1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default Forcible Entry - Metal Doors

    This is my first post in quite awhile. If this topic has been covered, I apologize. Anyway, we have a lot of apartments in our response area with metal doors in metal frames with dead bolts that extend into the metal jamb a good 3/4 to 1 inch. How do you force these doors efficiently if a rabbit tool is unavailable. Beating the door into submission with a maul or axe takes a lot of time and doesn't seem very efficient. If any of you truckies out there have any tricks, I'd sure like to hear them. I'm usually functioning as a hose dragger, but occasionally have to do truck work, and I really don't like looking like an idiot using brute force if there's a quicker and better way to do something. Thanks for any suggestions and everyone take care out there.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,767

    Default

    I have found that even with a good door and lock, conventional forcible entry, with a good set of irons, will work most of the time with just one dead bolt.

    A good set of irons consists of the original Halligan, or the Iowa American version or the one piece Quic bar, and a good striking tool : 8lb flat head, 8lb maul, or 8+ lb sledge.

    The Zak entry tool, the Hooligan from Paratech, and the 3 piece Quic-bar just aren't as well designed for tough jobs. The fork end requires more force to get it in the door because of its thickness. The adz end doesn't have that nice curve to it that helps get it in between the door and jam, and the spike is a bit fat. Also I have seen a 3 piece break during a challenging entry attempt. The lighter axe, or the TNT tool doesn't have the weight behind it to drive the halligan. I've heard their is a big version (8.5lb) of the TNT/ Denver tool but I haven't seen it used yet.

    If conventional forcible entry isn't working well for you, for whatever reason, then the through the lock meathod would be my next choice. Using a K or A tool you shouldn't have a problem removing the locks from the heavy steel doors.

    Lastly the Rabbit tool or the Hydra-Force make short work of almost all inward swing doors, but you need to be proficiant with the irons.

    Perhaps a key box with the master for the building could also be obtained. That always works good for smoke scares and meat on the stove calls.

    The tools of the trade videos and the Fire Engineering Forcible entry videos are good places to get some background info, but don't forget to practice the skills before the fire.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    shammrock54's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    445

    Default

    I would go w/ ADSN/WFLD. A good set of irons in a set of practiced hands will open many doors. If not master keys(real keys, not the bolt cutters though they are handy for chain locks) and if you need to get in quick either air tools or a K-12 saw.
    Member IACOJ & IACOJ EMS Bureau
    New England FOOL
    "LEATHER FOREVER"
    As always these are strictly my own opinions and views

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    MOTOWN88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    DETROIT
    Posts
    415

    Default

    If you arent getting through with the irons I would suggest you become familiar with a 24 inch pipe wrench and a screw driver for through the lock entry. Either that or refine your iron work a bit.
    I.A.C.O.J IRISH TATTOOED-HOOLIGAN

    DETROIT FIRE FIGHTER AND PROUD!

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber
    gfdtrk4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The southern shore of beautiful Lake Michigan
    Posts
    250

    Default Entry

    I'm with ASDN/WFLD & Shammrock54

    IRONS, IRONS, IRONS
    and
    PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE

    Can't give you a better answer without looking at the door in question.
    Is it set in concrete block, or brick? If the Masons filled the jamb, this one is tough!!!!
    Is it set in a wood frame?
    If it is in a wood frame.....go through the wall beside the door. (I know it sounds obvious....But......you never know.)
    FTM-PTB
    trk4

  6. #6
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    12

    Default

    How would I open a metal door? A cordless drill 3/8 inch bit and a ľ inch piece of welding rod, would take almost 10 seconds and I could lock the place up when I was done ad no one would ever know we were in the place.

    Through the lock would be second choice then the irons.

    It doesnít make any sense to me to tear the place up and take more time when you donít need to.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    No. Providence R.I. : Land of the "How ya doins"
    Posts
    990

    Default

    ADSN/WFLD, shamrock, and gfdtrk4, pretty much summed it up.
    Irons- Be proficient in their use, and like the brother from Gary
    said, PRACTICE.
    RabbitTool- Will make easy work of this door. Nice tool!
    Master Key- The best solution of all. Thanx shamrock!
    Trying to go through the lock would also work.
    If it were a confirmed structure fire in THAT apartment,
    you could also use a K-12 and cut around the locks.
    tankerpumper- GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Thanks for the help, guys. I agree practice certainly makes perfect, and I'll practice with the irons whenever I can. I admittedly need practice on through the lock methods and I'll try to scare up a copy of the video you mentioned. This particular door was set in a metal frame in a masonry wall. The bolt was set in the door so far that we had to force the door in about three inches before the bolt was pulled free from the jamb. Most of these complexes have maintenance on hand to unlock the doors for you, but he didn't seem to be available for some reason. Another option that some of the locals suggested was to cut the lock out with a cordless dewalt saw. I suppose you could punch a hole through the metal panel with the haligan and then cut the metal with the saw. We carry a rabbit tool on one of our two engines, of course that was that engine was in the shop that day, and the Amkus tool that was on the engine we responded with seemed a bit much.

