1. #1
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    Post Chicago discrimination award

    White firefighters awarded $2.3 million in discrimination case

    (Chicago-AP) -- Nine white firefighters in Chicago have been
    awarded more than two (m) million dollars in a discrimination case.
    Their scores on a lieutenant's test were lowered 16 years ago
    because the city wanted to promote minorities.
    A federal jury has found that eight of the men would have
    attained the rank of captain by now if they hadn't been passed over
    -- and at least three would have been promoted to battalion chief
    after promotional exams this past February.
    The city lowered the scores of white firefighters to even the
    results of what was believed to be a racially-biased test. The
    practice known as "race norming" was made illegal by the 1991
    Civil Rights Act.
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    Question

    How can a test be racially biased? That sounds like the administration is saying "Minorities are too dumb to compete on an even plane." (Which I wholeheartedly disagree with) I think anyone who was involved in this should be outraged. If anyone has any insight into what this adminstration was thinking, let me know.

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    I just read the news article and it does appear that some of those white firefighters, who had their scores artificially lowered were indeed discriminated against. Not to defend this practice,which was just plain wrong, but I think the rationale behind it was that Blacks from inner city schools have the opertunity to recieve the same quality of education that their white counterparts do in sub-urban schools.

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    In retrospect though, thats not realy the Fire Depts fault and should be addressed by the Government improving inner city schools, not by artificially depriving white people of a job in the fire service.

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    this subject gets me really mad. Ever since 9-11 most paid departments are looking for minorites. I heard that even some will give the job to a minorite even if his score is lower then a white person and being white thats not fair to me!
    Jeff Gurski

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    Chicago has a very unique make up and policies.
    Minorities have been getting hired and promoted over better qualified people to fill equal oportunity quotas for a long time.
    I don't claim to understand all of the politics involved, but as an example Chicago has two unions Local #2 and a black firefighters union.

    "that's all I have to say about that"

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    Wow, I think that would be illegal here. The two unions thing

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    Angry White test

    Why have separate tests for races? If you can't pass, try again! Who suffers with uncapble supervision. Second question. Who dies, and Why?

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    Default Chicago

    I have to agree with Smoke286!

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    As infuriating as this is, it has been going on for some time. At least at one of the large depts on this side of the border. A number of years ago the application entrance exams for being hired went from using your actual test scores to a pass or fail. So the way it sits right now, it doesn't matter if you get 100% or 85%, if you pass you pass. The actual percentage of your test score isn't taken into consideration during the hiring process. Unfortunately that means that a good number of more qualified people are passed over in order to allow minorities in. Those minorities also include women up here. The dept in question, which shall remain nameless, will deny that is what they are doing, but they got on the recruiters backs about having more Middle Eastern, Asian, Black, and women fire fighters. As an example if a woman who was Black or Middle Eastern applied and scored lower then a white women, the woman who was Black or Middle Eastern would be hired, passing over the other woman and countless men. It is all part of the quota system they say doesn't exsist. It bothers me particularly because less qualified women will be hired over more qualified men. It isn't that I don't think women should be in the fire service, I am a woman, I just don't believe in making a quota. If you can do the job within the same general level as the majority of the dept then fine. The standards should not be altered or lowered to allow someone in just for the sake of having them there. That is one fast way to end up with someone getting hurt, and chances are it wont be the person who shouldn't be there in the first place.

    The physical testing is the same here as well. It used to be that your time in the fitness test was taken into consideration along with your other test scores and interview, now it is a pass or fail. If someone does the fit test in 5:29 (fail is 5:30) they could be selected over someone who did their fit test in 3:20 and also scored higher on their other tests.

    It isn't right and it isn't fair, but it does happen all over. I am glad that finally someone caught them at it, and did something about it.

    Smoke286
    There were and possibly still are several different fire fighter unions. Up until a few years ago we had one station in the city that belonged to a seperate union. I don't believe it's illegal unless you belong to more than one union. Then I believe it is only a violation of the union bylaws. If you were caught, you could be terminated from both unions. That goes for any two unions, it doesn't matter if it is two fire fighter unions or not. Once you are accepted into the IAFF, you can't be a card carrying member of another union.

