1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejarman
    but, we are volunteer
    So are the vast majority of your fellow mates on this site...I don't think theres too many full time FD's with these programs anyways
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief310
    I hear this often. Can anyone tell me where I can find these laws so I can have them to refer to? Can you tell me the chapter in the Code of Federal Regulations where they are printed?

    Thanks
    you won't find them, because they aren't a federeal law. They are state law (check your constitution, Article 10 if I'm not mistaken), and as such, you need to check with your state's department of labor.

    This is what I found using a quick google search. if you don't find your state, contact the dept of Labor (the state one, not the federal one), and ask them. she should be able to show you exactly what you are looking for, or tell you if it doesn't exist.

    and just because you are allowed to do something on your department, doesn't mean you are legally able to do it or it is safe for you to be doing.

    in the state of maine:
    D. Junior Firefighters

    Minors who are under 16 MAY:

    * Perform nonhazardous duties at the fire station;
    * Ride in the cab of the fire apparatus responding to an emergency scene;
    * Attend training sessions. However, if the training is deemed hazardous, an instructor shall supervise the minor;
    * Participate in nonhazardous duties only within the rehabilitation area at the scene of an actual emergency.

    Minors who are under 16 MAY NOT:

    * Perform any hazardous duties at the fire station;
    * Ride outside of the cab of any fire apparatus;
    * Perform any hazardous work at the scene of an accident;
    * Fight fires (except in training as above).

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY:

    * Ride as a passenger in the cab of a fire truck or in an emergency vehicle;
    * With proper training, fight ground fires when they are directly supervised, except ground fires which involve an existing “crown fire” exposure;
    * Perform patient care (for which they are licensed) in an emergency vehicle or at the scene of an accident or other emergency.
    * Attend and take part in supervised training.
    * Participate in fire department functions wthin the rehabilitation area of an emergency scene. This could include setting up the engine, assisting in water supply efforts, and other support functions, which do not expose the Junior Firefighter to hazardous areas or atmospheres.
    * Pick up hose and clean up at the fire scene after it has been declared safe by the Incident Commander.
    * Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult firefighter once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander.
    * Perform search and rescue activities, other than structural firefighting.
    * Operate a fire pump located outside the danger zone at the direction of the Incident Commander.
    * Use pressurized hose lines if properly trained, under the direction of an Incident Commander, and out of the danger area.

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY NOT:

    * Perform fire suppression involving structures or vehicles.
    * Drive fire department or emergency vehicles.
    * Respond with operating red lights (drive any vehicle, including their own car with attached operating red lights) to the scene of a fire or emergency.
    * Perform firefighting “overhaul” activities (except when the structure has been declared safe by the Incident Commander and then only with adult firefighter).
    * Respond to Hazardous Material events (except for support functions within the cold zone).
    * Perform any activity (except training) which involves the use of self-contained breathing apparatus.
    * Participate or assist in any extrication activities at the scene of an accident or emergency (except in the capacity of a support function).
    * Participate in any activities at the scene of an accident or emergency where fire is involved, unless they are performing support functions from outside the danger area.
    * Participate in actual “ice rescue” activities, but may provide assistance within any designated rehabilitation area or as a support member on dry land only.
    * Direct traffic at the scene of a fire or other emergency.

    http://www.state.me.us/labor/labor_l...de.html#Junior
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    Well in my Dept we are not allowed to go on calls unless called apon.Although if we are at the Station for drill or meeting we are allowed to ride on the piece only if told by an officer.Our job would be to take the hydrant then report to the driver and help him/her out.

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    * Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult firefighter once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander.


    And that is EXACTLY what i do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    you won't find them, because they aren't a federeal law. They are state law (check your constitution, Article 10 if I'm not mistaken), and as such, you need to check with your state's department of labor.

    This is what I found using a quick google search. if you don't find your state, contact the dept of Labor (the state one, not the federal one), and ask them. she should be able to show you exactly what you are looking for, or tell you if it doesn't exist.

    and just because you are allowed to do something on your department, doesn't mean you are legally able to do it or it is safe for you to be doing.

    in the state of maine:
    D. Junior Firefighters

    Minors who are under 16 MAY:

    * Perform nonhazardous duties at the fire station;
    * Ride in the cab of the fire apparatus responding to an emergency scene;
    * Attend training sessions. However, if the training is deemed hazardous, an instructor shall supervise the minor;
    * Participate in nonhazardous duties only within the rehabilitation area at the scene of an actual emergency.

    Minors who are under 16 MAY NOT:

    * Perform any hazardous duties at the fire station;
    * Ride outside of the cab of any fire apparatus;
    * Perform any hazardous work at the scene of an accident;
    * Fight fires (except in training as above).

