In light of another post, where I was quite outspoken about untrained departments undertaking rescue, I thought I'd get some more feedback on the issue....
What training or accreditation does your department/service have for anyone wishing to undertake rescue?
I have concerns with people purchasing recip saws, hydraulics, etc when they are not trained properly in other more important issues related to extrication.
There is more to extrication than just moving metal.
We have departments around our area that have these tools and my concerns come from first hand experience:-
* One department has on numerous occasions put a "stop" on rescue responding telling us that no one is trapped. Upon arrival, we have found them using hydraulics to open doors to release casualties;
* We have come across departments attempting to pop doors with spreaders by placing the spreading tips between the B pillar and window frame with the window/glass still in place;
* Another department was attemting extrication with the batteries still connected, yet easily accessible for disconnection;
* A lot of the departments attempt procedures with little respect for hazards such as airbags, electrics, etc. (Due to a lack of training and understanding.) All services should have as a minimum an "awareness" level of training to understand the hazards and also what rescue can do to help them;
* Departments using spreaders to pop doors have seperated the skin from the door and have continued to attempt to spread, only weakening the structure and purchase points and making it harder for the rescue department upon their arrival;
* Departments cut battery cables instead of disconnecting them forgetting that we may require the power connected to move seats or windows, etc. Once cut, we are unable to perform some of these basic release procedures.
If there are departments that are trained in rescue, why double up in resources?
Why should a department purchase hydraulics for example when their primary role is fire suppression?
Isn't it a waste of money and resources?
Is it justifying the existance of some departments or staffing levels?
An effective rescue relies on an understaning of each departments roles and responsibilites, along with good training and teamwork when it comes to the actual event. There are lives at risk when it comes to extrication- under no circumstance should a department attempt rescue without proper training. (Whilst these forums are a great learning resource, they do not substitute proper training under trained supervision.)
What does your department have in the way of training and accreditation for rescuers?
The picture belows shows a recent 4 car MVA with the driver trapped in the van on its side. Due to a great working relationship with the services in the area, the fire department made entry to the van via the passenger door for the Ambulance Officers. They then tied it back, made all vehicles safe by disconecting batteries and had charged lines ready to go and did a complete "hand-over" and "sit-rep" when rescue arrived keeping them informed of what had been done in preperation for the extrication. The teamwork and understanding of each others roles ensured a speedy extrication process for the casualty.
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Thread: Untrained Rescuers....
04-26-2002, 08:44 PM #1
Last edited by lutan1; 04-26-2002 at 08:51 PM.Luke
04-27-2002, 12:20 AM #2
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
- SYKESVILLE, MARYLAND
LUTAN, I AM A RESCUE INSTRUCTOR FOR THE MARYLAND FIRE & RESCUE INSTITUTE, WHICH IS AFFILIATED WITH THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. I'VE TAUGHT SINCE 1972. MY HOME DEPARTMENT ADOPTED MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR ALL THE DISIPLINES. TO RESPONE ON THE FIRE APPARATUS - FIREFIGHT I, FOR THE SQUAD - RESCUE TECHNICIAN, ON THE AMBO - EMT. THE CURRENT RESCUE TECH. PROGRAM IS 60 HOURS, FOLLOWED BY RESCUE SPECIALIST AN ADDITIONAL 45 HOURS. A NEW PROGRAM IS IN THE WORKS TO COMPLY WITH NFPA 1006 AND 1670. THE CLASS WILL COMBINE BOTH TECH. & SPEC. A CORE PROGRAM WILL BE EXTRICATION - BOTH AUTO AND MACHINERY. ADDITIONAL MODULES WILL INCLUDE: SWIFT WATER RESCUE, TRENCH, ROPE, STRUCTURAL COLLAPSE AND CONFINED SPACE. IF THE STUDENT OPTS TO DO THE WHOLE DEAL, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 300 HOURS TOTAL. YOURS IN EMERGENCY SERVICES, BILL
05-03-2002, 04:48 PM #3
Our department requires ALL Line Personnel to have the following: Awareness training in all rescue disciplines outlined in NFPA 1670, then obtain certification in DOT Vehicle Extrication, Rope Rescue Operations, and Water Rescue Operations. In addition, they must obtain HAZMAT Operations level and complete Incident Management and Personnel Accountability courses. All of our Special Operations "USAR/Heavy Rescue" personnel must have completed a prescribed list of training courses which fulfill the JPRs outlined in NFPA 1006 for the Core Competnecies and the Vehicle/Machinery, Structural Collapse, and Confined Space specialties, as well as take a written and practical examination. The dive team has to have the Core Competencies plus Water Rescue and the new Dive specialty (it's not out yet, but since I wrote a lot of it, I have the inside scoop).
