1. #1
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    Question Dash Displacement for Inverted/Side-resting Vehicles

    Ok rescue guys, we recently discussed various ways of moving the dash/firewall/column off of a patient trapped in an upright vehicle. But what are you prepared to do if the vehicle ends up on its top or on it's side and the patient is trapped in the same manner? What's your plan A and B and if you've had this problem on an actual call what worked for you??
    After a few responses I'll post what's worked well for us...

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    Thumbs up

    Ok Bud you had mne thinking hard on this one. First I have to say that I haven't seen this problem in the field yet, and I don't recall doing a practice with this specific problem either. But here goes:

    I also need to let it be known that I had to raid my 2yr olds dinky cars for a couple different specimens for visual referencing. AND YES I MADE ALL THE APPROPRIATE putt putt eeerrrrrrrr sccccrrrrreeeeeecccchhhh noises while I was at it.

    Ok here is what I came up with. My final choice for a model vehicle is a 2002 Buick Rendezvous SUV. 4 door with a hatch back, 1/24 scale. I chose this cuz the doors all open up.

    Here is my inital plan:

    Roll up on scene, 360 visual first, see a vehicle upside down, front end damage, driver trapped by being upside down and by dash from initial impact. I figure (after cribbing the hell out of it) that we would remove the drivers door and rear pax door completely (for complete access), and then make a relief cut in the running board just forward of the "B" post and another just behind the "A" post and a final cut in the rear part of the wheel well. My thought is that you could use 4x4 cribbing as a base and build up from the ground to a point just behind the "A" post and with the ram roll the floor pan of the vehicle enough to extract your patient. Cutting the rim off the streeing wheel would be necessary as well.

    The only problem I can see from using a model is that the cribbing would have to be built up partially inside the car, so as to prevent the ram from lifting the whole vehicle off the ground, and thereby negating the entire operation.

    Of course looking at it from a different perspective, you could still push the dash as you would if the car was on its wheels, except you would be pushing the dash down instead of "UP". But again I think you would run risk of lifting the whole vehicle in doing so. I still haven't quite figured that part out and how to prevent the whole car from moving.

    This entire operation as described is while using the Jaws unit. A slight variation could be to use a chop saw to cut out an entire section of the floor pan, but this would cause a lot of stress to your patient and there is the risk of fire from leaking vital fluids in the vehicle itself.

    If the model car I am using as a guide is accurate, the undercarriage on the drivers side had a solid frame rail, and inside that is a portion of the exhaust system, and level with the end of the steering assembly in the rear, is the cross member for the transmission. The fuel tank appears to be mounted just ahead of the rear wheels on the passenger side and extends between the drive line and the outer edge of the floor pan to the "B" post. This vehicle type also appears to have a "V" type engine, with split exhaust from the engine to the "B" post region where it connects into a single tail pipe.
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    The pix below sho an MVA we were responded to a little while ago. In this case, the driver was not pinned by the dash but it certainly raised a few questions to us, as per your own discussions.

    If we had to displace the dash, the first thing to go would be the steering wheel to gives us a fair bit of room. The next thing to do, we beleive, would be to place a ram between what would normally be the base of the B pillar, on an angle to the middle of the A pillar. (As you would, to do a normal dash roll)

    Using the shears, do a releif cut on the floor pan near the A pillar, on each side of the car.

    By extending the ram in this position, with the relief cut, it would allow the whole front end to pivot up.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Luke

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    This is a view of the passenger side of the vehicle after it was put the right way up by the tow comopany.

    OW! Lucky there was no passenger!
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    Luke

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    Lutan, you never cease to amaze me with your photo file. I also find it continually interesting how very much "uncar like" a vehicle can look once it is put back on its wheels after rolling over a few times.

