Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
Closed Thread
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 64
  1. #1
    Forum Member StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default Wheel chocks....I don't gotta show you no steeeenkeeeeng wheel chocks......

    O.K., so most of us agree what the incident at Lairdsville was a senseless tragedy. Now my question for you is...What happens if something senseless happens at your department? We are all human and mistakes like forgetting the occasional wheel chock happen sometimes. Are you covered? Does your errors and omissions insurance have enough bite to CYA? It's worth taking a look as my department just raised ours.

    Another question, how are we going to treat violations of NFPA standards in general after all this? Will we jump on every violation? Are there some things that are "still O.K." to ignore since no one has been hurt or killed yet?

    For example, NFPA lighting requirements on new fire service vehicles state upper level lights must be from the same manufacturer. So the lightbar is a Jetvector 2000 and the rear-facing lights are Blink-Blink Mach 1's, does this pose a criminal problem if the rig is involved in an accident?

    Before you attack...I agree that the incident at Lairdsville was criminal...but how many times have the rest of us been criminal too?
    Last edited by StayBack500FT; 05-28-2002 at 10:29 AM.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree


  2. #2
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,040

    Default

    Saw video of a darn nice Ford pumper buried head-first in a burning building in OH a couple years ago...transfer line problem or something, I think.

    Difference between that and Lairdsville: Brain fart vs. brain failure. But you bring up an excellent point that micromistakes kill just as effectively as macromistakes.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Default

    Things to make you say: Hmmmmm.... You do bring up a good point Stayback, and it is true we all make small and in most cases inconsequential errors, or omissions. To Err is Human, or so the "Experts" say. Unfortunately it is also true that even a very small mistake can get someone else hurt or killed.

    Certainly it is something to give consideration to.

    On a slightly different bend in thougth here Stayback: Just how Deep into the Ministry of Transportation are you?
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  4. #4
    Forum Member StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    Malahat -- By answering that question, I could see the following in my future....


    StayBack500FT
    No Longer Active
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  5. #5
    Forum Member MOTOWN88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    DETROIT
    Posts
    415

    Default

    YOU MEAN TO TELL ME ROOKIES DONT BELONG IN FRONT OF THE TIRES AS A WAY TO STOP IT FROM ROLLING AWAY???????
    I.A.C.O.J IRISH TATTOOED-HOOLIGAN

    DETROIT FIRE FIGHTER AND PROUD!

  6. #6
    Forum Member firefighter26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Sooke, B.C.
    Posts
    945

    Default

    If we used rookies/probies as tire chocks two things would happen:

    1. We would need more trucks
    2. We would need to find someone else to do traffic
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

  7. #7
    Forum Member StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    Originally posted by Malahat Two-7
    Unfortunately it is also true that even a very small mistake can get someone else hurt or killed.
    And if this is a minor infraction of NFPA guidelines is the responsible party guilty of Criminally Negligent Homicide?

    OR------------ Is there such a thing as a "minor infraction" anymore?



    And furthermore... The department in rural New Mexico that can't afford NFPA approved equipment, do we make them close their doors? Do we wait until they have a LODD and hang their officers for not providing the proper protection?


    Again, what Baird did was clearly wrong...but now we must draw some difficult lines in the sand here.
    Last edited by StayBack500FT; 05-28-2002 at 11:22 AM.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    U.S.A. and proud of it!
    Posts
    53

    Default

    Probies as wheel chocks!?! That explains the marks on my back! My guess is that even thought there has been alot said and done in this case, there will be little change. I have actually heard a fire chief say that it is not possible to follow all the NFPA regulations and they just follow as many as they can within the budget. Some states are not even NFPA states but are under OSHA or EPA regulations. What I think we will see is business as usual but officers will be more aware of safety as they dont want to end up in a jail cell.
    Firefighter/NREMT-B/Hazmat Tech
    To the Lord Jesus Christ: Thanks for providing a career where we can make a difference.