    As an interesting aside, when we got in the room, we found three aquariums with several large constictor snakes in them. Fortunatley, they were pretty lethargic so they were easily removed. Several guys weren't real happy about them being around.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  9. #9
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    6

    Default

    How easy can it be? If it is a dual door slide between the mulians, if it is a single door slide the wire through the hole you drilled with the cordless drill. Probably not as much fun as destroying things though. But it is a lot quicker and professional
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  10. #10
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Once you are through grab the hardware, push or pull style and give a tug, takes 5 to 15 seconds depending on the door.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  11. #11
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    6

    Default

    PuffyNPFD

    "GIVE ME A BREAK!!!"

    What is wrong with theoption described? What door specified in any model fire code does the system above NOT solve? ADA, panic what?

  12. #12
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    6

    Default

    "Well if you read his first post he stated " MANY APARTMENTS WITH METAL DOORS IN METAL FRAMES." such as individual apartment doors. Not the doors that you have attached the picture with."

    So seeing as how a photo was not posted when you made your comment are you saying that a ADA lever tool will not open an apartment door as specified in the model building codes used throughout the USA?

  13. #13
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Oh you know what I am talking about eh? You couldn't even describe the tool. Go ahead try. Do those door knobs of yours turn when locked in yor Utopia?

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    No. Providence R.I. : Land of the "How ya doins"
    Posts
    990

    Default

    Hey clown boy, it's a J tool. I'm not stupid. But forgive me, I'm not as smart as you. I guess you have to fight 20 story tumbleweed fires, draft from cactuses, and have fire trucks bigger than aircraft carriers to be in your league! In my "utopia" , which just is the real world, where da murph rears his ugly head quite often, we can't unlock and turn door knobs with a J tool, we just have to bull through them if we can't get a key.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    I certainly did not mean to stir up a hornet's nest here. I should have been more specific. The doors in question are for individual apartment units, not the entry door to the common stair/foyer area. They have a door knob with key lock and a seperate dead bolt, much like the entry door to a private home. They do not have panic hardware. The drill and rod would work very well with a door that has a panic bar, but I'm not sure how it would work with the scenario I posted unless you can use the rod in the drilled hole to operate the lock hardware.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  16. #16
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2

    Default

    You identified the tool in the picture. The question was tell us what an ADA lever tool is? Remember?

    Now to unlock knob locks that have thumb wheel locks that keep the knob from turning and thumb wheel style dead bolts, simply drill a hole at an angle, towards the lock set, insert the "Lock Loop" tool that looks like a J ( about 1 1/2" across at the widest part 1/4 inch stock with a round bend, on it not like a big squared J hook and flip the lever or thumb lock to open. 15 seconds and you're done.

    A piece of wire in the shape of a Z is used for panic hardware, not a J hook, a rod and wire is used for lever doors and a piece of band steel will open 90% of the liftup or roll up doors.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,685

    Default

    Hey, sowhatfd, quintladder, etc. has some good ideas here. Too bad he has a bad attitude in sharing them. Well, when he signs back on as someone else and reads this, Thanks Larry, these were good ideas.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber
    gfdtrk4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The southern shore of beautiful Lake Michigan
    Posts
    250

    Thumbs down Larry?

    Larry....I think I could tell it was you without even one keystroke.

    Speaking of "STROKES" & "TOOLS".....Larry

    CJ, you need a history lesson on the "L-TOOL"
    "Quint, Quint, Quint....You are stupid...I am smart....I once put out a 99 alarm brush fire with 7.9846185 gallons of CAF....You are supid..... pump and roll....never been killed....monitors from the outside.... Oh yeah....YOU ARE STUPID...I AM SMART"

    I think that just about sums it up.

    I have never seen "panic" hardware on an apt. door with a deadbolt.

    I'm sure that Larry has used the "panic" bar to EXIT lots of buildings....like after being fired....or finding a trah can on fire or other scary things.
    FTM-PTB
    trk4

  19. #19
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    6

    Default

    GFD,

    Hate to rate on you non constructive fun but it is very obvious the drawing and explantions clearly show and explain how to open lever sets, dead bolts, door knobs and ever panic hardware doors quickly.

    This tool is used to open 95% ofthe tilt up or rollup electirc door in America.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    truck6alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Hilton Head Island, SC
    Posts
    405

    Default

    Wow. There's some serious love in this thread. The J-hook actually does work on those doors (I've used the ol' drill hole through the door on a row of doors checking for extension in a strip mall incident). Personally, I prefer the halligan and axe, but we carry a k-tool in our forcible entry tool wrap and that works great too. Lots of great ideas, which are only great if you practice them, but there's no need for all of the anger. Relax- it's just a forum.
    Michael "Mick" Mayers
    Acting Director, Urban Search and Rescue
    South Carolina Emergency Response Task Force
    www.sctf1.sc.gov

  21. #21
    John_Ford
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Half a pound of c-4 and 20' piece of shock tube. 20' takes you out of the blast area or at least to the corner.


    Anything worth doing is worth over doing.

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Smile Thanks for the info and suggestions...

    Thanks to all who responded to my post. I learned a few things and got information on techniques I hadn't seen before. I read these forums a lot to supplement my company training and what I read in Fire Engineering and Firehouse magazines. There is a lot of good information to be had here. Thanks again for your input.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register