1. #1
    Sr. Information Officer
    NJFFSA16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    25 NW of the GW
    Posts
    8,434

    Default Only the Strong Survive

    The line forms here. Comments pro and con welcome. My personal belief is that the new test accurately reflects what firefighters may face.

    Firefighters give mixed reaction to new physical test

    JACKSON, Miss. (AP) - A new physical test required for
    firefighter candidates at Mississippi's five training academies is
    drawing mixed reviews from the rank and file.
    Opponents said the new test hurts women trying to break into the
    male-dominated profession. Supporters said it only weeds out those
    who can't handle the rigors of the job.
    The Mississippi Fire Personnel Minimum Standards and
    Certification Board made the Candidate Physical Ability Test
    mandatory Jan. 1.
    The test requires candidates wearing a 50-pound vest to meet a
    number of physical challenges. They include dragging a 165-pound
    dummy, using a 10-pound sledge hammer to make a forced entry,
    dragging fire hoses, carrying two heavy-duty saws and crawling
    through a maze.
    The old test required recruits to run 1.5 miles, climb through
    an opening six feet off the ground, do 35 sit-ups and walk 75 feet
    with a set of 125-pound barbells.
    So far, three women have taken the new test at the State Fire
    Academy in Rankin County, and all three have failed, said Bill
    Warren, the academy's executive director.
    Of 154 men who took the test at the academy, 82 of them, or 53
    percent, passed, Warren said.
    "It appears at this time to have an adverse impact on females
    that want to be firefighters," said Jackson Fire Department Chief
    Raymond McNulty, who leads a department of close to 400
    firefighters, including 23 women.
    McNulty said he doubts many veteran male firefighters could pass
    the new test.
    "They need to go back and take a closer look at this," McNulty
    said. "In the end, I think that's what's going to happen. In the
    next year or two, there will be a change."
    Vicksburg Fire Department Deputy Chief Rose Shaifer said she
    doesn't think the test is unfair to women.
    "This is a demanding profession," said Shaifer, who joined the
    Vicksburg Fire Department in 1980. "You have to be able to prove
    to people you can handle this, you can carry your load. You have to
    be a tough person. You have to prove to people you can be depended
    on in any situation."
    Ridgeland Fire Department Deputy Chief Kendall Golden, who is
    vice president at-large of the Mississippi Firefighters
    Association, said the new test will result in better firefighters.
    "This job discriminates against all of us," Golden said.
    "This is not an easy job. If you can do it, you can do it."
    Carmen Thompson, a Jackson firefighter for nine years, said the
    test is unfair because it requires recruits to perform individually
    duties a firefighter wouldn't be doing alone at a fire scene.
    "We work together," Thompson said.
    Of the approximately 270,000 firefighters in the United States,
    about 6,000 are women, national statistics show.
    Waveland Fire Chief David Garcia, president of the Mississippi
    Firefighters Association, agrees the new test is a better gauge for
    measuring the ability of firefighter recruits.
    "What does running a mile-and-half have to do with being a
    firefighter?" Garcia asked. "Someone might be able to run a
    mile-and-a-half but not be a good firefighter."

    (Copyright 2002 by The Associated Press
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    No. Providence R.I. : Land of the "How ya doins"
    Posts
    990

    Default

    This test is pertinent to the job. It has some of the components one would do if they were a firefighter. If you can't pass then you aren't physically capable of being a firefighter.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Well, the old test certainly did not reflect reality. I'm still composing my thoughts on the new test, mainly because I'm not sure I could pass it right now based on what was in the report. Yeah, I can drag a 165 pound dummy, but how far and how fast? Of course, if I were in the process of applying for a career position and I knew what the test required, I would d**n sure get off my butt and do some PT.

