towers Fell"

    Cuse a really huge plane hit them, so there isn't really much to be learned from a once in a lifetime if that occurrance, is there really?

    this is exactly why people die, and why the fire service can not shake the generalization that we are generally knuckle-draggers...i hope i never ever live in your first due.

    we all said worcester and meridian plaza were once in a life time things...we said the first wtc bombing was once in a lifetime...hrm...

  6. #6
    bke
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    Thumbs down In bad taste...

    fdQUIT!
    BKE
    Proud to be an American.

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    Why did the buildings fall, how obvious can it get. Do we really need someone to tell us the obvious?

    Yeah you're right, in the future, if a fully sprinkled highrise building gets hit by a commercial jet and you have 6 to 10 floors of fire and the standpipe is out plus you know the build has a half axed fire proofing of the steel and a second plane hits during attack you should?

    A. Hand jack 5 inch up 90 floors and fight it
    B. Learn from the past and write it off 99% of the people will self
    evacuate anyway
    C. Risk every emergency worker possible
    D. It ain't going to happen again so why give a damn
    E. Academics and TV shows always have wonderful after thoughts about
    unforseen events and follow whatever they come up with

    No one ever said Worcester or Meridian plaza were once in a life time fires. Actually quite predictable. Unsprinked buildings, sealed tight buildings, no alarm systems that allowed fire progress, lousy accountability systems, use of 30 minute not 60 minute bottles, freelancing, the only way to have a loss of life was to add firefighters into the buildings. If either fire wasn't atacked what difference in outcome would have resulted other than a few fathers going home that didn't? How could you be surprised?

    Did Meridian Plaza collapse? Did the B of A in LA? Nope, not the fire loading or structural attack.

    Yeah it is real sad guys died but hopefully common sense will prevail in the future.

  8. #8
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    Default Truly unbelievable...

    Common sense and cool heads should prevail.....

    But at this point I have very little of either....If ever I had any....

    FDQUINT: Let me be the first to say you really are a poor piece of protoplasm. That I indeed have something that summarizes you and all your thoughts.....as soon as I can get it outta the crack of me arse I'll show it to ya'.

    I would say more, however you being the obvious bottom feeder you are, would get too much of a rise.
    Rob

    "Well done is better than well said" - B. Franklin

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    Well that should pretty much end this thread since all of the answers were provided by the 1000 alarm tumbleweed - (credit goes to one of the FDNY Best) fire expert.

    GOD Bless FDNY and ALL of the Lost FDNY Brother's and thier families

    FTM, PTB, RFB
    Last edited by FF.1205; 04-30-2002 at 03:00 AM.

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    NJFFS_A16

    Thanks for the info.

    fdquint

    Words can't express how your obvious lack of respect for those that died on 9/11, and for those that live on, turn my stomach. I lost friends and loved ones in that collapse, frankly it's insulting to see it referred to so trivially. I can't believe that you call yourself a fire fighter. Certainly if I had to describe you from your post the one word that comes to mind is MAGGOT. Think about what they feed on... I'm sure you'll get the point.

  11. #11
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    You should be ashamed of your remarks Larry (or should I call you John Walker Lindh??).
    Last edited by StayBack500FT; 05-01-2002 at 11:00 AM.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

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    all of the answers were provided by the 1000 alarm tumbleweed - (credit goes to one of the FDNY Best) fire expert.
    FF 1205,

    Stop, you're making me blush.

  13. #13
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    Thumbs down

    It's like that commercial on TV, "This medicine cannot cure herpes and it could come back even with extensive treatment"

    Unbelieveable.
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry
    Captain, Rescue Company 1
    City of Bayonne (NJ) Fire Department

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    Angry How could you?

    Originally posted by fdquint
    "Why the Towers Fell"

    Cuse a really huge plane hit them, so there isn't really much to be learned from a once in a lifetime if that occurrance, is there really?
    If you watched the special last night you would know that the towers fell not just because "a really huge plane hit them” it was a combination of things that caused them to fall. You can't be a Firefighter or an American for that matter you have no heart!
    What do you mean there is nothing to learn for the horrible tragedy? There is a lot to learn and a lot of changes departments can make in the high-rise operations and in future building construction. "Once in a lifetime" I pray your right but no one knows what the future holds.

    If you are a firefighter I hope somewhere along the way you find some common sense and some compassion for not only your fellow firefighters but your citizens you serve as well!

    God Bless All and Stay Safe Always


  15. #15
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    It seems as our world is plagued by once in a lifetime incidents - lessons learned from this incident will be passed on to the next generations of "lifetimes". It's called progression. Past lessons learned that brought about improvements: Our Lady of Angels, Coconut Grove Nightclub, Circus tent fire, and .............

    All "once in a lifetime" occurrences have brought about much needed changes. It's too bad so many people have to lose their lives to bring about change. Hopefully history doesn't repeat itself like this - in my lifetime or the next generations.

    fdquint - common sense? get some!

  16. #16
    JTL
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    History repeats itself to those unwilling to learn. I argue that this could occur again and that, in spite of fdquints assertions, there is much to be learned, though perhaps not in a traditional sense.

    On a personal note, this quint guy, assuming he is LS will suffer for what he has said and done. It is inevitable.

