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  1. #1
    Junior Member
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    Default Smooth Bore vs Fog on Hand Lines

    OK, Iam trying to form my opinion on the question of smooth bore vs fog nozzles for interior attack lines. I am looking for the info for flow rates, nozzle reaction, pressure, control ect. pros and cons of both. And some basic reasons for choices of each. Honestly looking for both sides of the coin, I/m not just opening up the can of worms.
    BRUZER


  2. #2
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    For flows and pressures go to the TFT, Akron, Elkhart, POK or Vindicator Web sites.

    Certain types of combination nozzles on the market give you excellent reach and penetration with the straight stream position and therefore you do not need a SB. Also can go with a breakapart and have the Tip only for fog.

    I am a believer in the SB for sure...but....you have to realize that if things go south and all you have is a smooth bore then you have no way to use the fog to protect you. Don't get me wrong and I am sure someone will attack me but I have used both types. Not really allowed to tell my whole opinion and recommendation here but I have tried many different combinations and see some on the market that are great. If you are dead set on SB then I suggest you go with a ball valve shut-off with at least a 15/16" waterway and use the TIP only combination for fog.

    I do suggest that you contact all your local representatives for the nozzles and have them bring out different combinations of nozzles based on your needs and do side by side testing.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  3. #3
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE E40FDNYL35's Avatar
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    We still miss our Vindicator. Try it you may like it........
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  4. #4
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    Default

    I need to say first off that I sell all types of fire equipment which includes Vindicator, Elkhart, Akron, & TFT. With that being said, my department uses both the Vindicator and Elkhart Chiefs.

    We will usually pull the Vindicator Heavy Attack first and then follow it up with the Elkhart Chief for overhaul.

    Flow rate for the Vindicator 250-gpm @ 50-psi nozzle pressure.
    Flow rate for the Elkhart Chief 150-gpm @ 50-psi nozzle pressure.

    Hope this helps.

    P.P.

  5. #5
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    Default

    I'm with the captain here...gotta be prepared to protect yourself. But the SB is a dandy for defensive operations, particularly on a 2 1/2...good reach.

  6. #6
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    Both have their place. We have TFT fogs on our preconnects, however we have SB available if we need a smooth bore's reach and penetration. The only problem I have found with the fog is the incredible amount of steam you can quickly produce with them. You really cant pick one over the other because they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

  7. #7
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    PP
    What size line are pulling to flow 250 gpm at 50 psi? What kind of stream do you get with that nozzle?
    Regards, Brian

  8. #8
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    Brian Macc

    We getting those flows from our 1 3/4" lines. The stream is a straight stream with large water droplets.

    P.P.

  9. #9
    Forum Member 911WACKER's Avatar
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    Default

    The following are rough figures:

    Fog nozzle at 125gpm/100psi- 63lbs +/- reaction force

    Smooth Bore 3/4" at 55psi/123gpm- 48lbs +/- reaction force

    Smooth Bores and fog nozzles have there place in the fire service, maybe having both pre-connected would be a wise choice so that you may select the proper nozzle for each job!!
    Firefighter/NREMT-P/Public Safety Diver
    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

  10. #10
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
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    Talking

    Haven't we done all this before?

    Smooth bore - Straight stream - fog/combination nozzle - Vindicator - ALL of these nozzles have major benefits or disadvantages, it depends on the fire conditions presenting at the time. I still say that firefighters who debate WHICH type of nozzle is BEST are in need of some fire behavior training!

    DIRECT ATTACK where the structure/room is fully involved and the fire is easily accessed and remains un-shielded - smooth-bores; Vindicators; CAFS will all be the best options here.

    INDIRECT ATTACK (exterior offensive) where the fire is presenting signs of backdraft or under-ventilated conditions; fog/sprays creating masses of steam will serve to make the entry for firefighters safer. If you cook someone who is occupying the compartment - so be it! Chances are they are already dead. To enter for a direct attack under such conditions could prove fatal to the firefighters.

    3D WATER-FOG APPLICATIONS (using 'pulsing' fog patterns) are most suited to situations where heavy smoke is presenting on the entry route (for defensive 'gas-cooling' or smoke 'inertion'; or where smoke and fire gases are reservouring in the overhead; or where a reservoir of fire gases are burning off in the overhead or in a stair-shaft (for example). Such an application precedes a DIRECT ATTACK to complete suppression - so in this situation a combination (straight stream or fog pattern) nozzle is the best tool.

    If you had to pick ONE of all options for interior firefighting then the COMBINATION nozzle is the most versatile for ALL situations - if not always the best!

    http://www.firetactics.com/GAS-COOLING.htm

  11. #11
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Default

    Paul....we agree...

    Combination nozzles give you best bang for your buck...you have it all...Fog....and ss (equivalant to 15/16" SB) with reach and hitting power... For those non believers....take a good combination nozzle and go out from it about 6' on ss position...you can get a pitot reading.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
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    Default

    Look back at the history of your company and find out what kind of attack is most common FOR YOU.
    Then:
    Put the different nozzles on your hose and test them, having many of the people who would be on the attack handle them and discuss the differences. (if you don't have them, see if you can borrow one from the neighbors)

    Use the one that best works FOR YOUR COMPANY AND SITUATION. Don't take what you hear on these message boards as gospel. Some nozzles are "cool" and have all the features, and some are heavy old slabs of brass that do the job. Don't get sucked into the bells and whilstles of the darn things unless they can do the job with little to no failure and minimal maintinence.

    Example: I work in a very busy urban area and have less than a 4 minute response to the first alarm area. We use smooth bore nozzles, up to 7/8" tip for our interior attacks. We usually get a good jump on the fire and confine it to the room. Almost all of our structure fires fit into the above category. The smooth bore tip fits our uses well, and does a great job.

    My brother works for a very rural volunteer department not very far away. He tells me he has never been on an interior attack except for live fire training- the response times in his district are (much) greater and the fire usually gets a better start on the structure before they get there. From what I've seen, they only have combination nozzles on their hoses. Why? Probably because that is what works best for them. I won't say that I know their tactics well, but I'm willing to bet that if they needed different nozzles they wouldn't be running with the ones they have.

    My point? Do your homework and test, test, test. Spend some time discussing the good and bad on a functional level and choose which works best for you.

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