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  1. #1
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    Post Training incident

    I am not here to start an argument I would just like to state my opinion. No one seems to under stand how Mr.Baird was not aware of the NFPA standards in reguads to live fire training. I would like to point out that NYS does not use NFPA. standards. There is another office in NY that makes the standards by which Firefighters train. I believe that office is called Office Of Fire Control And Prevention. I do not know what is stated about live fire training by O.F.C.P. But I would imagine they discourge the use of "live victims". But like I stated before this is only my opinion. As for the charges I'm not sure. Yes the alleged O.I.C lit the fire. He admited to that. But what about the person how picked the "victims" for this drill. He should have knowen Mr.Golden did not have proper training. Therefor it should have never even crossed his mind to use him. I will also state that there is a shortage of volunteer friefighters in this area. I have little doubt this case will make volunteers even more scarce.


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
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    Hopefully, the powers that be in your area use this sad incident to get some control of the professional standards for your useeither by adopting NFPA or by establishing and disseminating their own standards. Then you can use this foundation to establish a sense of pride and esprit de corps in your organizations that will allow you to attract and retain good, dedicated volunteers for your departments. If this does not happen, the death of Bradley Golden will be not only senseless but meaningless as well. For this to happen would be truly sad and tragic.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  3. #3
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    Please correct me if im wrong. During a legality class, we were instructed that by adopting any NFPA standard, you arbitrarily adopt them all. For instance, by using nfpa codes to order your gear, or light your new engine, you are adopting the various codes. Hence you cannot pick and choose what you want to accept.

  4. #4
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Default

    Not positive, but wasn't Mr. Laird an Assistant Chief and a member with at least 9 years experience? Are you actually going to try and convince someone that in 9 years, they have never heard of NFPA? They must never have been involved with Fire Prevention, Training, Educational classes, Fire related magazines, purchasing fire equipment, etc. Doesn't matter whether NY has adopted NFPA or not, to think that they have no idea what NFPA is and/or never heard of it is beyond comprehension. They knew about it, it appears they just did not choose to follow it, therein lies the problem.

  5. #5
    Senior Member PyroSlayer's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Even if NFPA didn't even exist, you would think that someone with supposedly nine years of experience would know better than to put anyone, especially some totally clueless rook, in a building and light a fire underneath them. I doesn't take nine years in the fire service or having the NFPA standards memorized to see the inherent danger in lighting a fire underneath a person or persons.

  6. #6
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    Unhappy

    Yes Mr.Baird did have 9+ years with his dept. Has he heard of NFPA? I don't know. Lighting the sofa on fire was stupid beyond all belief. I do believe Mr.Baird shouldn't be tne only one to shoulder the blame. Don't forget the chief was the one who picked the victims. He testified that he did. He should never have even considered Mr.Golden as a victim, knowing that man had no training. The chief needs to explain why Bradley was sent to be a victim in the frist place. In my opinion if you want to show a new FF what it like in a burning building get a smoke machine.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Heck, just close your eyes......that's what you can see in a fire.

  8. #8
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    Default

    Well here we go again, as usual I type a long post and it gets lost after I log in and it says I'm not. And it wouldn't let me return to try to cut and paste it. ***Also long post warning****

    First Dave, I compliment you on taking a stand and stating your opinion. I'm glad most of the idiot hotheads are gone.

