Wheel chocks....I don't gotta show you no steeeenkeeeeng wheel chocks......

[StayBack500FT]

O.K., so most of us agree what the incident at Lairdsville was a senseless tragedy. Now my question for you is...What happens if something senseless happens at your department? We are all human and mistakes like forgetting the occasional wheel chock happen sometimes. Are you covered? Does your errors and omissions insurance have enough bite to CYA? It's worth taking a look as my department just raised ours.

Another question, how are we going to treat violations of NFPA standards in general after all this? Will we jump on every violation? Are there some things that are "still O.K." to ignore since no one has been hurt or killed yet?

For example, NFPA lighting requirements on new fire service vehicles state upper level lights must be from the same manufacturer. So the lightbar is a Jetvector 2000 and the rear-facing lights are Blink-Blink Mach 1's, does this pose a criminal problem if the rig is involved in an accident?

Before you attack...I agree that the incident at Lairdsville was criminal...but how many times have the rest of us been criminal too?

[EastKyFF]

Saw video of a darn nice Ford pumper buried head-first in a burning building in OH a couple years ago...transfer line problem or something, I think.

Difference between that and Lairdsville: Brain fart vs. brain failure. But you bring up an excellent point that micromistakes kill just as effectively as macromistakes.

[MalahatTwo7]

Things to make you say: Hmmmmm.... You do bring up a good point Stayback, and it is true we all make small and in most cases inconsequential errors, or omissions. To Err is Human, or so the "Experts" say. Unfortunately it is also true that even a very small mistake can get someone else hurt or killed.

Certainly it is something to give consideration to.

On a slightly different bend in thougth here Stayback: Just how Deep into the Ministry of Transportation are you?

[StayBack500FT]

Malahat -- By answering that question, I could see the following in my future....


StayBack500FT
No Longer Active

[MOTOWN88]

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME ROOKIES DONT BELONG IN FRONT OF THE TIRES AS A WAY TO STOP IT FROM ROLLING AWAY???????

[firefighter26]

If we used rookies/probies as tire chocks two things would happen:

1. We would need more trucks
2. We would need to find someone else to do traffic

[StayBack500FT]

Originally posted by Malahat Two-7
Unfortunately it is also true that even a very small mistake can get someone else hurt or killed.

And if this is a minor infraction of NFPA guidelines is the responsible party guilty of Criminally Negligent Homicide?

OR------------ Is there such a thing as a "minor infraction" anymore?



And furthermore... The department in rural New Mexico that can't afford NFPA approved equipment, do we make them close their doors? Do we wait until they have a LODD and hang their officers for not providing the proper protection?


Again, what Baird did was clearly wrong...but now we must draw some difficult lines in the sand here.

[firefighter_632]

Probies as wheel chocks!?! That explains the marks on my back! My guess is that even thought there has been alot said and done in this case, there will be little change. I have actually heard a fire chief say that it is not possible to follow all the NFPA regulations and they just follow as many as they can within the budget. Some states are not even NFPA states but are under OSHA or EPA regulations. What I think we will see is business as usual but officers will be more aware of safety as they dont want to end up in a jail cell.

[StayBack500FT]

Originally posted by firefighter_632
My guess is that even thought there has been alot said and done in this case, there will be little change. I have actually heard a fire chief say that it is not possible to follow all the NFPA regulations and they just follow as many as they can within the budget.

So what happens to this guy when things go wrong. How will we, the fire service, react? Will we look in the mirror and recall the times that we've bent rules or guidelines? Will we look the other way and listen to the Baird family scream for equal treatment?


Please keep in mind...I believe Baird was guilty, but these are legitimate questions we will have to face at some period in the future.

[Bones42]

StayBack154.2 - In my opinion, all we can do is try our best. Not only in running safe drills, but in learning. We can try to learn/remember/review standards and guidelines and we can try to apply what we have learned/remembered/reviewed to the best of our abilities. Not one of us is perfect, but we must believe in what we are doing.
In firefighting and all that is part of it, "winging it" just does not work. We need to plan, we need to critique, we need to be able to accept responsibility, we need to recognize our weaknesses, we need to accept help and we need to offer help. We need to have an open mind and accept those who disagree with us.
We need the curiousity of Station7Cadet, the crust of all IACOJ, and the reasoning of Chief Reason. We have to be willing to change.

Good Luck to all of us.

[MalahatTwo7]

Stayback, your questions and points are very valid but the sad part is - there are no "hard straight" answers to them. I really hate saying that, but those are the words I have to work with.

I think Bones has the meat of it though:

"We can try to learn/remember/review standards and guidelines and we can try to apply what we have learned/remembered/reviewed to the best of our abilities. Not one of us is perfect, but we must believe in what we are doing."


And of course these next words are immortal:

"We need to have an open mind and accept those who disagree with us."

[firefighter_632]

So what happens to this guy when things go wrong. How will we, the fire service, react?

I pray that we don't ever have to find out! I think we lost enough firefighters that we should learn. But if God forbid it does happen then I hope that they are held accountable for their actions. But what we have learned from Mr. Baird is that they will just claim stupidity and and lay the blame on someone else for not seeing to safety. I hate to be a pessimist but it seems recently that is all people do. It is easier to blame the govt. when you screw up (or someone else does).

[enginecappy]

Wheel Chocks? You mean those things sometimes worn by Firefighters known as "Metro Style Helmets"? I figured they were NFPA approved for some reason other than firefighting.