  9. #9
    Forum Member StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    Originally posted by firefighter_632
    My guess is that even thought there has been alot said and done in this case, there will be little change. I have actually heard a fire chief say that it is not possible to follow all the NFPA regulations and they just follow as many as they can within the budget.
    So what happens to this guy when things go wrong. How will we, the fire service, react? Will we look in the mirror and recall the times that we've bent rules or guidelines? Will we look the other way and listen to the Baird family scream for equal treatment?


    Please keep in mind...I believe Baird was guilty, but these are legitimate questions we will have to face at some period in the future.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  10. #10
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,655

    Default

    StayBack154.2 - In my opinion, all we can do is try our best. Not only in running safe drills, but in learning. We can try to learn/remember/review standards and guidelines and we can try to apply what we have learned/remembered/reviewed to the best of our abilities. Not one of us is perfect, but we must believe in what we are doing.
    In firefighting and all that is part of it, "winging it" just does not work. We need to plan, we need to critique, we need to be able to accept responsibility, we need to recognize our weaknesses, we need to accept help and we need to offer help. We need to have an open mind and accept those who disagree with us.
    We need the curiousity of Station7Cadet, the crust of all IACOJ, and the reasoning of Chief Reason. We have to be willing to change.

    Good Luck to all of us.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Default

    Stayback, your questions and points are very valid but the sad part is - there are no "hard straight" answers to them. I really hate saying that, but those are the words I have to work with.

    I think Bones has the meat of it though:

    "We can try to learn/remember/review standards and guidelines and we can try to apply what we have learned/remembered/reviewed to the best of our abilities. Not one of us is perfect, but we must believe in what we are doing."


    And of course these next words are immortal:

    "We need to have an open mind and accept those who disagree with us."
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    U.S.A. and proud of it!
    Posts
    53

    Default

    So what happens to this guy when things go wrong. How will we, the fire service, react?
    I pray that we don't ever have to find out! I think we lost enough firefighters that we should learn. But if God forbid it does happen then I hope that they are held accountable for their actions. But what we have learned from Mr. Baird is that they will just claim stupidity and and lay the blame on someone else for not seeing to safety. I hate to be a pessimist but it seems recently that is all people do. It is easier to blame the govt. when you screw up (or someone else does).
    Firefighter/NREMT-B/Hazmat Tech
    To the Lord Jesus Christ: Thanks for providing a career where we can make a difference.

  13. #13
    Temporarily/No Longer Active
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    223

    Talking Metro Wheel Chocks

    Wheel Chocks? You mean those things sometimes worn by Firefighters known as "Metro Style Helmets"? I figured they were NFPA approved for some reason other than firefighting.

    Almost fogot....LEATHER FOREVER!

  14. #14
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Drkblam

    Good point on the lights, but the crucial question would be "could the mutt see an effective APPROVED early warning device suitable to the size of the vehicle."

    I guess that should be the determinant point on any issue.

    Now a question for you all. Would an approved action under NFPA violate an EPA or OSHA regulation?

    I mean S#$t happens at a scene, You were conforming to station SOP's and NFPA, but you get hammered under an obscure OSHA clause.

    Geez, my head hurts trying to figure the ramifications under that sort of mess.

    Ever noticed that when Murphy rears his head once, then all his relatives start showing up in increasingly faster numbers, until someone is over Murphyed.

    If we went around conforming to every OSH wish, we wouldn't even climb in the bloody truck, because you might slip on the big step getting in and hurt yourself.

    We had OSH try and say that involved structures should only be attacked externally as it was dangerous for a firefighter to enter a burning building.

    That was laughed out of the window.

    How would you go when you do a snap rescue and save a person, then get charged under OSH regs because you went in to a dangerous place.

    Now if I turned around to a probie and said "Lie down in front of that wheel to stop the truck moving" and he did it, there is NO WAY I would ever enter a structure with that puppy in the future if he did it. His sole job in the future would be "hey CHOCKY do your job".

  15. #15
    Forum Member martinm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Northumberland, United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    I think the bottom line is, that you owe it to yourselves, other firefighters around you, and yours and their familes and friends,NOT to allow this to occur again.