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY:

    * Ride as a passenger in the cab of a fire truck or in an emergency vehicle;
    * With proper training, fight ground fires when they are directly supervised, except ground fires which involve an existing “crown fire” exposure;
    * Perform patient care (for which they are licensed) in an emergency vehicle or at the scene of an accident or other emergency.
    * Attend and take part in supervised training.
    * Participate in fire department functions wthin the rehabilitation area of an emergency scene. This could include setting up the engine, assisting in water supply efforts, and other support functions, which do not expose the Junior Firefighter to hazardous areas or atmospheres.
    * Pick up hose and clean up at the fire scene after it has been declared safe by the Incident Commander.
    * Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult firefighter once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander.
    * Perform search and rescue activities, other than structural firefighting.
    * Operate a fire pump located outside the danger zone at the direction of the Incident Commander.
    * Use pressurized hose lines if properly trained, under the direction of an Incident Commander, and out of the danger area.

    Minors who are 16 and 17 MAY NOT:

    * Perform fire suppression involving structures or vehicles.
    * Drive fire department or emergency vehicles.
    * Respond with operating red lights (drive any vehicle, including their own car with attached operating red lights) to the scene of a fire or emergency.
    * Perform firefighting “overhaul” activities (except when the structure has been declared safe by the Incident Commander and then only with adult firefighter).
    * Respond to Hazardous Material events (except for support functions within the cold zone).
    * Perform any activity (except training) which involves the use of self-contained breathing apparatus.
    * Participate or assist in any extrication activities at the scene of an accident or emergency (except in the capacity of a support function).
    * Participate in any activities at the scene of an accident or emergency where fire is involved, unless they are performing support functions from outside the danger area.
    * Participate in actual “ice rescue” activities, but may provide assistance within any designated rehabilitation area or as a support member on dry land only.
    * Direct traffic at the scene of a fire or other emergency.

    http://www.state.me.us/labor/labor_l...de.html#Junior
    All of that is for the state of maine, whos to say that for mine it is completly diffrent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    * Enter a structure only when accompanied by an adult firefighter once the structure has been determined safe by the Incident Commander.


    And that is EXACTLY what i do.
    Hey buddy, that is NOT an initial attack. The IC can only deem it safe after the majority of the fire is out and you are doing salvage/overhaul. You said you can do "anything" that a senior member can. That infers interior attack operations, which the above is not.

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    Default Juniors/Explorers/Cadets

    Juniors/Explorers/Cadets or whatever it is that you call them are there for a couple of reasons. To learn what it is like to be in the fire service, to assist in community service type events, and to have a positive after school activity other than sports. They should be taught, mentored, and helped as they devlop into young men and woman. All Fire officers should be using common sense, why are we even having this discussion?? Any officer who puts an explorer, Junior or Cadet into a potentially hazardous situation ought to be fired. There should be no need for a discussion as to what they can and can not do. Just do not put them in danger. If any agency is saying the need the youth for manpower, and to assist ought to be calling mutual aid. There should never be a situation where a department is relying on these youth, and I shudder to think what would happen if an officer was negligent in assigning these kids to roles on scene. The bottom line to my rant is they ought to be observing and learning, not actually working. Now, I agree there is a lot to be learned on a scene, but it should be learned either by standing with the incident commander, or working in the rehab, or canteen area. Why do we need laws, and rules to regulate what we can and can not do with these kids, just don't put them anywhere near danger.

    jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPFire1618
    Hey buddy, that is NOT an initial attack. The IC can only deem it safe after the majority of the fire is out and you are doing salvage/overhaul. You said you can do "anything" that a senior member can. That infers interior attack operations, which the above is not.
    Hey hoss, in my book when you are one of the first 3 people into a structure fire, that is intial attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    Hey hoss, in my book when you are one of the first 3 people into a structure fire, that is intial attack.
    Regardless...Which I'm sure your laws are the same if not VERY similar..Cause Once again I'll reiterate child labour laws....Now...How the hell do you know if the structure is safe if your on intial attack?
    Last edited by ndvfdff33; 05-16-2006 at 11:11 PM.
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33
    Regardless...Which I'm sure your laws are the same if not VERY similar..Cause Once again I'll reiterate child labour laws....Now...How the hell do you know if the structure is safe if your on intial attack?
    I ask the cheif if i go in or not, then i go in with the first 2 Adult's to go in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    I ask the cheif if i go in or not, then i go in with the first 2 Adult's to go in.
    So your Chief must be some sort of god I guess if he knows that everythings good to go and you can go in..Which you shouldn't I don't care how crappy of a response your dept gets....I've been on a line with one other guy before and we made out just fine...No need to put you in harms way


    In my mind your chief should be charged for it
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    Criminal neglegence? Risk of injury to a minor? Blatant violation of even the simplest OSHA and NFPA? You're chief isn't exactly the best rolemodel in the world... I suppose you don't wear an air pack either, right? Because god knows you're too badass for that... this is lunacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPFire1618
    Criminal neglegence? Risk of injury to a minor? Blatant violation of even the simplest OSHA and NFPA? You're chief isn't exactly the best rolemodel in the world... I suppose you don't wear an air pack either, right? Because god knows you're too badass for that... this is lunacy.
    AGREED!!!!
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPFire1618
    Criminal neglegence? Risk of injury to a minor? Blatant violation of even the simplest OSHA and NFPA? You're chief isn't exactly the best rolemodel in the world... I suppose you don't wear an air pack either, right? Because god knows you're too badass for that... this is lunacy.

