1. #51
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    Anyone read the latest regarding the Lairdsville incident? This comes straight from the article:

    ďItís definitely a jury case,Ē Moran said. ďAll Iím looking for is 12 people with common sense and theyíll do the rest. Heís a volunteer and you canít really hold him to a professional standard.

    NOW you see what upsets me about this and every other volunteer/career issue. We're all "professional" until someone has to take responsibility. THEN the standard is too hard to meet.

    We're either in or out of the pool here- if you consider yourself a professional (career OR volunteer), then you've got to say, "Hey, we have standards in the industry and we're going to use them." You can't pick and choose and still do the job.
    Michael "Mick" Mayers
    Acting Director, Urban Search and Rescue
    South Carolina Emergency Response Task Force
    www.sctf1.sc.gov

  2. #52
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    ďItís definitely a jury case,Ē Moran said. ďAll Iím looking for is 12 people with common sense and theyíll do the rest. Heís a volunteer and you canít really hold him to a professional standard.
    Oh My God.

    Gonz...you have been in contact with this guy. Is it worth setting the volunteer fire service back 30 years to get his client off.

  3. #53
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    I think the prohibition on live burns that is being referred to by sfdlt5 is a result of a memo from NYS OFPC (Office of Fire Prevention and Control). I just received the memo from our County Fire Coordinator (don't have it with me) and it basically states that OFPC is prohibiting any live burn, whether in an acquired structure or in a Training Tower Burn room, unless the people in charge have had the 2 OFPC Live Burn Safety training classes offered by NYS. Once these requirements have been met, NFPA 1403 is the rule of thumb at a live burn. This is a direct result of the Lairdsville incident and the other recent explosion that occurred during training.

    My own company routinely conducts live burns in the County burn room, as well as any structure we or our surrounding companies may have acquired. We've never had an injury to speak of and have always erred on the side of safety. We have now suspended live burns until our officers have met the safety training requirements....CYA.

    Word on the street also has it that NYS has hired over a dozen new investigators for PESH (NYS version of OSHA as NYS is not an OSHA state) that are specifically targeting Fire Dept's due to the recent deaths that have occurred in training and at actual emergency's.

    I have no doubt that there will be Dept's/Companies that will have to be dragged kicking and screaming (and paying fines) into the 21st century the hard way. And thanks to statements like Mr Moran's there will probably still be some who think that rules and standards apply to everyone but them.

  4. #54
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    Post Valuable training

    My experience with live burns done in accordance with NFPA 1403 is the same as others on this thread.

    I have also found that two types of live burn training are different than that offered at Concrete burn structures. PPV in the attack mode and Class A foam just don't react the same way as they do in an acquired structure.

    Mr. Moran if your still monitoring this forum, you're doing a disservice to the fire service in general. Although I know that this is not your job; your job is to plead the case of your client. Lord knows that that would probably require him to admit that he was not qualified to hold the position that he had or to admit that he made mistakes, both of which he is not likely to do.

    Here in PA good has come of the Lairdsville incident. Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, Bureau of Air Quality requires that all training fires receive an "Open Burning Exception" permit from them prior to any such fires. The State Fire Academy in conjuction with the State Fire Commissioner and DEP, has just required that all live burns submit this application to the local Educational Training agency as well as the DEP 45 days in advance of the training dates. This exception may be disapproved by the State Fire Academy Supervisor if he/she feels that the purposes of, and the drill objectives do not meet certian criteria, which basically is NFPA 1403. This new procedure requires that all acquired structural burns are conducted by certified state fire instructors and that the training must be a part of the State Fire Academy local level training program. It also requires the signature of the "Responsible Fire Chief". The form and information can be downloaded from www.osfc.state.pa.us See proactive change is possible when the right people recognize when and how it should be accomplished. Congrats to Commissioner Mann and those at the PA State Fire Academy for accomplishing this!

  5. #55
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    It sounds as if Mr. Moran is going to lead the fine folks in New York to believe that volunteer departments are not capable or qualified to conduct live burn training without someone being seriously injured or killed. Mr. Moran would lead us to believe that volunteer departments should be held to another standard when conducting live burns. Is there anything wrong with NOT conducting them if you cannot meet NFPA 1403? Is there anything wrong with asking your state for qualified instructors when undertaking such an exercise?
    I am starting to get upset; I will see you all over at the "Lairdsville Revisited" thread. Got some things to get off my chest.
    Bradley Golden deserves better.

  6. #56
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    Default Mr. Moran

    Actually, Mr. Moran is the lawyer. I pulled the quote from an article www.withthecommand.com got off of a news wire. Let me get the link for you all.
    Michael "Mick" Mayers
    Acting Director, Urban Search and Rescue
    South Carolina Emergency Response Task Force
    www.sctf1.sc.gov

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    Default The Link

    Here it is, fresh from the Utica Observer-Dispatch, the current events:

    http://www.uticaod.com/news/daily/local1.htm
    Michael "Mick" Mayers
    Acting Director, Urban Search and Rescue
    South Carolina Emergency Response Task Force
    www.sctf1.sc.gov

  8. #58
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    George...

    Bob Moran (or should it be MORON) has not contacted me...after seeing his opening argument in his defense of Alan Baird, if he did contact me, I would unleash a torrent of hatred upon his sorry butt.

    He has the unmitigated audacity to feign ignorance of the standards, then state that that because his client is a volunteer, that he should not have to meet the standards. In one statement, he has set the entire fire service back 30 years, not just the volunteer sector!

    In a way, I'm glad this is not on Court TV... it would have cost me some serious dinero! I would have thrown something through my set in the family room...then gone upstairs to watch on the set in the bedroom and throw something through that one, then into my son's room and probably thrown something through that one, too!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Sorry Gonzo, I think Imixed you up with mongo.

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