1. #1
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    Question FDNY & Ferrarra Apparatus

    As a FDNY buff from Syracuse, New York I was surprised to see that FDNY was taking deliveries of pumpers from Ferrarra Fire Apparatus to be utilized as Engine Companies.

    FDNY normally purchases Seagraves for their Engine Companies and Aerialscopes and or Seagraves for their Truck Companies. One of the main reasons why they do this is because Seagrave makes a tough truck which is what FDNY needs.

    I've seen the quality of fire apparatus that Ferrarra manufactures, and I am surprised that these Engine are going to hold up in New York City. These guys do a lot of runs, and they beat on their apparatus. I don't see Ferrarra holding up to the wear and tear like Seagrave and Saulsbury does.

    Also, who decides what companies are going to get these "toy" looking trucks? Engine 283 in Brooklyn got one. I wonder how these guys feel about that? Almost like the station down the road getting a Caddy and them receiving a Geo.
    Chris Shields
    Lieutenant / EMT
    Haz-Mat Technician
    East Syracuse Fire Dept
    Onondaga County, NY

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    Engine 283 was a donation from the people of Louisiana. Ferrara, and many other manufacturers, donated vehicles to fill the gap for FDNY after the loss of apparatus on 9-11.

    http://www.ferrarafire.com/Bucks_Web_Info/index.html

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    At least they used the specs to build the truck. According to a friend of mine in FDNY the Luverne wasn't even close to FDNY
    specs.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

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    SIGNAL99.com,

    Why don't you try to use your head before you type on your computer. Engine 283 was donated by a group of people who felt they needed to do something to help in response to a terrible tragedy. I don't care what kind of truck was donated, it has to be in better shape than the trucks lost in the collapse. Don't belittle the offering made by them to try to help. As far as the guys who got the truck assigned to them, I can't answer for them. All I can say is that I would be PROUD to ride a truck that was donated with love from people who care.
    Life is only temporary, but freedom goes on forever. God bless those who gave all.

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    FIREFIGHTERS put out FIRES.FIRE ENGINES DO NOT.I am sure if you hooked up a GARDEN HOSE to a GEO the men of Engine 283 would make it work.

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    Ferrara puts out a good truck - especially when it's donated out of courtesy and caring. Every department, FDNY included has run out of some total crap, and still done their job effectively. How many years did FDNY use worn out junkheap Macks until they found a suitable replacement for them?

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    Thumbs up

    Ferrara and the people of Louisiana filled a need, and there is no discrepancy as to where the money went...end of story. I applaud everyone else who has made similar comments.
    ~FireDawgStew~

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    Signal99, I agree with every other poster. The kind people of Louisiana donated this to help the brothers of FDNY and let them know that they are in their thoughts. How dare you presume that FDNY is overnight going to make a wholesale change from Seagrave and Saulsbury. It is comments like yours that make ALL fire fighters look bad. But I have a question. What, in your opinion, makes Seagrave and Saulsbury so great? I know of their strong points and they both make great rigs with no doubt. What about the Mack pumpers they used before? Does that mean they couldn't handle it? Last I checked the Macks ran many, many years and gave and are still giving great service. Does that mean the previous Pierce and Providence bodies on mack "R" chassis used by the FDNY Rescue Co.'s couldn't hold up? They were such capable rigs for their day that other departments bought the same spec rigs for their Rescue Co.'s. How about the ALF 100' Tower assigned to Ladder Co. 14 for years? Was it not capable of working in Manhatten? I suppose the Freightliner/ALF rescue vehicle donated by the fine citizens of Oklahoma for a dedicated spare is not going to hold up either. And oh no, the new rescue apparatus have Saulsbury bodies, but their built on E-One Cyclone II chassis. Are they not gonna make it either? What about the Spartan chassis on the tower ladder at Ladder Co. 105? Is it gonna quit working after 100 runs? You do realize that the MSU runs non-Seagrave & non-Saulsbury units right? Their made by Hackney & sons. Are they gonna lose parts as they run down the street? Is the new FCU gonna fall apart because its made by ALF instead of Saulsbury? This little sermon of mine is meant to educate you on one thing..............................Know what your talking about before you speak, you never know who is listening.
    Last edited by STATION2; 05-25-2002 at 06:16 PM.
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    " I suppose the Freightliner/ALF rescue vehicle donated by the fine citizens of Oklahoma is not going to hold up either."

    Personally, I am not going to enter into this, just going to add some facts here.

    The new rescue has already been earmarked as a spare/reserve. The other one I think you mean, the FL, is the TRV, Tatical Response Vehicle for Squad 1. Kind of like how Chicago's squads have several rigs assigned to one Squad.

    "At least they used the specs to build the truck. According to a friend of mine in FDNY the Luverne wasn't even close to FDNY
    specs"

    The Luverne is, like the ALF that E34 got, a test rig. We are currently testing a Spartan/Luverne Tower Ladder and Engine Co.