    When we're in our gear, you can't tell the boys from the girls, and personally I don't care what your sex, race, or gender preference is as long as you can back me up when I need it.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Thumbs up thumbs up for the CPAT

    The test requires candidates wearing a 50-pound vest to meet a
    number of physical challenges. They include dragging a 165-pound
    dummy, using a 10-pound sledge hammer to make a forced entry,
    dragging fire hoses, carrying two heavy-duty saws and crawling
    through a maze.


    NEWS FLASH! As dey would say in Brooklyn, NY...dat's da job!


    The CPAT is a more accurate representation of what "the job" entails. If you really wanted to become a firefighter, wouldn't you get your rear in gear and start a workout program to make sure that you would pass?

    3 female candidates failed the CPAT....so did 72 male candidates.

    If someone (male or female) who wants the job sits around all day watching crap like Jerry Springer, stuffing their faces with junk food and doesn't get out to get any exercise...why should the fitness standards be lowered for them? Diversity? Quotas?

    Corporate America hires the best and the brightest...and the fire service should be too!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    This test is totally unfair and should be changed.

    165 lb. dummy? No one has ever had to be rescued from a bldg. who weighed more than 125 lbs.

    50 lb. weight vest? If I only wear a coat and 3/4 boots, and no SCBA, my gear will weigh in at way less than 50 lbs.!

    10 lb. sledge? No one has ever needed more than an 8 lb. sledge, right?

    And what do you need two saws for? One for each hand? Give me a break! The test should only include carrying one saw.

    What's up with the maze thing, too? Has anyone ever been in a house where the resident had a maze set up? Ridiculous.

    Finally, this Thompson has a good point ... because after all, no one, in the history of the fire service, has ever had to do anything by themself. What, do they want to run one-man engines?

    Absolutely ridiculous, it must be changed.

    Stay Safe
    Last edited by PAVolunteer; 06-06-2002 at 10:56 AM.

  6. #6
    Sr. Information Officer
    NJFFSA16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    25 NW of the GW
    Posts
    8,434

    Wink Ridiculous?

    Originally posted by PA Volunteer
    This test is totally unfair and should be changed.
    Absolutely ridiculous, it must be changed.
    I've read your remarks four times and I'm still trying to decide....if your post is serious, or tongue in cheek?

    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  7. #7
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Conshohocken, PA
    Posts
    391

    Default Testing

    The purpose of any test is to determine who is the best qualified for the positions being applied for. Just like any other test, some pass and some fail. Those who are better prepared for the test will do better than those who didn't prepare or didn't prepare well enough. I agree with Gonzo. If corporate america can hire the best and brightest, then we need to do the same. Much more is at stake in the fire service than corporate america. Have a bad day selling oranges, and you don't make your quota. Have a bad day as a firefighter and somebody gets hurt.

    PA Volunteer;
    As Chief Brennan likes to say, "we ain't going to the same fires". While the criteria for pass/fail isn't listed, carrying two saws is a common task around here. Dragging hose, swinging a ten (10) pound sledge, and dragging a 165 lb unconcious person is indeed something while not common, a necessity. As compared to the past test, this test seems more valid and in line with the job responsibilities and tasks.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Okay, I guess my 125 lb. analogy, the statement that no Fireman has ever had to do anything alone, the no SCBA statement, and the maze statement didn't make it obvious enough.

    When taking all of the points together, it is meant to exaggerate the point that all of the segments of the test are real life examples and should be included in FF exam everywhere in the world.

    So, no the test is NOT ridiculous, and it should NOT be changed.

    Stay Safe

  9. #9
    Truckie
    SPFDRum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    2,516

    Default

    Carmen Thompson, a Jackson firefighter for nine years, said the test is unfair because it requires recruits to perform individually duties a firefighter wouldn't be doing alone at a fire scene.
    I need to get a job with this utopian fire department: never running short on engine or truck companies, no delays in a full assignment arriving, no dispatch errors sending a single unit to investigate "smoke in the area" and finding a fully involved garage.

    But most of us seem to work in the real world and all isn't perfect. I hope this distorted view of the job doesn't get anyone hurt or killed.