    Fot it to happen once is what has been called a tragedy, to happen a second time could be viewed as not caring for the outcome of negligent acts. If the rules have to be changed to accomdate Lairdsville, then so be it, and those rules, when you are playing with fire and peoples lives, will have to be adhered to. Bear in mind that as firefighters we undertook to protect and help other people. What will it look like in your town or city if people don't believe you can do that because you can't even look after your own?

    If it takes the fact that you are looking at the type of lights on trucks and wondering if they all conform to the same traffic law, so what?

    I usually find that when the little things are left to slide, the big things soon follow.

    Things like this will happen again and again and again if the people involved do NOTHING to prevent it.
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Default

    Kiwi, just thinking about your last paragraph:

    Now if I turned around to a probie and said "Lie down in front of that wheel to stop the truck moving" and he did it, there is NO WAY I would ever enter a structure with that puppy in the future if he did it. His sole job in the future would be "hey CHOCKY do your job".

    I'm not so sure that I can totally agree with you about not taking him inside with you. Point here is: he did what he was told to do. Now if he listens to what is told to him and follows those instructions, isn't that what you want? At least most of the time anyway.

    Of course on the other hand, if he actually did lie down in front of a moving truck then there probably wouldn't be much cause to worry about him getting into a burning structure, cus I think his new name would be "TP" (that's short for TREAD PATTERN).
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  17. #17
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Two-7

    I see your point. and he would be usefull I suppose.

    At the next locked door, we just slide him underneath to open it from the inside.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Talking

    Kiwi: I RLMFAO on that one! Almost put me in tears That would be a new description for "forced entry".
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Temptaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    942

    Default

    Originally posted by Stayback500FtThe department in rural New Mexico that can't afford NFPA approved equipment, do we make them close their doors? Do we wait until they have a LODD and hang their officers for not providing the proper protection?
    I mentioned this in another post, but I'll do it again here. What happened to all the Federal funding the US Gov allocated to the fire service this year? If a small dept doesn't have the necessary resources to equip and train their fire fighters adequately, then the Gov, be it state, provincial, or federal should step in and provide the necessary funding. Isn't it enough that these small depts are generally manned by volunteers, who willingly put their life in danger, but we ask them to do it without adequate training and equipment. Something is seriously wrong there.

    I understand that some might say that isn't fair to other parts of the fire service who don't get the funding. In those other parts of the fire service, salaries are paid, equipment is purchased etc, through municipal tax dollars. If there isn't enough funds to go around then there is nothing stopping any of those depts from applying for the same funding. Priority should go to depts that are running vehicles with questionable breaks, faulty pumps, outdated SCBA's and turnouts etc. It doens't make a rip bit of difference how much training you have if you can't get there cause your rigs crashes on the way, you can't pump water (maybe they want them to use buckets???), your SCBA fails, or your turnouts incinerate WHILE you are wearing them.

    Please understand in Canada we are having a major problem trying to get WMD training, when to educate the entire fire service up here, would only cost $500,000 (Canadian... about $10 US) annually. Hopefully with the new terrorist threats that have been released by the FBI, our federal gov will take another look at it.

    Bottom line is the fire service MUST educate the public. If the people in communities around the country start raising a stink about how inadequate equipment, training etc is then HOPEFULLY the gov will be more willing to part with funds. I don't believe it is enough just for fire fighters to stand up and say "This isn't good enough!" The powers that be don't listen as it is to what fire fighters say, if they did building codes would be different, and light weight truss construction would be a thing of the past. The 'voice' needs to be louder, and the only way that is going to happen is if the public is educated.

    I'm afraid the only way the public will truly be educated is to make a spectical out of trajities that happen in the fire service. If the majority of people in the fire service aren't aware of incidents that happen outside of their own jurisdiction, how is the public supposed to know?

  20. #20
    StroutKristen
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy CRIMINAL????

    I'm sorry....I don't mean to be a "smart ***" but doesn't "criminal" relate to the Penal Code not NFPA Standards? So........I guess.....not?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts