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  1. #26
    StroutKristen
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    Lightbulb EDUCATION HELPS

    THANK YOU FOR SAYING WHAT I WANTED TO SAY IN AN EDUCATED WAY!!! AT LEAST THE PART ABOUT NFPA AND IT'S GOVERNING ABILITIES!!!

  2. #27
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    Temptaker -- There is a lot of truth to what you say. I mean for most it is unthinkable to go back to exterior, surround and drown firefighting; but if your community cannot supply you with gear and equipment that meets NFPA guidelines what can they expect?

    Mr. Wendt -- Thanks for the further insight into the NFPA and it's role. You're right, many people (me included) aren't completely up to speed on how the NFPA is structured.



    Another question......Shouldn't the headlines on the home page of Firehouse.com read as follows: "Brothers and Sisters expected to do the job with sub-standard gear and equipment" or "Outrage that the lack of funding and disregard for safety prompts firefighters march on Washington" or "Insurance companies demand our nations Bravest be properly protected!"

    I saw the outrage at Lairdsville played out before me...why aren't these issues met with the same intensity? Explain to me how letting people do this job without proper protection is any less irresponsible than Mr. Baird's actions.
    Last edited by StayBack500FT; 05-29-2002 at 11:54 AM.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

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    George, thank you for the deeper info on the NFPA and their "Not Governing" abilities. Being still kinda wet behind the ears, I know a little about what the NFPA means, having started to do reading on that subject, but as has been said before, there are volumes and volumes of information there. One thing I do know for sure though, is how and where to look to find the NFPA, that was the easy part.

    As for following the code, my dept does its level best to adhere to them as best as possible. Some things just don't apply, because we have no call for it, such as hi-rise rescue, we don't have any buildings higher than two stories in our district. (Thank you Rural Communities. )

    When talking about funding etc to increase the level of "professional" training (I mean classroom/academy level training), I could go into a long tirade on that subject but this is not the place to chew down people that I have personally never met. Here I am speaking about our Regional Governing body, who seem to be more interested in looking out for themselves than the 6 volunteer depts that they "administer". In short, we aren't likely to receive funding from there any time soon. I think that is all that need be said there. Imagination and in some cases direct experience for some of you, will fill in the blanks on that one. Suffice to say that it would be wonderful to be able to take the required amount of time off away from work and family to do the training, and to know that when I came away with the "official certification", I would feel that I have done something good to improve myself and the service that I can provide. However, that is not to say that my dept does the best it can with the tools available. A couple of us have had the opportunity to attend academy level training and they bring back lots of good info, and we try to incorporate that information into our procedures, where possible.

    When we are called, we do our job to the best of our ability and capability and we do it with professionalism at all times.
    Last edited by MalahatTwo7; 05-29-2002 at 03:54 PM.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    STAY BACK... I like NFPA standards!! When the big boys try to meet standards -- we poor rural depts MIGHT get some hand-me-downs to replace the raincoats

  5. #30
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    O.K....Now I'm a deaf, big dog.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

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    Hey Stayback

    I checked out those NFPA web sites.

    If you got a few of their manuals bound together I reckon you would have enough for one wheel chock.

    Kinda nice to have the regs right at hand on the scene.


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    Start at page one, progress to page two, etc etc.

  8. #33
    StroutKristen
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    Talking YOU ARE A LIFESAVER

    THANK YOU!!!

  9. #34
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    George Wendt, CFI

    Thanks for the great post, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me.

    StayBack500FT

    The headlines should show the outrage of the profession. You are completely right, I don't think allowing anyone to go to a fire scene with substandard equipment is any less criminal then what Baird did... in fact it is probably more criminal.

    Myron Pierce

    I hope they fit

  10. #35
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    Remember the firefighter in rural America...his picture posted on Firehouse.com for all to see? Checking for bombs in mailboxes, as I recall....and in an unacceptable turnout coat and gear?
    Did that photo cause concern in the firefighting community? Yes, of course it did. Did that firefighter receive NFPA approved turnout gear, as a result of that photo?

    I doubt it. He might have gotten a longer stick....but I'll bet you George's salary....he's still wearing the same old rubber coat.

    Question...would the bomb squad technician do the job without the approved gear?

    Question...would the SWAT team do their job without the proper gear?