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    ADSN/WFLD – Does that mean they have two separate negotiated contracts or is one of the union’s more or less just a social club?
    And what do you think would happen if someone were to start the “Professional White Firefighters Association”?
    Just curious!

    Peace!

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    If you get the best score on any test whether it be entrance or for the chief of dept, then you deserve the job. Discrimination goes both ways. Minorities don't realize that when they endorse these
    policies they actually devalue themselves and lower the perception of
    their ability to perform the job at hand. These policies were put in
    place by tree-hugging,hippy,bleeding heart mutts who want to right the wrongs committed over 135 yrs. ago before anyone on this planet was born. My ancestors were in Ireland, they never had slaves so I
    don't owe any minority anything!! As far as the verdict in Chicago,
    maybe it will wake the MUTTS up and see that these types of policies will hit them in the pocketbook. The people who vote should take notice that the BS policies that their elected leaders passed will
    put an additional financial burden on them, and hopefully they will decide against re-electing the MUTTS. Really unlikely though.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
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    Fire Dept. City of New York

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    Puffy... Glad you're back. I hope you are well.

    If you get the best score on any test whether it be entrance or for the chief of dept, then you deserve the job. Discrimination goes both ways. Minorities don't realize that when they endorse these
    policies they actually devalue themselves and lower the perception of
    their ability to perform the job at hand.
    I totally agree. I HATE the fact that there are quotas, not that you would actually get anyone to admit they are still there. It isn't just restricted to fire service. Some institutions actually have incentives to recruit minorities. In several municipal jurisdictions of the city I live in, I SHOULD be considered a visible minority. Not because I am a woman... because I am white. I have never and will never accept or expect any kind of special consideration for either. It does bother me that the powers that be still insist that because I am white, I have to give people of other ethnic backgrounds special consideration. Frankly I am tired of all the political correctness. I'm not saying we should go back to the way things were 50 or 100 years ago, but I am saying that NO ONE should recieve ANY special consideration because of their ethnic background, sexual preference, or sex. All that does is alienate groups of people. If you can do the job, any job then you should be allowed to do it, but the best person for the job should still be chosen for it.

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    If there was a "Professional White Firefighters Association", the Jesse Jacksons, Al Sharptons, Kweise Mfumes and Louis Farrakhans would be up in arms, calling it a "racist organization". That would make the Vulcan Society and any "Professional Black Firefighters Association" racist organizations also!

    From Dr. Martin Luther King's "I have a Dream" speech...

    "I have a dream..that one day a man will be judged by not the color of his skin but by the content of his character...

    The Mutts that keep telling their African American brothers that they need to have "special considerations" are the very ones that are keeping the stereotype alive... They can't hold a candle to what Dr. King stood for.

    The jobs should go to the best qualified candidates...based not on the color of their skin by by the content of their character!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    This has been happening in my department for the last 25 years. It use to be that you had to score in the 99 to 98 percentile to even be considered for employment, now it is basically pass or fail and they never follow the list in order. They choose anyone from the list, even it means by-passing 500 more qualified individuals. At one time they actually allowed minorities from other city departments (especially the bus drivers) to unilaterally transfer without testing. To top that off we actually have some members ( a small percentage but) who are incapable of reading or writing above the 8th grade level. Go figure.

    When I came on you had to have an average of 85% to pass the academy, that was changed to 70% back in the mid 70's. I had an instructor in the academy that stated, he would not want to fight fires with anyone who would be wrong more than 15% of the time. I found that a good analogy.

    We have many blacks, hispanics, women and many more minorities who are excellent firefighters and that I have a lot of respect for and I feel that they are labeled because of the unqualified ones who were chosen because of their race or gender. We currently have a council member that is demanding that 50% of all new hires be female, whether they can pass the exam or physical agility is irrelevent to her. She hasn't had her way yet and hopefully she never will. I only want to see the best hired not the politically correct! Mine and those of my crews life depends on having highly qualified personnel hired. This is politically correctness gone amok.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 05-22-2002 at 12:59 PM.