    I'm still working on this problem, I think there is a better or more effective way to complete the job, just haven't quite figured it out yet. I am also going to suggest it for an extrication practice to see what comes out. I will also try to remember to get pictures taken too.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

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    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

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    Just looking at Lutan's first pic again, I had a second thought. Using the ram and extention (it would have to be a long one), place a piece of 4x4 or 6x6 on each side of the door opening, inside the frame at the A and B posts, make two relief cuts in the rocker panel, one in the middle and one near the A post.

    Use the ram to spread the opening between the A and B posts (with the ram near the "top" of the door opening as close to the rocker panel as possible. This might allow for the interior of the vehicle to be opened up enough to allow for PT removal.

    Without trying it in practice, I am not totally convinced that it would work the way the theory suggests that it might.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    Malahat, here's a photo of what we came up with, I think it goes along with what you describe. My thinking is with the patient pinned between the dash and the floor, if you can't move the dash then move the floor off of his limbs. Also the option of accessing the steering column from the side and cutting it low(at the firewall) for removal.
    Door off and wheel cut as you guys have stated. We cut into the A pillar and flapped a section of it forward to get better access to where the feet would possibly be, then cut into to rocker just ahead of where the front seat is bolted to the undercarriage.After making another cut in the rocker as far forward as possible, we sawzalled our way towards the midline of the car and then rammed this flap up and off our patient.
    Lutan, hadn't thought about your method, seems a lot of negative movement possible. What about lifting the front end of the vehicle off the ground first, cribbing it tight and then pushing the dash like you described. Gonna try this next training opportunity.
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    Awesome photo Kbud, you did with one picture what it took me a thousand words to say. That is exactly the image I had in my head when I first answered the post! Great Shot
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    We did this exercise as practice last night (6 June). Once the film is developed, I will post as much of what went on as possible. On a quick overview, the operation went well.

    We used a Mazda B2000 pick up truck. The short and the furious of it was that the physical condition of the vehicle in question will play a very big part in this operation. We had a lot of rust in the front part of the front wheel well that was moving into the front of the cabin floor pan. This caused us some trouble because the body integrity was already compromized in ways that were not "helpful" to us. It was also a fairly long process as well.

    More to follow when I get the photos developed and scannded in.
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    More food for thought- - -

    Moving the structure of the vehicle as is being discussed is one good strategy for this scenario. But what if that could not be accomplished?

    A second overall strategy would be... if you can't move it, remove it. Consider the individual interior components of the vehicle that would be or could be contacting and trapping your patient. Removal of an individual item inside this roof-resting vehicle could include;
    removal of a door,
    cutting away a seatback,
    removal of the entire bucket seat,
    cutting off a brake or clutch pedal,
    cutting away the stick shifter,
    removing not just the steering wheel but the entire column flush with the dashboard, (great assignment for a recip saw)
    removal of the windshield, (not easy on a rollover)
    removal of the section of the A-pillar from the dash to the roofline,
    removal of the A-pillar from the dash to the rocker panel,
    removal of a section of the floorpan, and
    removal of a section of the rocker.

    To practice for this scenario, place a vehicle on its roof and require that each and every one of these objects be systematically removed by the crew. There will be many interesting challenges to the crew as they work. For one thing, everything is upside down and backwards. The crew also has limited working space and a vehicle that wants to become unstable all the time.

    Your training experiences will show that both moving the dash/firewall structure as discussed in the previous posts as well as removing individual exterior and interior items are both acceptable overall approaches to this unique scenario. From your experiences in training, develop your department's Plan A and Plan B for the real-world.

    Be Safe!
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    www.universityofextrication.com

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    Further to my last post, we removed the passenger door completely. There was a relief cut made at 90* to the door frame at both the A and B posts. We also removed part of the main frame rail, transmission cross memeber and exhaust pipe, using the chop saw (well we attempted to). We found that the recip worked far better and faster. The disc on the chop saw was not deep enough to go through the frame rails, it came up about 1/2" short.