    Why do rural firefighters do their job without the proper gear?
    Answer: Not enough deaths or injuries due to improper gear. We seem to be more reactive than proactive. That's the simple truth. Can anyone deny that....huh, anyone?
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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  11. #36
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    Originally posted by NJFFS_A16


    Why do rural firefighters do their job without the proper gear?
    Answer: Not enough deaths or injuries due to improper gear. We seem to be more reactive than proactive. That's the simple truth. Can anyone deny that....huh, anyone?

    This hits the nail on the head. It seems until Lairdsville, those training officers that melted your helmets down were viewed as pseudo-heroes to those of a Cletus persuasion...now when the same type of training officer gets someone killed he's crucified. (and rightly so)

    So sending guys and gals out in sub-standard gear is cool with everyone...UNTIL someone dies because of it. Then what will we say here? "What officer in his right mind sends underprotected firefighters into a burning building?" Or the old "NFPA says........"

    The outcry and screaming should be done now...if it isn't, some of the next blood spilled will be on our hands too. This "It's cool until someone dies" attitude should be changed. A bit harsh, but it's the way I think.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

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    This will not be popular, but...

    Question...would the bomb squad technician do the job without the approved gear?

    Question...would the SWAT team do their job without the proper gear?


    Both teams have extremely dangerous jobs. I am confident that both teams would absolutley refuse to perform the dangerous tasks associated with their jobs if they were not supplied with the proper equipment.

    And that is exactly what any fire fighter, paid or career, rural or urban, should do if they are not provided with the tools to do their jobs safely.

    I know. Some of you will post and say that you would do the job in your underwear. The job is too important to refuse to do. If they don't give us the tools, we'll work unsafely.

    Well, I think you are stupid. Do the world a favor, and if you truly feel this way, don't get married and don't have kids.

    Instead, direct your indignation towards the powers that be and DEMAND the right equipment and then stand up for yourselves. Really do it. Refuse to put yourself in a situation that OSHA describes as IDLH (immediately dangerous to life and health). No other occupation or vocation is expected to do it, so why should fire fighters?

  13. #38
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    George.

    Or as I had it explained to me by a crusty,

    "Make a difference in your job, or get of my planet and leave the precious oxygen for those that will."

  14. #39
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    Kiwi, I am not sure if that comment is directed at me, but then again, most of the time I don't know what you are talking about.

    Let me be a little clearer. I am the supervisor of a unit that conducts investigations into Arson and Environmental Crimes. My guys are equipped with every piece of equipment and PPE that they need to do their jobs in compliance with OSHA standards, as well as the applicable NFPA standards. They are all trained to the Haz Mat Technician level and receive constant training in fire investigations. We operate at our scenes using ICS and follow all appropriate law enforcement protocols.

    My guys would have it no other way. I would have it no other way. How could I possibly ask them to go into a hazardous location without properly protecting them? If I was unable to make sure that they had all the tools and equipment they needed to operate safely, I would be the first to say that the job is not going to get done UNTIL you give us the tools.

    That's just the way it is. It's bad enough that fire fighters are asked to place themselves into jeopardy to save other people and their property. Should we really be asking (expecting) them to do it without the proper gear? No, we shouldn't.

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    George, I couldn't say it any better.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  16. #41
    StroutKristen
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    Lightbulb SOMETHING TO KEEP FLYING KIWI OCCUPIED

    "positive side of life"
    >
    >
    > Living on Earth is expensive,
    > but it does include a free trip
    > around the sun every year.
    >
    > How long a minute is
    > depends on what side of the
    > bathroom door you're on.
    >
    > Birthdays are good for you;
    > the more you have,
    > the longer you live.
    >
    > Happiness comes through doors you
    > didn't even know you left open.
    >
    > Ever notice that the people who are late
    > are often much jollier
    > than the people who have to wait for them?
    >
    > Most of us go to our grave
    > with our music still inside of us.
    >
    > If Walmart is lowering prices every day,
    > how come nothing is free yet?
    >
    > You may be only one person in the world,
    > but you may also be the world to one person.
    >
    > Some mistakes are too much fun
    > to only make once.
    >
    > Don't cry because it's over;
    > smile because it happened.
    >
    > We could learn a lot from crayons:
    > some are sharp, some are pretty,
    > some are dull, some have weird names,
    > and all are different colors....but
    > they all exist very nicely in the same box.
    >
    > A truly happy person is one who
    > can enjoy the scenery on a detour.
    >
    > Have an awesome day, and
    > know that someone
    > who thinks you're great
    > has thought about you today!..
    > "And that person was me.".....

