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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33
    The 1% of the time you are even in the collapse zone your breakin a s**t load of laws....
    I hear this often. Can anyone tell me where I can find these laws so I can have them to refer to? Can you tell me the chapter in the Code of Federal Regulations where they are printed?

    Thanks


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    I quoted YOUR post where you said that you weren't allowed within 15-20 feet of a house.That doesn't sound much like a grass fire to me.
    Where did I say that Slick?

  3. #43
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    *Sniff Sniff* I smell smoke... anybody else?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief310
    I hear this often. Can anyone tell me where I can find these laws so I can have them to refer to? Can you tell me the chapter in the Code of Federal Regulations where they are printed?

    Thanks
    #1 You will have to look up the Child Labor Laws in your state.

    #2 Being in the "collapes zone" is dangerous. Look that one up in the NFPA Codes.

    #3 I know that in the state of Texas, the CLL states that no child will be placed in any danger on the job.

    #4 Firefighting is a job whether you are paid or not.
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

  5. #45
    Forum Member THEFIRENUT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson
    I quoted YOUR post where you said that you weren't allowed within 15-20 feet of a house.

    I believe that was tfexplorer923 that said that.
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

  6. #46
    Forum Member ndvfdff33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPFire1618
    *Sniff Sniff* I smell smoke... anybody else?
    LOL..Thats funny right there I dont care who yah are
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEFIRENUT
    #1 You will have to look up the Child Labor Laws in your state.

    #2 Being in the "collapes zone" is dangerous. Look that one up in the NFPA Codes.

    #3 I know that in the state of Texas, the CLL states that no child will be placed in any danger on the job.

    #4 Firefighting is a job whether you are paid or not.
    I checked the child labor laws in my state and found no reference to firefighting at all. There were quite a few occupations and activities listed as prohibited, but not firefighting or emergency medicine.

    I checked NFPA 1500 and found no reference to a collapse zone. According to section 8.1.7, it's up to the incident commander to "control the position and function of all members operating at the scene and to ensure that safety requirements are satisfied." If a "collapse zone" is defined somewhere else in NFPA, then I missed it. If you could tell me where to find it, I would be grateful.

    I've heard that 1 1/2 X the height of the building = collapse zone before, but I believe it's more a rule of thumb than a law or standard. It certainly makes sense, but I think it must be applied with a wee bit of common sense. If a fire is in the initial stages, then the structure will be in no danger of collapse and therefore the 1 1/2 rule might not apply. If the same structure is fully envolved, then of course it's a different story. The bottom line is that it's up to the IC to make that call.

    I'm not in Texas, but I'm wondering what their definition of ANY danger is. It seems to me that it is virtually impossible to completely eliminate all risk from any job or activity. A kid delivering newspapers on his bicycle could get hit by a car, so even that job is not without risk.

    Please don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that youth program members should be allowed to conduct interior fire attacks. I don't think that's a good idea at all. I'm simply suggesting that before we start criticizing another fire department and accusing them of breaking laws, we better be sure of our facts first and be ready to back them up with specific citations.
    Last edited by Chief310; 05-05-2006 at 05:30 PM.

  8. #48
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    If your Explorer Post is officially chartered throught the Boy Scouts, Learning for life than your charter also specifies what an explorer can and can not do. This is due to Learning for Life Insurance. If your organization does not charter through them, than they ought to look into it as they offer clear guidelines as to what activities are allowed, and they offer liability insurance as well. If you are not chartered through the BSA than I would assume your local labor laws should specify what a junior firefighter can or can not do. There is also the thought process that Exploring/Junior FireFighters are there to learn, and observe, they should not be put in a position where they are in danger for a ton of reasons, one of which is these are "kids" and they are excited, and will not tell an officer, or senior firefighter that they should not/do not want to do something because they feel it is dangerous. I have said it before, and I will say it again, if a department NEEDS to put explorers in these situations due to "staffing" than they need to look at other options, they should not be relying on and counting explorers/juniors into their response matrix.

  9. #49
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    Here in my vermont town we are allowed to responde to all calls, execpt when we are in school, we can basically do everything on the fire ground execpt enter a burning building, during training if the cheif oks it we are allowed to do everything the firefighters do.

  10. #50
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    Talking We are able...

    to respond to any call before during or after school hours 24 hrs. a day 7 days a week but, we are volunteer
    THE ONLY STUPID QUESTION ASKED IS THE ONE NOT ASKED!!!!!

