I was wondering what kind of times people were getting for performing certain procedures on vehicles. For example how long does it take for your squad to remove a door or to remove the roof of a four door vehicle? I am basing the time from truck arriving at scene and all proper safety procedures followed such as disconnecting batteries, avoiding airbags, removing interior trim for examination behind... etc...etc...
I was wondering so that I can get a feel for how our department is doing. I`m not trying to start a ****ing match about who is faster, I`m just curious.
Asst. Training Officer
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Thread: How Fast?
05-02-2002, 08:43 PM #1
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
05-02-2002, 08:56 PM #2
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Puyallup, Wa.
Hey Nutty, check the article archives for Ron Moore's Phases of Rescue drills. Ron has done what your looking for, breaking down scene activities into 4 phases - initial activities,door/side removal,roof removal, dash displacement - with recommended time standards you should shoot for. These times are based on having your tools already staged for drill purposes but you could easily factor set-up time in for your purposes. We run through these timed drills periodically and the crews like them.
05-02-2002, 10:39 PM #3
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Puyallup, Wa.
Here are the times
Well I went back through the archives and didn't see the actual times listed, but here they are from a handout from Moore's University of Extrication 2 day course.
Phase 1 - Goal of 1:30 or faster, acceptable is 1:30-2:30
Phase 2 - 3:00 or faster, acceptable range of 3:00-4:00
Phase 3 - 2:30 or faster, acceptable range of 2:30-3:00
Phase 4 - 2:30 or faster, acceptable range of 2:30-3:00
Here's the link to the original article laying out the drills
The target times are all very achievable and the drills are great for building teamwork.
05-03-2002, 02:42 AM #4
I have never timed people during the classes I have been involved with, preferring to concentrate on safety and efficency. The classes I have attended where we were timed usually tried ot accomplish the tasks you describe in around 10 minutes, which is the gauge I try to use in the field to determine if we are going to have a lengthly extrication or not. If we can get access for patient removal within 10 minutes, we are pretty much in a "routine" response mode. If ten minutes have passed and we are still not making considerable progress on freeing the patient, my feeling is that we need to look at this as a potential critical patient. This would likely end up in a rapid removal sequence and a call for a medical helicopter to the scene of the accident if possible.Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
"People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter
05-03-2002, 08:19 AM #5
Why Time It?
I really fail to see the reasoning behind timing extrication evolutions.
Whilst it is interesting to compare, we shouldn't measure and judge our work by them.
The ONLY exception to this is the "Platinum Ten" and the most MOST important, the "Golden Hour".
As rescuers we need to be aware that every car design is different, as is the condition of the car (ie: rust, crash impact, etc.), along with the fact that at times we need to think outside the circle when it comes to moving the metal. Don't become pre-occupied with times, as long as we have a good outcome as often as possible and are always prepared to admit when it's time to go onto Plan B....Luke
05-03-2002, 09:36 AM #6
There is a very valid reason for "timing" vehicle rescue evolutions. A rescue crew must analyze and evaluate themselves in the training environment first before any concept of effeciency out on the streets can be made.
Under a training and educational setting, our National model extrication drill, the 'Phases of Rescue' allows you and your department to compare your typical extrication scene skills and abilities, using your tools and equipment, under similar circumstances to departments all across our country who have also conducted the drill and timed themselves. This program took more than four years of real-world research and field testing to produce valid enough data to now be called extrication 'benchmarks'.
You now have the ability to see how your agency compares to a hypothetical department operating under the same circumstances.
If for example, I run the Phases drill, knowing that the total roof removal benchmark time is 2minutes:30seconds or less and my crew accomplishes that Phase in 8 minutes, then there is something wrong with something. Either our techniques are wrong, our Command isn't commanding, or we don't have the right tools. Through this drill, you have an unusual opportunity to address a specific rescue task or component of your operations under a training environment to see where improvements can be made.
If my crew performs that Phase of the drill in benchmark time or less, chances are extremely good that their work at a real-world incident will be equally as efficient and effective. At a real-world incident, the patient's stop watch has been started and their outcome will tell you whether you performed at an acceptable level.
In our country, we even have National fire suppression standards (NFPA's Initial Fire Attack Standard #1410) that provides similar benchmarks for initial fire attack operations. Great training tool!
I disagree with you. It is extremely interesting and very educational to compare and we should measure and judge our work by these benchmark times in a training environment. Try it...You'll like it!Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
05-03-2002, 11:33 AM #7
One that sticks into my mind was when we where training for Auto. Ex. two years ago. We already had a partial staging area set up when the stop watch went down.
- Inner and Outer circles,
- interior in,
- PT stabilization,
- front and rear doors on the driver side,
- roof off
just a hair over 10 minutes.
I thought this was an excellent time considering we where running a 5 man team, including the IC and interior rescuer. Not to mention that the other two "toolies," next to myself, where probies and we only used one hydraulic tool, one sawsall, and a handful of hand tools (no small explosives this time around).
We have done other timed drills against each other, but I don't remember the evolution or timetables off hand. I will see if our training records have them."No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
05-03-2002, 06:18 PM #8
Ron- Whilst I take on board what you say, the concern is that a crew can become pre-occupied with times and then become critical of themselves on an actual call when it may take longer.
You know as well as I do that a roof flap may take longer on a car that is damaged as the roof may have creases in it that hinder the folding over. Same goes for popping doors. Pop a door on a straight car vs. a car that has bounced off a pole/tree on the drivers door.
That's where my concern lays. In an actual call, things take longer. I would hate for a crew to be "down" on themselves and each other because it 2 minutes longer to pop a door or similar....
* Straight cars vs smashed cars.
* Screaming casualties vs no casualties.
* Treating Ambulance Officers vs no one in the way treating.
* A rescue truck near the scene vs a truck that can't get close due to congestion.
* A crew that is focused on the training vs a crew packed with emotion on scene.
All of these factors, and more can add time to the extrication process.
I still beleive that the Golden Hour is the most important time- let's not lose sight of that!Luke
05-03-2002, 07:02 PM #9
- Join Date
- Jun 2001
- new franken, WI USA
We have never looked at extrication in phases but it is interesting. A "typical" (if there is such a thing) extrication for us would be using spreader and doing 3 or 4 moves.
1- a vertical move with spreaders next to the B-pillar breaks the door latch.
2- close spreaders and put point in door hinge and spread. this breaks the door completely free
3- put one "jaw" against the front of the floor bracket and the other "jaw" under the dash diagonally and spread. this lifts and pushes dash and seat back.
4- if needed position spreaders horizontally and push seat back more
we have yet to need to remove the roof of a car. The "typical" extrication takes about 10 minutes from 10-23 until the squad is 10-76 to hospital. Our best time is 7 minutes
It seems overly simplified but it works!Mark Carlson
firefighter's find 'em hot and leave 'em wet!
05-03-2002, 07:51 PM #10
I understand your point Lutan dealing with involved vehicles VS those that are sitting nicely on all fours without so much as a dent. Also, about crews being hard on themselves after a call because they did not measure up to their "practice timetable."
Further to our timings, we used it as a guide to help identify what we were strong at and what we needed to work on. This helped when it came the Auto. Ex. Competition. Knowing our times allowed Scott, the chief and IC, to plan out the extrication while we were completing the inner and outer. This way he could plan the safest and quickest time, which in a competition is pretty important.
As for on the street, everyone knows that you will never attend a "normal" call, therefore we don't even pretend to apply normal timetables to them.
We use ours timings for training. Lets say it takes me and Rick (malahat two-7) 1 minute to-90 seconds to take a drivers door on a heavily smashed vehicle (our training officer has a backhoe, makes for interesting practices) were as another two guys it takes 2-4 minutes to do the same. Therefore it could be concluded that the second crew is going to need more time on the tools taking off doors. Correct? Or maybe the second crew didn't take advantage of hard and soft points in the vehicle's construction. Etc etc, either way, it adds up to the fact that crew two might need a refresher. Chances are they are already going to know what they did wrong.
I agree that the Golden hour IS the timetable to shoot for. But I read somewhere that when stacked up against the Golden Hour the north american average is 73 minutes (not sure where I read it, or even if it is true anymore). It does not take a genius to understand that is 13 minutes to slow. On a call, leave the stop watches at home. During a drill I find it interesting to clock them. We always get a good conversation going about how to save a few seconds/minutes here or there, and in this game, EVERY second counts, literally!"No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
05-03-2002, 08:17 PM #11
- Join Date
- Mar 1999
- Ross / West View EMS
We can't confuse haste with speed and proficiency. Speed comes with practice. Timed drills are great but only after the crews drilling are proficient with the basics.
05-03-2002, 09:16 PM #12
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Puyallup, Wa.
Lutan, the timed drills are just another tool for training, not intended to be a critique of actual scene work. The times are based on working on non crash damaged vehicles, not mangled wrecks.
For me the phases drills are part of a crawl,walk,run approach to training. The crawl - a slow, methodical demonstration of various ways to accomplish the different jobs we may need to do at the scene, followed by the guys doing hands on work. The walk - (these drills) crews know what needs to be done, and after a short preplan, they work through the plan as quickly,safely, and efficiently as they can, ie. 'remove the entire driver's side of the vehicle using whatever method you decide on'. After completion, we note the time it took and talk about any things that went well or not so well and ways to improve. The run - we set up a scenario for them and have them work through it as they would on an actual call, agin critiqueing what happened on completion.
What benefits are there to timing? For one it's a stressor, knowing you're on the clock, trying to be efficient and accomplish a goal.The military has proven added stress is a good way to hasten learning and improve skill retention. It's also a confidence builder for the crews, knowing they can quickly approach a scene systematically and accomplish all the things that need to be done like sizeup, scene safety, stabilization - an unchallenged crew arriving at a critical call, may think "let's forget the cribbing, scene sizeup, and just pop the door and yard them out cause there's no time for that drill stuff."
And the main benefit I see for the timed drills is that is forces the team leader to take charge and coordinate the effort, rather than just standing there like a spectator with 1 guy working plan A and 1 doing plan B. He's forced to keep guys working together, and make adjustments if the car ain't cooperating.
But again, read Ron's series and try them for yourself before you discount their value.
05-05-2002, 03:22 PM #13
I've attempted to read the entire series on line but unfortunately only Part 1 opens up. The remaining Parts to this article series are out of date and dead links.....
So then, reading Phase 1, I beleive this is the size up and hazard assessment, etc. (Not sure how long this should take.)
Let's take a real case scenario that could happen anywhere at anytime:
A Mercedes Benz W140 Sedan slides into a power pole on the drivers side trapping the driver. The car is still partially wrapped around the pole;
During our 360 degree walk around we discover the fuel tank has ruptured and around 45 litres of fuel has leaked. The side airbags have deployed but the front driver and passenger bags remain active. The driver is unconscious. (Around 2 minutes)
We grab a fire extinguisher and place someone with it at the rear of the car. (We can't do anymore- we're not a fire department- we're a rescue dept. only.) (Another 1 minute- up to 3 minutes now.)
We break the passenger side window to gain access. (30 seconds to get tools and actually do the breaking- another 30 seconds. We're upto 3.30 minutes now.)
To do a vehicle electrical shutdown on this model, we need to switch the ignition off, remove key, remove the -ive battery lead and disconnect the Red 16 pin plug below the passenger footplate. Unfortunately for our rescue team, we're having trouble accessing the ignition AND the hood release due to the car being out of shape and the driver being trapped and in the way! We attempt to access the footplate on the passenger side but due to the bent floor pan, we can't just open it up as we should. We grab some hand tools and force the plate open. Pull the pin. As we can't get to the hood release, we get a crow bar and force the hood. (Add another 2 minutes. We're up to 5.30 minutes now.)
STOP! STOP! We reliase that we didn't stabilise the vehicle before attempting to force the hood with the crow bar. We stabilise the vehicle as well as we can. (Add another 2 minutes. We're upto 7.30 minutes.)
We force the hood to get to the battery, only to discover the battery is not under the hood! DOH! It's in the boot in this particular model Mercedes Benz! (Add another 2 minutes. We're now upto 9.30 minutes.)
Whilst this is happening, we gat a rescuer inside the car. He calls for a drivers airbag cover such as the Holmatro Secunet. It takes another rescuer approx 1.30 minutes to locate it in the truck and then he hands it over to the inside rescuer. It takes him another 1.30 to fit it due to the cramped working space with the casualty in the way. (We've just added 3.00 more minutes. (We're upto 12 minutes.)
It's also at this stage that he relaise the hood release is on the passenger side, not the drivers side! DOH!
Now I don't know how these time compare with the article that Ron wrote, because I can't read it as stated at the start.
Are my times unrealistic?
HELL NO! If anything, they're pretty conservative.
Are we a poor performing rescue team because of the time it took to do this?
HELL NO AGAIN! We're just like many other resuce teams throughout the world facing a REALISTIC accident scene, with REALISTIC challenges, making REALISTIC mistakes...
This is my concern with teams timing their evolutions. Realistic vs A Perfect World.
Every single accident is different.
Every single accident has different challenges.
Crews need to be prepared for these challenges and difficulties- not worrying about the fact that it took 3 minutes to stabilise a car, not 1 minute....
Unfortunately for us as rescuers- we don't get called to many accidents where a car is on its wheels with no damage to it.
Last edited by lutan1; 05-05-2002 at 03:27 PM.Luke
05-05-2002, 04:15 PM #14
More very good points Lutan, but I think you’re looking to deep.
Most of us only use our stopwatches during drills and practices. You and I both know there is not enough time to play around with your watch at a real call, so we never do.
Our timings are purely for training purposes. If it takes 10 minutes to do something that routinely, on average, only takes 3 minutes, then we have a 7 minute difference. From there we de-brief and talk about why it took us so long to do what we needed to do. Maybe the pin or hinges didn't break and the tool had to be repositioned a number of different times. Could this be because the FF on the tool is new and doesn't know the soft and hard points properly? maybe, so we work with him/her further. Or maybe the vehicle is damaged (we smash them up with a backhoe for our drills), and the practical way of attacking it didn't work out. We would go over the evolution slow time and discuss different ideas to get to the outcome faster, IE, pinch the door making the access points larger rather then having to reposition the tool 2-3 times to gain access to the hinges or pin.
Most of the time we don’t even know we are being timed, and if we are, we are rarely told what they are. The officer just says that doing such and such took to much time, and then we discuss what we could have done differently. Different attack, more training for whoever is on the tool, doing something differently all together.
We both know that when you are “down in the trenches” working the tools you can loose track of time. We have done scenarios where I swear we have only been working 10-15 minutes and the IC tells us we where working for 35 minutes. It is good to know it took that long because now we can figure out why and how to improve it so next time, on the street, everything clicks and the job gets done, fast and safe. That is what drilling is all about."No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
05-06-2002, 12:07 PM #15
- Join Date
- Jul 2001
- Silver City, Oklahoma USA
Ed D made a good point—don’t confuse haste with speed and proficiency.
I see the value in timing training evolutions to see how different members perform the same task in relation to each other. This would have to be done, I would think, on relatively undamaged vehicles to maintain consistency. I don’t know that it would be so important for the students to know the times as much as it would be for the instructors. If the students are advised of the times, they need to know that the times aren’t necessarily something that is to be expected every time in the real world.
I don’t think anyone is advocating applying these average times to actual “real-world” extrications. I would strongly disagree with doing that. There are just too many variables present in even a “routine” entrapment to say it should take X amount of time to perform X function.
The Golden Hour is very important, but it includes so many factors as well. Discovery, notification, extrication, transport, evaluation in ER and admit to surgery. Basically what I’m driving at is that out on the scene, you do what you have to do as quickly and professionally as possible. On the training ground is where we can try and break everything down in an attempt to better understand what it is we are trying to accomplish.Bryan Beall
Silver City, Oklahoma USA
05-06-2002, 10:10 PM #16
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
Thanks for all the info, It sure gives me a lot to digest and thiunk about. Hopefully I can wind up applying this information to make our sqaud a little better. After all, that's the goal isn't it?
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