    The CPAT is an excellent tool to test the physical attributes of canidates. Not only is is fairly accurate of the job tasks, it comes with handouts describing the entire test AND excercises designed to aid in helping a canidate pass. If the individual doesn't have the desire to practice, do we really need them in the house?
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  10. #10
    Sr. Information Officer
    NJFFSA16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    25 NW of the GW
    Posts
    8,434

    Default

    Originally posted by PA Volunteer
    So, no the test is NOT ridiculous, and it should NOT be changed.
    I admit it...you had me going there. I suspected you were foolin' with us....but I've come to realize that you never know what to expect on these forums!

    I've read some bizarre posts from firefighters...
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  11. #11
    StroutKristen
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up IT'S GOT MY VOTE!

    This test is pertinent to the job. It has some of the components one would do if they were a firefighter. If you can't pass then you aren't physically capable of being a firefighter.
    The test here consists of eleven events:

    Dry Hose Drag
    Charged Hose Drag (through a confined tunnel)
    Ladder Raise
    Roof Walk
    Attic Crawl
    Dummy Drag
    Ladder Carry
    Carrying 50lb hose to fourth floor
    Search and Rescue
    Go back down
    Go to third floor with SCBA and hoist 200 (?) feet of hose

    I say.....BRING IT ON!!!

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Captain Gonzo,

    I agree with your post. Of course, what frosts the PC people was that the failure rate for females in this particular setting was 100% while the failure rate for the guys was "only" 53%. Seems like everyone should have worked on their PT a bit harder. The test is a lot like the Combat Challenge, from what I know about it. As a volunteer, we didn't have to pass a physical to get in the company, but when I took FF1 we spent eight hours on practical days working in full gear with old MSA steel bottle packs. I lost about 10 lbs. and was probably in the best shape I was ever in after that class was finished. Unfortunately, in the ensuing -- years I got the 10 lbs back and added a few more.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  13. #13
    Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Work,USA
    Posts
    39

    Thumbs up Yes, CPAT is very realistic

    As a recent(passing) participant of the CPAT. I say it is very realistic and fair. The test has a total time of 10:20. It is a pass or fail grade. The majority of the people who failed during the test failed on the first event(3:20 on the stair climber with 75lbs. on your body). They either fell off or just plain gave up. The department is supposed to give you eight weeks preparation time to get ready for it and I personnally think if you work out hard enough and have in the past you can pass this test. I personally worked out very hard and I think that it paid off. Twice a week I walked on the stair climber holding two 25lb. dumbells for a minimum of 5 min. This is on top of working out four times a week for an hour and a half(mostly cardio). If you ever get the chance to take the test or even witness it I think you will have alot of respect for the people who have completed it.

    Just my two cents worth.

    FAIR is FAIR
    Last edited by SHCoTrk531; 06-06-2002 at 01:51 PM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Conshohocken, PA
    Posts
    391

    Default Sorry

    Sorry PA,
    Just couldn't see that tounge in your cheek.

  15. #15
    StroutKristen
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy TOO BAD SHE DIED

    "I want to do it because I want to do it. Women must try to do things as men have tried. When they fail, their failure must be but a challenge to others." Amelia Earhart

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    SBFire333's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Beloit, WI.
    Posts
    29

    Thumbs up

    If you cant take the heat get the **ck out of the kitchen. I applaud this test 110%. I dont want some pansy ***** next to me in some house fire that cant pull me out if they needed too. This is a physical job......and it is time people need to start realizing it...this is not some 9-5 desk jocky job where the heaviest thing you lift all day is your butt out of the chair to use the can. If you cant pass the test well guess what you dont belong there.
    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of the organization I belong to.