  17. #42
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    Thinking about Rural depts using sub-standard gear (or anyone for that matter) scares the hell outta me. I am thinking of my Dept, and we are a "Rural" dept, but we try to follow NFPA, OSH, WCB (thats Workers Compensation) and a couple others who's names I can't rememeber. Example: Our DC (yep the LSG) has gone through all our turnout gear (well we all did it together) and confirmed that it all meets NFPA standards and that the proper labels are visible. As a result, some of our gear, mine included was retired permanently because it didn't have the proper labels.

    The old stuff was locked up and will be disposed of fairly soon. The down result of this is that now we do not have enough gear to make "spare gear" with which to swap out while our regular gear is either getting cleaned or repaired. I suppose the good thing here is that each one of us will get some forced down time, while each set of gear is temporarily out of service.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

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  18. #43
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    George.

    Sorry for the mis -interpretation.

    I was agreeing with you.

    I have done military dog hanling, including #2 on bomb call outs. I have done EOD work.

    It is not fun.

    Would I do it now in the capacity of Firefighter. You would not see me within 1 mile of the damn thing.

  19. #44
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    Kristen, I think your question about gear is directed to me? If so, then the answer is no. Not bashing here or trying to be rude, but my Dept is Canadian and we don't fall under the US Fire authority(?) for grants or administration of any kind.

    We do have our own municiple, provincial and federal authorities and we do receive some funding from them. Our budget funds come from Regional District Authority, who "runs" a total of 6 volunteer depts. Major purchases have to be ratified by them before we are "allowed" to make the purchase. Doesn't always happen that way, but you didn't hear that from me. I'm just the Unit Engineer.

    We are in the process of buying new gear. The quotes are in, and it is now a matter of making the decision of who gets the contract.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    George.

    Sorry for the mis -interpretation.

    I was agreeing with you.


    I thought you were. No problem. I just have trouble with your writing style sometimes. I guess I have to learn to speak "Kiwi".

    George

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    Stayback , I think I missed what you asked the other day about where do we start with adhering to the small stuff or somthing along those lines?

    Simple. If the death of one firefighter in an incident like this is not enough to "draw a line in the sand", and say "OK, no more after this". Then what is?

    Look after the little things and the big things will look after themselves...
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

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    with a mouth shaped like this, it is not suprising some of the words come out funny.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  23. #48
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    Does anyone know how to contact the governing body is that holds the federal funding allocated to the fire service? Do they have a website etc? Being as I am from Canada, I'm not sure if it is the USFA or not.

    I have come to the conclusion that I want to write them a letter, pointing out the fact that all over the rural US fire fighters are taking unnecessary risks because their equipment is substandard.

    We can make arguments here until pigs fall from the sky but that isn't going to help anyone who is forced to work in excessively dangerous conditions.

    Considering the outcome of the Baird trial, I can't think of a better time to point out the need for funding to these smaller depts.

    Originally posted by StayBack500FtThe outcry and screaming should be done now...if it isn't, some of the next blood spilled will be on our hands too. This "It's cool until someone dies" attitude should be changed. A bit harsh, but it's the way I think.
    AMEN....

    stroutkristen
    Despite all of the publicity about terrorism....Recently, a private security guard opened a bag that was unaccounted for.....with no protective gear....next to firefighters with no protective gear.......
    1. Was this bag supposed to have a bomb in it?
    2. Why was the fire dept there in the first place?
    3. If the fire dept was there in the response to a call, why weren't they wearing protective gear?

    Imagine if the bag would have been packed with C-4? What a chance that man took at the expense of everyone else!
    How much do you know about explosives?

    If I were the Chief of the fire department, I would have sued the security company.
    Why would you sue the security company exactly? On what grounds? Who would be suing the fire dept?

    Kiwi... great pic

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    Temptaker.

    Outstanding

    I will ask a silly question considering how the vast majority of people in these forums feel about the issues.

    Maybe get the firehouse to put up a standardised letter sorted out via a forum thread, with an email address to send it to after signing.

    Wonder how many copies they would get in he first week.

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    Kiwi, you never cease to amaze me with your pictures. I am not sure where you find the time to dig them up, unless of course you just happen to have them on file somewhere. Keep it up, it's all good fun!!
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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