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    “If you watched the special last night you would know that the towers fell not just because "a really huge plane hit them” it was a combination of things that caused them to fall”
    I didn’t
    Oh I see, and remove the “really huge plane” hitting them does it still fall?
    Thousands of gallons of jet fuel wasn’t what the non-work sprinkler system was designed to handle.
    No building is designed to handle that impact and that much fire with no suppression efforts, so what was the surprise in the collapse?
    The “really huge plane” is the key, nothing larger than a 737 was allowed to fly out of Reagan until last week, why? Because it takes a really huge plane to do what it did. So is it better to get rid of all the buildings in the US or the really huge planes?
    All tings considered to only kill 3000 with four planes is pretty amazing.
    “You can't be a Firefighter or an American for that matter you have no heart! “
    Gee, that can’t be true, because I have been all ranks including chief, LOL. I’m sure I influence more people in the fire service each week on more subjects and they pay me to do it than you ever will crying on this board about me. Last I checked one of my old rookie firefighters died that day, we had dinner together just months before. They were painting Chris’s name on the side of the new Rescue 3 last week. A bunch of my old instructors and authors went down as well. So I have no relationship to the event eh or tie?

    ”What do you mean there is nothing to learn for the horrible tragedy?”
    Sure, in the highly unlikely event any other firefighter in the US ever faces that again, we should rebuild all the buildings. That was the point of the show and FEMA news releases. Te fact the City off NY has a lousy fire code compared to other model codes contributed too, but no one will ever know until it happens if the couple inches of spray on steel protection or the 2 feet of concrete used elsewhere would have held up, do they? But first we have to sprinkle all of them. Then and only then the “theory” is the stairways might hold up. Now do they offer any guarantee?
    “ There is a lot to learn and a lot of changes departments can make in the high-rise operations”
    Like what? A go or no go decision? That was an option before the event.
    “ and in future building construction.”
    Sure rebuild the whole country. How about the nuclear reactors? Ball fields, Malls, convention centers, everything should become a bunker?
    Ok now everything is a bunker. How did we bust bunkers that a terrorist could build? We filled an 8 inch gun barrel with explosives and dropped it from a plane. Clarence Kelly in his book, Kelly says a 1500 pound ingot of nickel will sink an aircraft carrier.
    "Once in a lifetime" I pray your right but no one knows what the future holds.
    Well time will tell and no matter how much you spend rebuilding it can always happen.

    ”If you are a firefighter I hope somewhere along the way you find some common sense and some compassion for not only your fellow firefighters but your citizens you serve as well! “
    You know the topic wasn’t who died it is keeping them from dying again and why the building fell. If you want to take issue with the facts I posted knock yourself out. 99 firefighters dye every year most needlessly get over it or do something about it. 1000’s dye daily from all kinds of causes. Sorry my matter of fact style upsets you but I’m not losing any sleep over it.

    You know once in a lifetime incidents of the past were easily solved, not this one. Coconut Grove, no more non-collapsible doors and exiting signs and lighting and exiting on basements. MGM, add sprinklers, Triangle, don’t lock exit doors, Circus tents, I doubt they’ve really solved that yet.
    All those were forseen. You know Brannigan pointed out the dangers of WTC in his book 30 years ago.
    So put up air defense batteries and allow the plane to land in the neighborhoods, no I don’t think so!

    “fdquint - common sense? get some!”

    Care to take on some specific points, can you???? You know common sense stuff, go ahead.

    So what lessons do you forsee other than go and no go. Well one pointed out was keep the firefighters out of the stairways. Who is implementing that? Any other good ideas?

  18. #18
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    Larry, if you were first on the scene at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, what would you have done?

    Serious question - I'd like to read your perspective.

    Stay Safe

  19. #19
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    "History repeats itself to those unwilling to learn. I argue that this could occur again and that, in spite of fdquints assertions, there is much to be learned, though perhaps not in a traditional sense. "

    Non-traditional sit in a circle and sing kumbya

    Well arm the cockpits but the show or this forun is supposed to be about. It was about why the building fell. Short of explosions and adding thousands of gallons of fuel if you follow the model codes the buildings stay up even when you don't actively fight them or sprinkle them, isn't that the facts of decades of highrise fires?

    True of false one month after 9/11 Houston allowed a floor on a 42 story highrise to burn for 1 hour and 47 minutes? Yep. No water applied at all. Did it fall? Nope.

    Back tothe airplane, as a gold elite flyer, Last week in front of 133 passengers a Contintal airlines pilot jimmyed the cockpit door with a butter knife to get in, seems to me the slide locks cannot be placed by a lone person in the cockpit, so if one of the two person flight crew takes a dump all that investment is not in effect.

    I guess that is why f-16's are in the air, of course the airlines have changed policy on going along with the hijackers but four guys storming the door rules out tazers doesn't it???

  20. #20
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    "if you were first on the scene at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, what would you have done?"

    Not setup command in the fire building

    What would you have done?

    You know I was reading a book, Last One Down, you know one of the guysmaking a killing on the deal, e gave a Numbers style account of the names and ranks, page after page worth, what is surprising is how mainly firefighters and Chiefs died, not in betweens, anyone care to explain? Seems to me on a glance of the list that for every say 2 or 3 firefighters should have been an LT, for ever 2 or 3 firefighters should have been an MPO, etc.

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