  17. #17
    Disillusioned Subscriber
    Steamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    The occupational therapy department of our local health care system developed a pretty good test after years of not having one at all . A couple of years ago they had a young lady that had failed say that the test was prejudiced, and she planned to challenge it. He calmly told her that he totally agreed with her. "It's prejudiced against people who can't do the job." That was the last thing we heard from her. By the way, we have had several women pass and been hired since that time with virtually no changes in the test. They just wanted the job, and worked their rear ends off to pass this test.
    Steve Gallagher
    IACOJ BOT
    ----------------------------
    "I don't apologize for anything. When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

  18. #18
    StroutKristen
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking Oh Steamer!!!!

    AMEN!!!

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Temptaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    942

    Default

    I totally agree with this test. In fact it is quite similar to the one we have here. I have to agree that it is prejudice too against those that can't do the job Frankly I wouldn't have it any other way.

  20. #20
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    28

    Default

    i think that the test is a very good one . And as for pafirefighter saying on page 1 what do you mean when you said nobody rescues anybody over 125 lbs from a building if thats true i would not like to live in your fire dist. are you being silly by saying if you only wore a jacket and 3/4 boots with no pack it would be under 50 ...yes correct it would be under 50lbs but i wouldnt recomend you going in a fire with no scba.....are you sure your a fireman/women

  21. #21
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    NZ Fire Service is currently running applications for FF.

    Here is a link to the PDF file they present on line as a suggested 6 week training schedule to get people ready to pass the physical.

    http://www.fire.org.nz/recruit/train...ng_program.pdf

    Heres the link to the Pre_Entry Physical Test.

    http://www.fire.org.nz/recruit/train...o_pack/ppt.htm

    Now the basic rule of this game is simple.

    You pass the goddamn test and you MIGHT get in. You don't pass the test, then yopur A&* is grass, goodbye.

    What could be fairer than that.

    Would I want a firefighter going in with me who was only prepare to lift 125 pounds. Run up 2 flights of stairs and stop. Only drag the hose for 50 feet. Knock down doors that are made of cardboard only.

    NO.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  22. #22
    StroutKristen
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb NEW ZEALAND FIRE SERVICE PHYSICAL PRE-ENTRY TEST PTP

    Flying Kiwi,
    Thank you! Pushing the car idea is great!
    Are you an instructor with this? I've been hearing a lot of different opinions on how I'm working out. Some say I'm doing too much and some say I'm doing to little. Can I ask you for your advice and the advice of others?
    In the New Zealand Program Session Descriptions it lists suggestions for weight training. Right now, this is my routine, each exercise is 4 sets of 10 reps.
    1. Undergrip chin-ups
    2. Bent over flye
    3. Over head flye
    4. Leg lift
    5. Leg curl
    6. Seated lateral pull
    7. Raised lateral pull
    8. Bench Press (this one is four sets of 8)
    9. Hip sled (this one is 4 sets of 20 at 280lbs)
    10. Military Press
    11. Incline Bench (this one is 3 sets of 15)
    I do this 2xweek
    Then I run 4.5 miles an hour for 20-30 minutes every other day, 60 push-ups everyday, and 100 crunches everyday. Thank you for your time I appreciate it.

  23. #23
    Disillusioned Subscriber
    Steamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    Posted by nyfirefighter55:
    And as for pafirefighter saying on page 1 what do you mean .....are you sure your a fireman/women
    It was a "tongue in cheek" response. You must have missed the second post.

    Posted by PA Volunteer:
    Okay, I guess my 125 lb. analogy, the statement that no Fireman has ever had to do anything alone, the no SCBA statement, and the maze statement didn't make it obvious enough.

    When taking all of the points together, it is meant to exaggerate the point that all of the segments of the test are real life examples and should be included in FF exam everywhere in the world.

    So, no the test is NOT ridiculous, and it should NOT be changed.

    Stay Safe
    Last edited by Steamer; 06-06-2002 at 05:16 PM.
    Steve Gallagher
    IACOJ BOT
    ----------------------------
    "I don't apologize for anything. When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Thanks Steamer.

    Stay Safe

  25. #25
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Steamer.

    Do we need to add for the final test.

    "Consume 1 liter of a certain dark liquid within 30 seconds"
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register