  11. #51
    Forum Member ndvfdff33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejarman
    but, we are volunteer
    So are the vast majority of your fellow mates on this site...I don't think theres too many full time FD's with these programs anyways
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  12. #52
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief310
    I hear this often. Can anyone tell me where I can find these laws so I can have them to refer to? Can you tell me the chapter in the Code of Federal Regulations where they are printed?

    Thanks
    you won't find them, because they aren't a federeal law. They are state law (check your constitution, Article 10 if I'm not mistaken), and as such, you need to check with your state's department of labor.

    This is what I found using a quick google search. if you don't find your state, contact the dept of Labor (the state one, not the federal one), and ask them. she should be able to show you exactly what you are looking for, or tell you if it doesn't exist.

    and just because you are allowed to do something on your department, doesn't mean you are legally able to do it or it is safe for you to be doing.

    in the state of maine:
    D. Junior Firefighters

    Minors who are under 16 MAY:

    * Perform nonhazardous duties at the fire station;
    * Ride in the cab of the fire apparatus responding to an emergency scene;
    * Attend training sessions. However, if the training is deemed hazardous, an instructor shall supervise the minor;
    * Participate in nonhazardous duties only within the rehabilitation area at the scene of an actual emergency.

    Minors who are under 16 MAY NOT:

    * Perform any hazardous duties at the fire station;
    * Ride outside of the cab of any fire apparatus;
    * Perform any hazardous work at the scene of an accident;
    * Fight fires (except in training as above).

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY:

    * Ride as a passenger in the cab of a fire truck or in an emergency vehicle;
    * With proper training, fight ground fires when they are directly supervised, except ground fires which involve an existing “crown fire” exposure;
    * Perform patient care (for which they are licensed) in an emergency vehicle or at the scene of an accident or other emergency.
    * Attend and take part in supervised training.
    * Participate in fire department functions wthin the rehabilitation area of an emergency scene. This could include setting up the engine, assisting in water supply efforts, and other support functions, which do not expose the Junior Firefighter to hazardous areas or atmospheres.
    * Pick up hose and clean up at the fire scene after it has been declared safe by the Incident Commander.
    * Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult firefighter once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander.
    * Perform search and rescue activities, other than structural firefighting.
    * Operate a fire pump located outside the danger zone at the direction of the Incident Commander.
    * Use pressurized hose lines if properly trained, under the direction of an Incident Commander, and out of the danger area.

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY NOT:

    * Perform fire suppression involving structures or vehicles.
    * Drive fire department or emergency vehicles.
    * Respond with operating red lights (drive any vehicle, including their own car with attached operating red lights) to the scene of a fire or emergency.
    * Perform firefighting “overhaul” activities (except when the structure has been declared safe by the Incident Commander and then only with adult firefighter).
    * Respond to Hazardous Material events (except for support functions within the cold zone).
    * Perform any activity (except training) which involves the use of self-contained breathing apparatus.
    * Participate or assist in any extrication activities at the scene of an accident or emergency (except in the capacity of a support function).
    * Participate in any activities at the scene of an accident or emergency where fire is involved, unless they are performing support functions from outside the danger area.
    * Participate in actual “ice rescue” activities, but may provide assistance within any designated rehabilitation area or as a support member on dry land only.
    * Direct traffic at the scene of a fire or other emergency.

    http://www.state.me.us/labor/labor_l...de.html#Junior
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  13. #53
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    Well in my Dept we are not allowed to go on calls unless called apon.Although if we are at the Station for drill or meeting we are allowed to ride on the piece only if told by an officer.Our job would be to take the hydrant then report to the driver and help him/her out.

  14. #54
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    * Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult firefighter once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander.


    And that is EXACTLY what i do.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    you won't find them, because they aren't a federeal law. They are state law (check your constitution, Article 10 if I'm not mistaken), and as such, you need to check with your state's department of labor.

    This is what I found using a quick google search. if you don't find your state, contact the dept of Labor (the state one, not the federal one), and ask them. she should be able to show you exactly what you are looking for, or tell you if it doesn't exist.

    and just because you are allowed to do something on your department, doesn't mean you are legally able to do it or it is safe for you to be doing.

    in the state of maine:
    D. Junior Firefighters

    Minors who are under 16 MAY:

    * Perform nonhazardous duties at the fire station;
    * Ride in the cab of the fire apparatus responding to an emergency scene;
    * Attend training sessions. However, if the training is deemed hazardous, an instructor shall supervise the minor;
    * Participate in nonhazardous duties only within the rehabilitation area at the scene of an actual emergency.