Almost fogot....LEATHER FOREVER!

[FlyingKiwi]

Drkblam

Good point on the lights, but the crucial question would be "could the mutt see an effective APPROVED early warning device suitable to the size of the vehicle."

I guess that should be the determinant point on any issue.

Now a question for you all. Would an approved action under NFPA violate an EPA or OSHA regulation?

I mean S#$t happens at a scene, You were conforming to station SOP's and NFPA, but you get hammered under an obscure OSHA clause.

Geez, my head hurts trying to figure the ramifications under that sort of mess.

Ever noticed that when Murphy rears his head once, then all his relatives start showing up in increasingly faster numbers, until someone is over Murphyed.

If we went around conforming to every OSH wish, we wouldn't even climb in the bloody truck, because you might slip on the big step getting in and hurt yourself.

We had OSH try and say that involved structures should only be attacked externally as it was dangerous for a firefighter to enter a burning building.

That was laughed out of the window.

How would you go when you do a snap rescue and save a person, then get charged under OSH regs because you went in to a dangerous place.

Now if I turned around to a probie and said "Lie down in front of that wheel to stop the truck moving" and he did it, there is NO WAY I would ever enter a structure with that puppy in the future if he did it. His sole job in the future would be "hey CHOCKY do your job".

[martinm]

I think the bottom line is, that you owe it to yourselves, other firefighters around you, and yours and their familes and friends,NOT to allow this to occur again.

Fot it to happen once is what has been called a tragedy, to happen a second time could be viewed as not caring for the outcome of negligent acts. If the rules have to be changed to accomdate Lairdsville, then so be it, and those rules, when you are playing with fire and peoples lives, will have to be adhered to. Bear in mind that as firefighters we undertook to protect and help other people. What will it look like in your town or city if people don't believe you can do that because you can't even look after your own?

If it takes the fact that you are looking at the type of lights on trucks and wondering if they all conform to the same traffic law, so what?

I usually find that when the little things are left to slide, the big things soon follow.

Things like this will happen again and again and again if the people involved do NOTHING to prevent it.

[MalahatTwo7]

Kiwi, just thinking about your last paragraph:

Now if I turned around to a probie and said "Lie down in front of that wheel to stop the truck moving" and he did it, there is NO WAY I would ever enter a structure with that puppy in the future if he did it. His sole job in the future would be "hey CHOCKY do your job".

I'm not so sure that I can totally agree with you about not taking him inside with you. Point here is: he did what he was told to do. Now if he listens to what is told to him and follows those instructions, isn't that what you want? At least most of the time anyway.

Of course on the other hand, if he actually did lie down in front of a moving truck then there probably wouldn't be much cause to worry about him getting into a burning structure, cus I think his new name would be "TP" (that's short for TREAD PATTERN).

[FlyingKiwi]

Two-7

I see your point. and he would be usefull I suppose.

At the next locked door, we just slide him underneath to open it from the inside.

[MalahatTwo7]

Kiwi: I RLMFAO on that one! Almost put me in tears That would be a new description for "forced entry".

[Temptaker]

Originally posted by Stayback500FtThe department in rural New Mexico that can't afford NFPA approved equipment, do we make them close their doors? Do we wait until they have a LODD and hang their officers for not providing the proper protection?

I mentioned this in another post, but I'll do it again here. What happened to all the Federal funding the US Gov allocated to the fire service this year? If a small dept doesn't have the necessary resources to equip and train their fire fighters adequately, then the Gov, be it state, provincial, or federal should step in and provide the necessary funding. Isn't it enough that these small depts are generally manned by volunteers, who willingly put their life in danger, but we ask them to do it without adequate training and equipment. Something is seriously wrong there.

I understand that some might say that isn't fair to other parts of the fire service who don't get the funding. In those other parts of the fire service, salaries are paid, equipment is purchased etc, through municipal tax dollars. If there isn't enough funds to go around then there is nothing stopping any of those depts from applying for the same funding. Priority should go to depts that are running vehicles with questionable breaks, faulty pumps, outdated SCBA's and turnouts etc. It doens't make a rip bit of difference how much training you have if you can't get there cause your rigs crashes on the way, you can't pump water (maybe they want them to use buckets???), your SCBA fails, or your turnouts incinerate WHILE you are wearing them.

Please understand in Canada we are having a major problem trying to get WMD training, when to educate the entire fire service up here, would only cost $500,000 (Canadian... about $10 US) annually. Hopefully with the new terrorist threats that have been released by the FBI, our federal gov will take another look at it.

Bottom line is the fire service MUST educate the public. If the people in communities around the country start raising a stink about how inadequate equipment, training etc is then HOPEFULLY the gov will be more willing to part with funds. I don't believe it is enough just for fire fighters to stand up and say "This isn't good enough!" The powers that be don't listen as it is to what fire fighters say, if they did building codes would be different, and light weight truss construction would be a thing of the past. The 'voice' needs to be louder, and the only way that is going to happen is if the public is educated.

I'm afraid the only way the public will truly be educated is to make a spectical out of trajities that happen in the fire service. If the majority of people in the fire service aren't aware of incidents that happen outside of their own jurisdiction, how is the public supposed to know?

[StroutKristen]

I'm sorry....I don't mean to be a "smart ***" but doesn't "criminal" relate to the Penal Code not NFPA Standards? So........I guess.....not?