1. #1
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    Question Inverted Mini-van Pt Extrication

    During our last practice, we had a visitor who is an former member of CARS and longtime firefighter/officer type. I presented an update on the changes to the "hide the airbag inflator" and some of the other tid bits that I have accumulated from the Extrication Forum (thanks go to Ron and Joerg for the info).

    During the course of the discussion, Scott presented a story from when he was with CARS and they were trying different scenarios with 2000 model cars from different manufacturers. The story referred to a new Dodge mini van that has more windows than metal around the passenger cabin.

    The scenario runs that the van is upside down, with trapped occupants. Scott says that during the course of the extrication process, nearly all the glass was broken out. The consequence of this action is that the roof collapsed completely. Had this been a live event, all occupants would have been killed by the weight of the van coming down on them.

    Here is my question: With that type of vehicle construction, what are some good, effective methods of gaining entry for extrication, without compromising the integrity of the vehicle structure itself, and thereby endangering both the occupants and rescuers?

    From viewing the extrication posts, and particularly the one regarding cribbing and stablization, I am wondering what stablizing method might work best.
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    depending on the model and placement, i believe the back door or the sliding door should work. if not you could try taking out one window at a time and placing cribbing or a jack in the window to keep the van from collapsing. this would be my idea.
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    I had similar thoughts regarding the rear door, didn't think of using the sliding door that way though, good point there.

    The consideration for knocking out the windows in slow time and cribbing/jacking as you go came to mind. We carry 6 milk crates of cribbing and 8 step chalks, but we currently do not have any thing to jack a vehicle or support it from great height. We have done some very creative box cribbing when needed, but one vehicle on its lid can eat up our entire cribbing capability in one go.

    We have looked quite extensivly at the Res-q-jack system and like it a lot. I have been in contact with Ron Moore on several occasions and he has offered a great deal of advise and information. Basically we are just waiting for funding now.

    Any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

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    With vehicle construction these days, especially with Uni-bodies, everything is a factor in structural integrity, and yes, even glass. Just like when you take the roof off of a vehicle without using proper cribbing the “frame” will sag. Removal of glass can reduce the integrity of a vehicle, and taking that glass could and may very well be more dangerous to the PT.

    However, as you asked, you still need to get in. Cribbing the vehicle to hard points other than the roof (which is now inverted), so that the posts don’t buckle when the glass is gone. Make use of existing holes in the vehicle. Side doors, rear doors, sliding doors. Anything and everything is fair game.
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    Default What sort of glass?

    What sort of glass is used in this construction? I would assume (and hope!) that its laminated or lexan. If it's part of the structural integrity- why remove it if it doesn't have to be?

    Use the available openings such as the sliding and rear doors as already suggested.
    Last edited by lutan1; 05-18-2002 at 07:23 PM.
    Luke

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    The suggestions so far have been great, and again Lutan, your point regarding the type of glass is a very valid one. Also using the existing entry points like side doors is as well. So I am going to add to the scenario a little bit.

    Lets just suppose that for some reason the side access door is inaccessable due to the vehicle being braced against a tree or concrete post. Granted some of the newer model minis have dual side door access, but for arguement sake lets make this one an older model with only the one access door.

    In an earlier post, someone suggested doing a roof flap, I am assuming while the vehicle is still on it lid? I am not entirely sure, but I don't think my dept has ever done this(FF26 will correct me if I am wrong), but I am sure that for myself, I have never seen it. What is involved and how is it done - safely?
    Last edited by MalahatTwo7; 05-18-2002 at 07:34 PM.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

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    Default Inverted Van- Roof Flap

    If we're on the same path, to do the inveretd roof flap whilst a vehicle is on its roof, you need to:

    * Have lots of stabilisation stuff (Remember to "Pack as you jack"!)
    * Insert the ram (Preferabbly two- one on each side for stability)in an opening (Such as rear doors)
    * Extend the rams to take up the slack
    * Cut all roof pillars on the side or end of vehicle to be flapped
    * Extend the rams. This will lift the floor and all the contents of the vehicle up, whilst the roof remains on the ground
    * Wouldn't be too keen to do this with someone still in a seatbelt and seat, though!

    Watch for the stability of the rams and pack the opening as you lift it....

    This might be a good chance to use those High Lift Jacks that myself and a lot of others think are collecting dust in the back of the trucks!
    Last edited by lutan1; 05-18-2002 at 07:40 PM.
    Luke

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    Hey Lutan, thats great, thanks for running the answer out. As stated before, we don't have any jacks to do the job right now, but it will give room for inventive cribbing to try to make the job go with a different method. Definitely something to think about.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    Default Another method

    Here's another way to flap a roof on an inverted vehicle, but doesn't involve any lifting of the undercarriage.

    1. Stabilize,including some type of buttress/strut at the vehicle's rear.
    2. Remove any rear glass.
    3. Cut the rear roof posts.
    4. Make a relief cut in the roof rail on both sides of the car, at the point you want to lay it down.
    5. Removing the trunk will also give you more overhead space.

    Here's a photo:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Hmmmmmmm, I like it.
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

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