    Without the removal of the frame rail and cross member, we would not have been able to either gain access or have been able to move much in the way of metal. While using the chop saw, the sparks that fly around, we actually started a small fire in the engine compartment. Our resident fire bug put it out using the squirt bottle for the recip saw of all things! Between the sparks and the noise/vibration that the saw made, it was found to be a better choice to use the recip; quieter, less vibration to the pt(s) and in the end more effective.

    This was a fun one to work on, and I am going to get the Training Officer to plan another one, using a different vehicle - PRACTICE MAKES FOR THE BEST PRE-PREPARATION IN THE REAL WORLD
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

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    Last year we had a mva a 89 sunfire hit a pole . It wrap around the
    pole at the top of windshield and the front of the car .The car was on it's side.The patient was trapped between the steering wheel and the door her legs was cought under the dash.
    We stabilize then done a roof flap.We cut the steering ring and then we cut the floor at the back of the doors from one side to the other side .We didn't cut all the way through we didn't want the car to fall in two. Then we cut from that cut to the firewall then we took the 32" spreader and spread the floor we also had to take the driver seat out the floor.
    Two weeks before we had a training on a upside car.We tried to do a dash lift we were not happy with the results.After this mva we found all we have to do is to remove the vehicle from the patient .thanks to the reciprocating saw the extrication wae a success .

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    Default Way out of left field!

    We recently were mucking around with our gear and set up a car on its roof on wrapped chains around the font end and also the rear. We then set up the spreaders between them just like we would for a steering wheel pull.

    Surprising results! We nearly had the front wheels touching the rear wheel after 15 minutes of this!

    Never tried it with a casulty, but it certainly pulled the dash away...
    Luke

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    Wow Lutan, hope you have a picture of that?? Pretty please...

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    Thumbs down Bummer Dude!

    Sorry dude!

    Before I had a digital camera surgically attached to my hand!

    Have I ever told you where I've had the fax machine implanted?


    Forgot to mention- remove the drive shaft before attempting....

    It may also fold easier if you cut the floor pan on each side of the car just in front of the B pillar....
    Luke

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    Ok, my original question also included a side-resting vehicle with the patient trapped by the dash. Here's my first choice, although it's tool specific - pulling the column with the Column-master tool. It's set up as you would for an upright vehicle with the addition of a ratchet strap running from the yellow base up and over to the undercarriage to support the tool(during setup). On this picture, we got around 10 inches of column/dash movement before running out of take-up on the come-along.
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    Default Plan B , same problem

    If we need more movement than the Column-master gives us, or it happens to be the front seat passenger trapped, another option is to spread/ram from the center console area - attempting to crush the dash material until our tool contacts the support bar that the dash is mounted to in some vehicles.
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    Default Plan C

    Here's another option for when access to the roof is blocked and you're unable to remove it. The CM tool would work fine, but we didn't have one when this picture was taken and opted to use a Hi-lift jack. We wrapped the column and ran the chain tight around the front end and anchored it to the undercarriage. The long 4x4 was placed across the hood to prevent it from from buckling and the front of the jack supported with a crib box the keep it from noseing into the ground. As the jack lifted the length of chain the column moved up off the patient. (The traffic barricades are our simulated Jersey barriers). We removed the patient out the rear of the vehicle (trunk and rear seatbacks removed).
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    Exclamation "Plan B" Photo Suggestion

    With the photo of the spreaders in place under the dash in Plan B, have a good look under there next time you do that technique or a dash roll with a ram.

    Most dashboards are anchored to the tunnel there by a metal bracket. Get your shears in there and cut the bracket and watch the difference it makes to the lift or roll of the dash!

    It also rolls the whole dash more completely instead of just one side of it....
    Luke

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    Exclamation "Plan C" Concerns

    Interesting use of the high lift jack in Plan C.

    I generally dislike the high lift jack as there are significant issues with stability of it when being used.

    My concern with your photo Kbud, is that the operator doesn't really have a "safe" place to be when operating.

    If the jack is not level, when tensioned it could flip up or down, dependant on the way it is leaning.