A lot of the Special Ops crew are on the HAZMAT Team as well, and they're required to have EMACS certification as HAZMAT Technician and we have also added Weapons of Mass Destruction NBC HAZMAT Tech as of November 2001.
Also- to Lutan: Thanks for the great scenarios- my crews love them, and to Yoda: say "HI" to Schappy for me and ask him about the "Oreo Queens".Michael "Mick" Mayers
Acting Director, Urban Search and Rescue
South Carolina Emergency Response Task Force
05-06-2002, 08:43 AM #4
Technically all a department needs to do is declare responsibility for rescue here. They are not required to meet any standard, training or equipment - they just have to say they are taking responsibility.
Yes, if you're wondering I do find that frightening.
In my department you may respond to calls (not alone) once you've had haz mat awareness, some basic extrication training, and general ICS knowledge (medical calls require EMT-B).
In order to be cleared to respond on your own or to take a shift on our quick response/light rescue truck you have to go through an extensive check off process that includes extrication training that can get you to a point that you can arrive on scene alone, assess the scene, call for appropriate resources, stabilize the vehicle, and perform all the basic tasks such as pop a door, push a dash, pull a steering wheel and cut off a roof while waiting for the rest of us to arrive. This is not for the serious crunchers...but for the 85% that are 'textbook'. These people also have to have the basics on assessing technical operations and have basics in ropes, water, trench, collapse, search etc. We do carry a roof pack for starting high and low angle operations as well as other basic equipment for the other operations.
To be cleared on the heavy rescue and/or specialty rescue vehicles you go through much more training. We require the NC State ERT (Emergency Rescue Tech) certification within one year - which includes has mat operations. This will provide good basic knowledge in all areas of technical rescue. Advanced training (following NFPA 1670) in auto extrication, trench, confined space, high and low angle, swiftwater, farm extrication, search, and collapse is also required. Most of our members pick from one to three areas they really concentrate on at the technician level and have awareness and ops of other areas. We also put people through more advanced ICS training.
Our divers are required to be PADI/NAUI to start, but we are going with the DR1/2, river diver and other standards for their advanced training.
Many of our people have been through the WMD training already, we are sending the rest soon. I think that needs to be a standard these days.
We also require continuing ed hours on a twelve month rolling basis to stay active. I know this sounds like a lot - but when rescue is your whole focus, it's not so bad. It also ensures the public gets the service they deserve.Susan Lounsbury
Winston-Salem Rescue Squad
Griffith Volunteer FD
05-06-2002, 10:19 AM #5
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
- Canberra, Australia
Lutan, i guess we agree on this . you may have seen my posts on the original issue. In the ACT we are blessed in so far as we have no contradictory legislation so we are the responding agency for RAR, Vert. rescue, confined space, trench etc etc but we do have problems of our own.
At some stage a management figure head allowed a private citizen to place "Fire/ Rescue" decals on his car. This was for the purpose of responding to dragway incidents. However this person has decided they look good on the streets and now we operational firies have had no end of grief chasing him away from jobs. (I suspect he has a scanner).
Typically management has washed their hands of it aand denied involvement but they refuse to do anything.
Problem is, I have now attended several jobs (none serious, YET) that this clown has attended and the Australian Federal Police (AFP) who are responsible for the ACT were mistaken in their belief that this guy had any idea about MVAs or anything else for that matter.
In the Australian frame of reference it is vital that durisdiction is allocated and accredited rescuers are sent to respond to incidents.
I understand that in some locations this is a long way away because distance and money are problems. But where trained response is available I dont want to be hearing "second negative" from ambos who are not trained for extrication. Fine they are ALS gurus, but they know squat about extrication. Mav.
Sorry if i have offended but i sees what i sees and the pt suffer.
05-06-2002, 06:37 PM #6
Mav- You're spot on about it being scary with this guy running around doing rescue! What a flog!!!!! (You've certainly got a major issue to resolve...)
What scares me just as much though is a recognised emergency service getting tools of some description and having no or minimal training and then saying, "Well, we're doing rescue now!" Why? Because they can. And unfortunately there are a lot of spineless people in management positions that just let it go or put it in the too hard basket.
I also like some of the additional training that NCRSQ has to do to be on the heavy rescue- sounds great....Luke
05-06-2002, 06:57 PM #7
- Join Date
- Jul 2001
- Silver City, Oklahoma USA
We're in the same boat as Susan...all a department needs to do to run rescue is give dispatch a map of the district and say,"Any wrecks in this area, call us." While there is no mandatory standard for these people to meet, they aren't protected any more by law from suits of negligence just because they are ignorant.
I'm itching to get our department running rescue. Myself and a few others have worked/volunteered for services that ran rescue, but there aren't enough of us to guaruntee coverage. The rest of the guys have an eight hour basic hand-tool extrication class. My goal is to get all of my guys trained to the Medical First Responder level, run everyone through a extrication course with hydraulics, and then start responding. Even though we won't have hydraulic tools for some time, we can respond and start basic things (cribbing, D/C the battery, fluid cleanup, glass removal, etc) before the departments that run rescue now (20-35 minutes away) can get there.
Yes it's scary. There are departments near us that run "rescue" (notice the quotes)--but if it was me in the car, I rather have them load the car with me in it up on a wrecker and drop me off in a diffent district, rather than have my life in their hands.Bryan Beall
Silver City, Oklahoma USA
05-08-2002, 02:28 AM #8
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
- Canberra, Australia
Lutan, we dont have too many dramas with volunteers as far as rescue is concerned. but we do have some dramas with the ambos, who have attended stage 111 rescue courses run by our Brigade, and therefore believe that they are qualified to rescue. But it is pretty hard to do a good job without the tools and experience beyond one course.
We have had instances of pts being "skull dragged" out of vehicles before we arrive.
We also have problems with them trying to direct rescue and extrication rather than telling us the patients needs and letting us do the job.
My main problem with self responders of any description in the Australian context is that the police who have overall possession of the scene accept guidance from these people not knowing the risks they are taking or the dangers they are exposing the pt to.
You hit the nail on the head with the spineless management comment because it seems to occur everywhere. I cant understand why we as legislated responders have to tread lightly with these wanna bes. If they like the job that much apply and see if you are good enough. If not sit back and leave it to the professionals and give the pt a decent chance at a full recovery.
On another topic we are doing a Road Accident Awareness and Prevention program (RAAP) that we got from the Queensland Fire and Rescue and adapted to our own environment. Do you do anything like this in Vic. Mav.
05-22-2002, 08:51 AM #9
Rescue workers should have as a minimum the rescue specialist training, and crash victim extrication classes. Then the department have a set standard for training and drills set aside just for this specific type of operation. There are many hours of class room type discussion about the different configurations of air bags an impact devices on new vehicles.
05-27-2002, 05:30 AM #10
We don't have a requirement as to what crews need to have to enable them to do vehicle extrication, though it would be a good idea. The only real incompetence I have seen at a scene was a crew attempting a dash roll with a come-a-long, but they attatched the cable through the steering wheel instead of the steering column. Needless to say when we arrived things were about to get bad fast and we had to quickly fix the problem. After a strongly worded letter to their chief and training officer, they smartened up and let the people with training do the extrication.
05-27-2002, 11:51 AM #11
- Join Date
- Mar 2002
- Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
We have been running rescue in the dept since about 1996, when the "jaws" were first purchased (long before my arrival on scene) and have been doing very well with it.
But we have had many many instances where either EHS or "Johnny Q Public" had performed the extrication using the "Skull Dragged" as Mav has called it. And from some of the vehilces that these people have come out of, we have wondered if maybe that is exactly how they extracted them. As for any of the EHS personnel every attending or participaing in lectures or training in auto extrication, I have no idea.
We had one incident where a van was on its side and by time we got there the driver had been removed from the van. I found out later from a bystander that 4 guys had extracted the female driver by holding the van (by leaning on it) and two others actually hauling her out. The van was part way in the ditch, and partway on the highway. REAL SAFE STABILIZATION THERE!! Fortunately no serious injuries, but that is obviously not the point - that was just pure luck.If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)
"I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD
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