    "How many years did FDNY use worn out junkheap Macks until they found a suitable replacement for them?"

    Junkheap? You are entitled to your opinion. All I will say is, after the inital switch, and even to this day. I miss my old Mack.
    Doc DC3<br />ex FDNY (E74)

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    No offense intended to the mighty Macks - by junkheap I was referring to what many had turned into by the time they were finally retired. The CF Macks were great rigs, and are still serving well where they've been refurbed and/or seen a whole hell of a lot less use. I'd like to get my hands on one as a matter of fact

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    There's a vollie department in Saluda Co, SC running an old FDNY Mack pumper as their first out engine (last time I checked) I asked a vollie from a neighboring department what kind of truck it was..he said " The best way to put it is like this....It looks like crap, but pumps like hell" He went on to say that the department that has the truck is limited in funds, and got a great deal on the truck. The sent someone up north to drive the truck down here, and they said it made the trip with ease. They said it's got rust spots, more than a couple battle scars, and the paint is faded....but it proves that beauty is only skin deep.

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    Beauty is only skin deep...ugly goes to the bone...bulldogs are ugly...the symbol for Mack is a bulldog...bulldogs are tough, so were Mack fire trucks!

    We had two Mack CF-600's... Engine 6 and Ladder 2 they were a 1972 and a 1975 respectively. At the end of their service life, they looked like hell but ran better than some of our newer rigs. When you figure the cost factor from their purchase and maintenance (including a rehab of each in the early 90's)...they didn't owe the City a dime!

    I feel that Mack made a huge mistake when they discontinued making fire apparatus!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 05-25-2002 at 07:45 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Default Just don't forget,fellas

    Just don't forget,everybody, fire trucks don't put out fires-their occupants do. Having every bell,whistle, tool,gadget and dohickey doesn't mean a damned thing if the guys riding that rig aren't capable professionals. Way back when, when there were $20,000 fire trucks, there were million dollar firemen. Now we have 300-400-500 and up thousand dollar trucks, and in some cases $1.50 firemen. Every department has a need, and the apparatus companies do what they can to fulfill that need. Don't focus so much on the apparatus-even though it's what the public often equates with the fire department alone, someone needs to place the focus on the vehicle's occupants-always.

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    Default " on 9/12 We've have given thanks for a tin lizzy"

    The generosity of the American people can't be conveyed in one posting. After having seen so many rigs annililated and knowing we didn't have enough spare apparatus to fill the void you realize how trivial all else becomes. The Luverne , Pierce , and a host of other manufacturers are now complimenting FDNY's fleet all donated or on loan till permanent replacements are recieved. I remember covering Lad. 9's district because L9 's apparatus was badly damaged and we covered for them for 3 days till there old rig could be located and put into service. We recieved what was referred to as old macks from community's near and far some without windshields or in badly need of TLC and they all looked like mercedes to one who was trying to figure out how to get to the next fire. For the long haul I'm not sure how practical it will be to have so many manufacturers rigs represented for the fleet, maintaining parts and such to keep them from suffering long down times seems to be a stumbling block and some rigs came in with heated mirrors, stereos and leather seating which is something we all love but hardly practical in our day to day use.. But I wouldn't trade any for a million bucks because they all stand for something pretty special.. U.S.A is #1...
    "Knowledge is Power"
    Bill Y

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    I am proud of our state of Louisiana and the people here for putting togather a drive and raising the donations to build the engine for FDNY. I am sure the people of NY are very grateful to Louisiana and the other states that donated equipment to replace lost equipment in the 911 terrorist attack. I an also certain that these will not be put "outback" in the salvage yard , but into duty protecting New York where they will serve FDNY well. We many times make the statemnet " call me if you need anything" but rarly mean it. I am proud our state, as well as many others, responded to the call.....Louisiana came through.

    FDNY....call us if you need anything, we really are with you!
    REMEMBER THE FALLEN!


    FIREHOSE

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    Thumbs up

    I was looking at my post on this subject and It looks like I underplayed the significance of the generosity of the people of Louisiana.I was really trying to make the point that fire engines do not make the firefighter. I am not from Louisiana, but I spend a quite a bit of time there. As a firefighter and an American,I think it was a wonderful thing to do. I am sure the members of Engine 283 will have a special place in their hearts for LOUISIANA too !

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    Question Does anybody know?????

    Anybody heard from our good-buddy-fire-buff SIGNAL99.com? He posted this fantastic question and made himself look like an idiot, where did he go?

    Lets hear from you SIG. Any thought about retracting your statement or apoligizing?

    Just wondering.
    Life is only temporary, but freedom goes on forever. God bless those who gave all.

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    I agree Medic 129. Some type of comment or follow-up would be nice. However silence is golden...
    ~FireDawgStew~

    Gay Male looking for same

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    I'm not sure of how E283 feels about the new rig, but the other companys in the area are shaking their heads because that is one fast s.o.b. We stoped to talk to the company when they were getting the meal one day last month and the officer said "it's to fast". lol
    bob g R-2

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    Exclamation Its what is inside that counts...