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    Jam 1902, wile I don't have all the details about the black union I do know they greave just about any write up that comes from a white officer against a black FF. So it is an actual union, with powers. The black FF are also in Local 2. I don't know how or the specifics but the situation makes for some animosity.

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    Now while I am glad to see that the case was won and am very much against the policy of changing anypersons scores for any reason here is my question. How did they win? Is there not a law that states that a person can not be charged with a crime that happened before it was made a crime or is this different because it was a civil case? Dr.Law I'm looking your way.
    the truth never hides for long

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    FireLt1951

    This is where the problem began here. There was some woman politician that decided woman were being discriminated against because of the physical test. I think it was 10 years ago, anyway the first woman that was hired DID NOT have to pass any physical. Several that followed should NEVER have been allowed in the station, never mind on the business end of a hose. They didn't last in the dept (loc 18) very long. There are currently 7 woman, a couple of them, in my opinion shouldn't be in the dept. The others either quit when they had kids or simply couldn't take it. The guys here are really hard on woman, they are hard on any probie, I don't blame them. Like you said your life and the lives of your crew depend on the competancy of the members. I hate to say it, but if you don't think someone is capable of doing the job, they can be forced out.

    I have no idea what it is like in your depts, but here the probie does everything. If it is a one man, he does it alone, two then the probie and the next junior guy and so one. When the tones go in the middle of the night, the probie gets up regardless of who the call is actually for, and stays up until the rig comes back. If it isn't his rig going, he rinsing off the other one, reconnects the exhaust etc when the rig comes back. When physical drills are done, if it is wrong or too slow, then EVERYONE comes down on him, if you don't know how to do something then ask. Everyone on the crew drills the probie on the apparatus, if the answer is wrong and the probie doesn't IMMEDIATELY go look, he will spend the next several hours between calls detailing the apparatus.If the probie has a problem with heights or something, then he climbs ladders, the aerial, the hose tower whatever until he can either do it blind folded or quits. During meals (probie cooks all of them, and does the dishes) the probie doesn't sit until an officer INVITES him to do so. It is the same for every person that comes in: man, woman, or purple flying ape. Some simply can't take it, and they quit, often going to newer depts that wont be so hard on them.

    There was once a woman on the dept who couldn't jump on the back of the rig without hurting her back (she was very short). How she ever managed to walk around with an SCBA is simply beyond me. The ones that are in now can do the job, the big problem is that if someone even looks at them the wrong way they want to scream discrimination. Which is not only manipulative but flat out wrong. Personally I feel that we (women) walked into what has traditionally been a man's domain, if we want to stay in that domain, then we have to play by the rules, that means allowing the men to treat us the same as they would any man.

    Unfortuneatly, in my opinion, women in the dept here have been given too much power. I would love it if later down the road I was in a position of training. Being as I am a woman no one could come back and say that I was discriminating against them based on sex.

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    I don't have any problem with black, hispanic, asian, women, polka dot, vulcan, or mermaids as firefighters. The problem I have is people
    who were handed jobs because of these factors. To the black firefighters of the Chicago Fire Dept., if you don't like it, QUIT.
    You are no better than me or anyone else, you do not deserve to go
    ahead of anyone in promotional testing or entrance testing. You want it? EARN IT!!! The right way. The last thing the fire service needs is a bunch of unqualified morons leading other humans into a potential life altering situation!! This has happened elsewhere, let's pray it doesn't happen again.
    Hi Temptaker, thanks for the welcome back!!!
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

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    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

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    Default As a matter of fact...

    There are still about 25 white Chicago FF's waiting for damage awards relating to the City passing them over after rigging those Lieutenant's test scores. So far, the highest damage award was $408,000. And the City could care less, because it comes out of the taxpayer's pockets, not the elected officials. The fire and police departments of the City of Chicago are allegedly the front line defense, but the garbage truck drivers and the meter maids get treated better than they do.

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    Default 1 UNION

    There is only 1 Union in the Chicago Fire Department. IAFF Local 2 is the sole bargaining unit for city firefighters,officers through the rank of battalion chief and paramedics. Some black "leaders" are stirring some ****.they dont really care about anything but their own agendas.
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 05-27-2002 at 05:00 PM.

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