    Minors who are under 16 MAY NOT:

    * Perform any hazardous duties at the fire station;
    * Ride outside of the cab of any fire apparatus;
    * Perform any hazardous work at the scene of an accident;
    * Fight fires (except in training as above).

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY:

    * Ride as a passenger in the cab of a fire truck or in an emergency vehicle;
    * With proper training, fight ground fires when they are directly supervised, except ground fires which involve an existing “crown fire” exposure;
    * Perform patient care (for which they are licensed) in an emergency vehicle or at the scene of an accident or other emergency.
    * Attend and take part in supervised training.
    * Participate in fire department functions wthin the rehabilitation area of an emergency scene. This could include setting up the engine, assisting in water supply efforts, and other support functions, which do not expose the Junior Firefighter to hazardous areas or atmospheres.
    * Pick up hose and clean up at the fire scene after it has been declared safe by the Incident Commander.
    * Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult firefighter once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander.
    * Perform search and rescue activities, other than structural firefighting.
    * Operate a fire pump located outside the danger zone at the direction of the Incident Commander.
    * Use pressurized hose lines if properly trained, under the direction of an Incident Commander, and out of the danger area.

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY NOT:

    * Perform fire suppression involving structures or vehicles.
    * Drive fire department or emergency vehicles.
    * Respond with operating red lights (drive any vehicle, including their own car with attached operating red lights) to the scene of a fire or emergency.
    * Perform firefighting “overhaul” activities (except when the structure has been declared safe by the Incident Commander and then only with adult firefighter).
    * Respond to Hazardous Material events (except for support functions within the cold zone).
    * Perform any activity (except training) which involves the use of self-contained breathing apparatus.
    * Participate or assist in any extrication activities at the scene of an accident or emergency (except in the capacity of a support function).
    * Participate in any activities at the scene of an accident or emergency where fire is involved, unless they are performing support functions from outside the danger area.
    * Participate in actual “ice rescue” activities, but may provide assistance within any designated rehabilitation area or as a support member on dry land only.
    * Direct traffic at the scene of a fire or other emergency.

    http://www.state.me.us/labor/labor_l...de.html#Junior
    All of that is for the state of maine, whos to say that for mine it is completly diffrent.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    * Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult firefighter once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander.


    And that is EXACTLY what i do.
    Hey buddy, that is NOT an initial attack. The IC can only deem it safe after the majority of the fire is out and you are doing salvage/overhaul. You said you can do "anything" that a senior member can. That infers interior attack operations, which the above is not.

  17. #57
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    Default Juniors/Explorers/Cadets

    Juniors/Explorers/Cadets or whatever it is that you call them are there for a couple of reasons. To learn what it is like to be in the fire service, to assist in community service type events, and to have a positive after school activity other than sports. They should be taught, mentored, and helped as they devlop into young men and woman. All Fire officers should be using common sense, why are we even having this discussion?? Any officer who puts an explorer, Junior or Cadet into a potentially hazardous situation ought to be fired. There should be no need for a discussion as to what they can and can not do. Just do not put them in danger. If any agency is saying the need the youth for manpower, and to assist ought to be calling mutual aid. There should never be a situation where a department is relying on these youth, and I shudder to think what would happen if an officer was negligent in assigning these kids to roles on scene. The bottom line to my rant is they ought to be observing and learning, not actually working. Now, I agree there is a lot to be learned on a scene, but it should be learned either by standing with the incident commander, or working in the rehab, or canteen area. Why do we need laws, and rules to regulate what we can and can not do with these kids, just don't put them anywhere near danger.

    jon

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPFire1618
    Hey buddy, that is NOT an initial attack. The IC can only deem it safe after the majority of the fire is out and you are doing salvage/overhaul. You said you can do "anything" that a senior member can. That infers interior attack operations, which the above is not.
    Hey hoss, in my book when you are one of the first 3 people into a structure fire, that is intial attack.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    Hey hoss, in my book when you are one of the first 3 people into a structure fire, that is intial attack.
    Regardless...Which I'm sure your laws are the same if not VERY similar..Cause Once again I'll reiterate child labour laws....Now...How the hell do you know if the structure is safe if your on intial attack?
    Last edited by ndvfdff33; 05-16-2006 at 10:11 PM.
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33
    Regardless...Which I'm sure your laws are the same if not VERY similar..Cause Once again I'll reiterate child labour laws....Now...How the hell do you know if the structure is safe if your on intial attack?
    I ask the cheif if i go in or not, then i go in with the first 2 Adult's to go in.

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