1. #1
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    Default Critical Information for ALL Extrication Personnel

    My friend Joerg Heck from Germany researched and discovered something that I feel is extremely important. Something that all extrication personnel must become aware of.

    Through his efforts, I received cut-away images of a 2002 Mercedes E-class sedan showing the window curtain airbag system. What is different about this system (2002 and 2003 models) is that the stored gas inflator module for the roof-mounted airbag is mounted directly onto the A-pillar, exactly at our most common 'cut point'. Take a look!

    Make sure everyone on your team knows about this. It justifies the new protocol that roof pillar trim be stripped away prior to any pillar cutting.
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    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

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    I took the red circle image at the bottom of the first cut-away view and enlarged it to show details of the stored gas inflator module.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

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    that is a great picture! I beleive the 2002 BMW has something along the "A" post also.

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    Just wanted to bump this up to the first page

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    Ron, as always, thanks for the information.

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    When will the automobile industry get their act together and standardize these additional components the same way we all know to look for a gas tank in the rear??? Will it take some of us getting killed to do it?
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    Thanks for the update, Ron. Its good to know that somebody is looking out for us. I will be passing this on to the rest of our bunch during practice tonight.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

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    Assumin gthey do it world wide, contact the Mercedes Benz head office in your state/country. Ours has a training department and they have an actual package put together that they presented for Emeregency Responders.

    The course I did around a year ago covered such things as SRS locations, SRS isolation, front and rear seat removal, ROPS, etc.

    Great course!


    After this, I contacted all the other manufacturers I could find and NONE of them offered any training or even seemed remotely interested.


    Mercedes are very pro active in the area of rescue and emergency response on their vehicles- don't crticize them before you've approached them about training.....
    Luke

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    Default Answer from DC

    Hello!

    Today i recieved an answer from DaimlerChrysler regarding the new airbag gas-generator mounting position in the a-post.

    The gas-generator they use is the same generator as in the Mercedes Benz S-Class (there mounted in the c-post). DC had conducted test with the S-Class generator and there were no problems with the generator, which means no flying parts etc. The gas was released early in the cutting process.

    The representative also states that it could be dangerous to cut trough such an hybrid gas-generatorm, also they had no problems when the made their tests.
    Jorg Heck
    Airbag&Co, Germany/Austria
    http://airbag.feuerwehr.org

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    Hey Joerg, thanks for that last bit, takes a little of the stress off to know that the system will (should) not cause any extrication problems, thats good news. And I think I can say this for everyone, thanks for keeping us up to date on this stuff.

    Lutan, I also have spent several hours on the 'net, sending queries to different auto makers, and like you have had a very very limited response back. Honda and Toyota were pretty helpful to my quesitons, but Ford, GM and Chrysler have not even ackknowledged my requests for information. I have tried a couple of times for each one, but different attempts have resulted in a nil response from any of them. DAMN SECRET SQUIRRELS!!!

    Just for fun, I have thought about drawing the photos of some of the company designers to post in FH and then we can all watch out for them (sort of a Worlds Most Wanted List for Auto Extrication) in case any of us had the opportunity to "cut" any them out of a vehicle of their company's design, and then ask for pointers on where and what to cut as we do our job, but then thought maybe that wasn't such a good idea after all. (Sometimes have moral values sucks!!)
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    Jeorg, thanks for the information, I respect Daimler Chrysler as being a true leader in the field of automotive safety, but being of the generation that grew up in the 60's here in the USA, I tend to be a bit skeptical. Not saying that they are lying, but sometimes a strategic withholding of information can be as bad or worse than a lie. Now here comes an Assumption on my part. Considering the volume of most side curtain air-bags and the associated speed of deployment usually indicates some type of Presurized vessel. I have chatted with persons that have seen test on these type of pressurized vessel and he says the respond as we would imagine any pressure vessel would. So my point is simply this, Exactly how was their test performed? Was it a Labratory Experiment set up with no variables or was it real world? Again I respect Daimler Chrysler, Not only their work but there philosphy is recognized world wide. But I have to be a Skeptic, would love to have more details
    Last edited by Carl Avery; 05-16-2002 at 11:55 AM.
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

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    Default Questions

    More on these tests. Why did they test? If the tests were conducted for the benifit of rescue personal I would think they would release the data to said group. Did the repesentative have the report in their hands or was it word of mouth. If were are the ones dealing with picking up the pieces show us the info. I would say unless we see something more substansive to treat these units with extreme caution. I feel its not if but when someone will be injured.
    Good luck!

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    Exclamation

    Check out the "AutoLiv" website for some great info and pix on SRS systems and other stuf...

    AutoLiv
    Luke

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    Hey Lutan, watch out or the dummy gets it, eh. That's a great site, and I have since passed it on within my dept.

    As I read through some of the info in the Autoliv site, I noted that there are two types of inflators, one that is a gas module, presummable CO2 or some other basically inert gas. But there is alo a "solid fuel" inflator. I looked through much of the site, but found nothing else that referred to this unit. I ran out of time for further searching, but did not send a msg to the R&D guys to ask what they meant by that. Lutan, you found the site, any ideas on what they mean, and what type of solid propellant they use?

    Regarding the tests that were done, I have to agree with jducharme, until further notice to the better departmentally, full caution will be exercised when dealing with any new (2001 and newer) type car. Don't need someone to make a post on my behalf explaining that I am either temporarily out of commission or to make a LODD post because the "safe" actuator blew up in my face or something like that.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    Question Solid Fuel Inflators

    Malahat, I'm not sure what they mean by the solid fuel, but my guess is, it's the good old sodium azide. That is a chemical in a tablet form that is often used in the front airbags.

    It is stored inside the gas generator. When an ignition pulse is transmitted from the control unit to the squib located in the gas generator, the solid propellant in the gas generator is ignited. The propellant then burns within a very short time and develops a quantity of gas at a particular pressure. The gas is then pushed into the airbag to inflate it....
    Luke

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    Hello!

    The solid fuel that is mentioned on the autoliv website is the the fuel that replaces sodium azid as lutan said before. Sodium azid is a hazardous material (especially for water). In new cars (here in germany) they do not use it any more. I think the airbag-manufactures also do not use the solid fuel gas generators very often today, because "de-powering" the airbags is a hot topic in research today. The tend to use hybrid-generators.

    As I have stated in the other thread on this forum, I also would not cut into a filled hybrid gas-generator. That's because I heard of several good tests and several bad tests! May be that there are no problems with the generators DC used while they conducted the test. It could be that they use a generator from another manufacture today. Who knows?
    Jorg Heck
    Airbag&Co, Germany/Austria
    http://airbag.feuerwehr.org

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