    Secondly, I want to start my opinion with saying you are partly right that "NYS doesn't follow NFPA." NY Fire Departments are held accountable under law by OSHA. If an incident occurs it is investigated by PESH (a division of OSHA in NY) and they can levy fines bases on any wrongdoing by the dept/municipality, etc. It is in Civil Court where depts/munic./individuals can also be held accountable for wrongdoings based on OSHA and NFPA. However, all equipment sold by manufactures for the fire service, are supposed to have a tag/stamp that states they meet the requirements set forth by the standard which they fall under. So NY in a way does work with NFPA. The Office of Fire Prevention and Control (OFPC) sets forth training standards and certification courses for the state. They also normally do investigations to find out causes of incidents to evaluate training and to see if something needs to be added or if a course should be made. They recently resent their live fire training policy to all SFI's, which repeated that OFPC policy is that all SFI's and training that takes place on state grounds, follows NFPA 1403 when live fire is taking place. However, it is important to realize that NY is a home rule state, and OFPC only has authority to establish and give training courses and assistance to fire personnel, they do not mandate policy to local departments. Which is for obvious reasons, areas are different, vollie/career, and of course depts. need to write their own policies. However, they do set forth training in accordance with OSHA standards, and about 10 years ago, mixed in NFPA (IFSTA) FFI and II training curriculums. (even if I think that they gave in too much to the vollie chiefs involved in the process) Additionally, it is sad that this had to happen, however, maybe this is what it will take to make the point that this will not be accepted besides just in local depts. Regardless of who thinks they should have known exactly what NFPA 1403 said, common sense should have prevailed, just like pyro stated. Even the military uses live ammo for training occassionally, but we never shot at each other. No one should be dying in training. I don't care how important people think it is, even when you teach someone to swim, you lead them to the water you don't throw them in.

    Finally, I'm sure that those involved have heard of NFPA. My kids have heard of NFPA, but that doesn't mean thay my kids or those that were involved in the tragic incident knew what standard governed live fire training, nor the fact that in a non-civil law scenario, really didn't have to follow it. But I bet they know it now, and realize that its the "accepted practice" and is used to strengthen the case against them, and they haven't even been hit with a civil lawsuit yet. You can't really follow what you don't know. Saying oh yeah I know NFPA is one thing, however, there aren't that many that can honestly tell me they knew NFPA 1403 was for live fire and tell me verbatim what was in it. I can tell you I've read 1500 3 times and can't tell you verbatim. I can tell you in my dept as well as many around me that there are no large volumes of NFPA standards. We have several complete and up to date sets of OSHA manuals/updates/statements, etc. (which are gov. issued by the way) Other then the NFPA standards I've photocopied for myself or others who have writtin policies, or used them to bolster arguments for various things, there are none. I've also gotten tired of the "well we really don't have to follow NFPA, we're bound to OSHA." Its not necessarily the smartest, but they are right when they say that. We use it to aid with policies and make them a little stronger when OSHA seems vague, but to a city manager, they don't want to hear it. We had to fight nearly 5 years to get everyone bunker pants because OSHA still allows 3/4 boots. So you see the battles. I personnaly like and utilize NFPA often, but I'm also not the one who writes checks and does the annual budget.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

  9. #9
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    Default Thanks to ALS

    ALS I would like to thank you for the insight. It was very useful. I am new to Vol. service. But I do know NY doesn't follow NFPA, I learned that at a job I use to hold. Every thing was osha this and ofcp that. Also thanks for not jumping on me for stateing why I felt he could say he didnt know NFPA. I still would like to know why the chief sent a new man with zero training to be a victim. But that will probably never will get answered.

  10. #10
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    Post

    ALS, your reply was most enlightening as concerns the
    state of NY, and maybe a few others as well. Even tho'
    you are an OSHA state, who writes or otherwise decides
    what will be the Fire Code for your state? Does the
    state Fire Marshal have any input? And what about each
    local municipality/town? Do any of them adopt the National
    Fire Codes, or do they all hope that what OSHA says is
    sufficient for Life Safety and fire prevention? It appears,
    that OHSA was not adequate this time. OHSA, in case
    any have forgotten, exists to promote safety in the
    workplace, not to promote fire codes and Life Safety in
    general.

    And I will also raise the question as to why a ROOKIE was
    sent in to a building where there would be a "controlled"
    burn to play the part of a victim. When I was in training,
    a new recruit did NOT go into a building even with SCBA
    until they had passed Section I and the Training Officer
    was also satisfied that they could do the job as part of an
    attack team. The department chief obviously was not using
    his head when he volunteered a new recruit.

    As for Mr. Baird, there's nothing like going out on a
    limb, and then cutting it off behind you.

    I do understand that most volunteer departments have
    officers that are elected by popular vote, and unless
    there are requirements in place stating the minimum
    qualifications that one must meet in order to be elected
    to an officer position, then the possibility for tragedy
    will exist. 'Nuff said.

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