    I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that FDNY and Seagrave have a long term contract for apparatus. If so, wasn't the contract put out for bid, contractors bid and this is the end result: FDNY run Seagrave for the length of the contract. If this was indeed the situation, (and again, correct me if I am wrong), I don't think you can specify that it must say Seagrave across the front in a bid process. Here in Cincinnati we used to run Seagraves, then Sutphen won the contract, then E-One. We just sent back 4 Luvernes (lawsuit pending) that didn't meet spec after they won the bid.
    My point is this, it is not necessarily the best rig that a fire department is using, rather the one who is most willing to work a little closer to their profit margin in order to secure the volume work. We cannot assume that because FDNY uses it, itmust be the best, any more than we can assume because they don't that it is no good. For all of our best intentions, the purchasing office is where the deal is made.

    One other point:

    Question - If it has a Detroit engine, a Hale pump, an Allison tranny, an International chassis and Whelen lights, who made it?

    Answer - whom ever can put it all in one truck for the least amount of dough.

    Most fire apparatus are going to be about the same. We tend to be loyal to the brand that gets us there each day, if for no other reason than "it got us there". ALL manufacturers occasionally put out equipment that would qualify as lemons. What sets the good from the bad are those that service the equipment the best, whether that be through replacement parts, tech support, correction of manufacturing defects, or actually servicing the apparatus. I suspect that the apparatus donated to the FDNY is superior to most because it was put together with a little (probably a lot of) extra attention to detail, which is what quality is all about.

    I believe a standing ovation is due the people of Lousianna and Ferrara.
    Last edited by firemangeorge; 05-28-2002 at 02:57 PM.
    See You At The Big One

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    Default For your info...

    The following is a list of the FDNY vehicle fleet according to Fire Apparatus Journal's 2002 Guide to NYC vehicles. This list is all front line, reserve and spare apparatus and support vehicles. It includes Engine, ladder and rescue companies with Haz mat, SOC, the training school, Fire Patrol and fleet vehicles. It does not include the ambulances and chief's vehicles which are all Ford and GMC anyway. According to the guide book it is accurate as of March 2002. I have included the vehicles that I know to have been delivered. There are more vehicles on order from a variety of manufacturers.

    American LaFrance= 5
    Mack= 99
    Seagrave= 366
    Ferrara= 5
    Spartan/Luverne= 2
    Saulsbury (incl. E-One, HME + Mack chasis)= 35
    Hackney= 4
    Pierce/KW= 1
    Amertek= 1
    Peterbilt= 1
    Ford= 20
    GMC= 38


    There is a variety of body makers that have built on the Ford and GM chasis that includes, but is not limited to, Columbia Coach, Union City, Grumman, SuperVac, Com Coach, Kaiser, Wheeled Coach and AEV.

    So this should show that FDNY is not exclusive in it's vehicle purchases to any one or two companies.
    Last edited by Engine5FF; 05-28-2002 at 01:11 PM.
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    Default FDNY Fleet

    FDNY has used any number of manufacturers over the yrs. You can imagine the amount of parts that are needed to be kept on hand to service such a large fleet. NYC doesn't usually spring for alot of bells and whistles there usually well thought out for what works for us. Any rig chosen has to meet stringent guidelines. Seagrave uses cold roll steel for there cabs. Is it the best I'm not going there lol. our fleet prior to 9/11 was all Seagrave for rear mount and tower ladders and 90 + percent of the pumpers were also.. The macks and Amercian LaFrance were basically spares or very soon to be replaced. Mack was our primary rig until 1981 when American LAfrance underbid. I don't remember too many companies that cared for them and dumped em for spares at first oppurtunity. Mack got out of the fire truck business per se around 1990 and seagrave was the low bidder and provided then and I still believe an excellent warranty.As a recently retired unit commander I never gave much thought to name as functionality. I was pleased with seagrave as I was with Mack.. I just wanted a rig that could take a beating lord knows we did that and more, and was reliable. I remember the E-One that made the rounds for torture testing.. It had some nice features but really couldn't hold up in the busy shops. After 9/11 it became apparent that city's and companys across the country gave of themselves and of course it shows. Seagrave and a host of manufacturers stepped up to the plate and citys , Towns and Communitys have given rise to the meaning of made in America..
    "Knowledge is Power"
    Bill Y

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    Default No cookie cutters here....

    It seems that people are still focusing on the apparatus and not the men on the apparatus. That has been one thing I have always liked about the FDNY, because as plain jane as they sometimes buy their apparatus, the Department's flexibility in allowing the companies to show their company spirit in logos, numbering, and other touches have turned some very boring rigs into some real standouts. All of the rigs donated as a result of 9/11, while maybe not "traditional" in the true FDNY sense, will serve many purposes, some operational, some sentimental.

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