    If for some reason the chain failed or the anchor under the car or the steering wheel failed- where does the chain go? Back into the operator.

    If you put the car on its wheels and did a steering wheel pull, if it were to fail, the chains would go up. The operator is back away from the line of fire....

    If anyone does this technique, i'm not doubting that it would work- BUT BE SAFE! Think it out and don't rush it.
    Luke

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    Lightbulb Just another school of thought....

    Most of the posts on this subject so far have been using either the "old" method of a dash roll in some modified way. There is another method that just might work, but it would take some practice on the training level to perfect it.

    Try the dash lift technique.

    Using the cutters, cut 2 horizontal cuts a the base of the A-pillar, about 4 inches apart, near the intersection with the rocker panel and peel this flap back out of the way. This is the part of the door frame that normally runs up the front edge of the door. Cut a relief cut in the front fender brace. Make sure you crib all this up prior to any cuts being made. Place the tips of the spreaders in the notch you made at the base of the door frame. Open the spreaders slowly until the floor is displaced from the area to free the indivudual. I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but we have a class this weekend and I am going to try it if we have time. If not, I will try it soon! It should work in theory. If I get to try it, I will get some pics and post them here so you can see what the result is. Hopefully, it will work!

    This technique should work on either an inverted or side resting vehicle, but the stabilization will be crucial to success.

    Good Luck and be safe!
    Benjamin Lunsford
    Fire & Rescue Instructor
    Captain, Training & Rescue
    Upper Hominy Fire Rescue
    Candler, NC
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    Hi Luke,

    The Lift Jack is like any of our tools; dangerous in untrained hands. It is a miracle tool in trained hands.

    Assuming a "pullable" wheel, I have pulled steering wheels many times as KBUD is showing. As the Jack tensions the chain, the chain also stabilizes the Jack. To get the Jack to tip sideways, you would literally have to "stretch" the chain, since to tip over the Jack will also have to rise as it rocks up on it's base (look at the Jack Baseplate). Try it, and you will see.

    We specify 3/8 grade 70 chain as our "Rescue" chain, and the chain KBUD is using looks about the same. This chain has a 6,600 Lb. working load with a test load in excess of 25,000 Lbs. The Hi-Lift and other chinese-made Jacks have a working load of 4,660 Lbs with a 7,000 Lb. test load (Canadian made Jack-All and Maasdam Jacks are slightly higher at 8,000). This is well within tolerance for the chain. As you know, chain has almost no Potential Energy storage capability. It therefore has little Kinetic response if suddenly released. In simpler terms, chain doesn't snap back much. Even if the chain were to snap (extremely unlikely given the data above), an operator operating this Jack would probably be OK.

    Besides, he's protected by that fine looking stabilizing Strut!

    Tim
    www.rescue42.com

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    Hey Benford, the way you desscribe the dash lift is how we've always done it.

    If the vehcile is resting in its side though, it won't work that well. You need to brace the floorpan back to something solid. If the vehicle is on its wheels, you can throw a chock under it and the spreading force is put back through this to he road- on it side, you can't brace it.

    Does that make sense? I know what I mean!
    Luke

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    Luke,
    You got a good point there. But it seems to me if you push the floorboard away from the rest of the dash area, you have essentially "inverted" the dash lift process and successfully removed the entrapment. I think I might try playing with this a little more and see how it works. Now you got me thinking, that can be dangerous!

    Be safe and keep us posted as to what you can figure out!

    Benjamin Lunsford
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    Upper Hominy Fire Rescue
    Candler, NC
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    Hello Benford, we had discussed various ways of dash displacement earlier for upright vehicles, here's the thread if you haven't seen it: http://www.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...threadid=37324
    However, if the vehicle is on its top or side, the dash lift may not be an option (for example: car resting on its drivers side, driver pinned by the dash), hence this thread.
    Check the first page of this thread for a picture showing the floorboard being pushed away from the dash like you mentioned...

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