    Takes a real badass to start cutting some one down over a computer too....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    Takes a real badass to start cutting some one down over a computer too....
    He's not trying to be a "badass" man. He's stating fact. Your breaking so many laws by doing what you do and the worst is you don't even give a s**t. Depts like yours put a bad name on the fire service by allowing crap like this to happen. But I'd guess you'd have to open your eyes and get your head out of your butt to realize this
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ndvfdff33
    the worst is you don't even give a s**t.
    When did i say that *******?

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    Let's all just drop it, he's never going to understand no matter how many times we try to pry it into his head with the business end of a halligan. Let people like this dig their own graves (metaphorically I hope.)

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    I personaly think that until you have fully understand all of the circumstances i wouldn't look down on another depratment, or the personal in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    I personaly think that until you have fully understand all of the circumstances i wouldn't look down on another depratment, or the personal in it.
    First of all its personel...And secondly...Regardless of the "circumstances" its still friggin illegal...Get that much in your head..If your dept is letting this happen then yeah I can look down on your dept if I feel like it..

    And no you may not have said you don't give a s**t, but its obvious by the way you talk about this...If you did give a s**t then you wouldn't be doing this because you'd know the punishments that come along with what your doing..Plain and simple
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    Put this in your pipe and smoke it ******* i have been doing this since i was 14, i turned 18 on the third, do you not think that if it was in conflict with a law that it would have been noticed and taken care of or just maybe we found a soultion to get around it legally. hummm bet you didn't think that far smartass.

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    *Tones* 589 on the air, fire department is requested for an investigation. Report of a fully involved FLAME WAR....

    Just let it go... he doesn't understand so just forget it. No use getting tied up in a flame war which will probably end up getting us in trouble. Just to all senior FFs reading this post, the actions of Hartse DO NOT represent the attitudes/actions of all juniors/cadets/explorers, so please do not have your opinions tainted. Most of us follow the rules just like everyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    Put this in your pipe and smoke it ******* i have been doing this since i was 14, i turned 18 on the third, do you not think that if it was in conflict with a law that it would have been noticed and taken care of or just maybe we found a soultion to get around it legally. hummm bet you didn't think that far smartass.
    wow, you turned 18 on the 3rd. I'm guessing of may? listen guys, this young buck has been 18 for a whole 20 days. He definately knows everything, we should all just stay quiet, because this guy who has been an adult for a wopping 20 days knows it all.

    Hartse, in response to your comment, I think your department may be ignorant to the actuall law, or they know that the law exists, but are chosing to ignore it. Do I think it is legal is any state for an under 18 year old person to enter an IDLH or structure fire on the first in hose line? absolutely not. not only is it illegal, it is dangerious, and if something would happen to you, OSHA, NIOSH, and every other government agency involved would fry your department and your department's leadership like an egg on a hot summer day.

    As I told you before, contact your state's department of labor. you ask the question. You want to show me up, good, but don't think I, or anyone else here, is just going to take your word for it, especially when it involves something like this. back up yoru "claims" with solid faces. give your state's Department of Labor a call, their number is (701) 328-2660. you can even call their toll free number, it's 1-800-582-8032. or even better, e-mail them, saying your a 14 year old boy who is on a fire department (be sure to give the name of the department) and you just wanted to make sure it was legal for you to be entering a buring structure with the first hose line in. let me know what they say.

    oh, btw, from the North Dakota (I believe that you are from ND) Child Labor Laws, Chapter 34-07-16 Prohibited employments and occupations of minors:

    Section 13
    "Any other employment not herein specifically enumerated that may be considered dangerous to life or limb or in which health may be injured or morals depraved."

    http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/t34c07.pdf

    and I believe entering a working house fire may be considered dangerous to life or limb. and that's the last I will say in this thread, now you know, what you do with it is your bussiness, but at least you can't plead ignorance or "that isn't the law here" anymore. and before you say it doesn't apply to volunteers, volunteer fire departments are considered employers under the child labor laws.
    Last edited by DrParasite; 05-23-2006 at 11:02 AM.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartse
    Put this in your pipe and smoke it ******* i have been doing this since i was 14, i turned 18 on the third, do you not think that if it was in conflict with a law that it would have been noticed and taken care of or just maybe we found a soultion to get around it legally. hummm bet you didn't think that far smartass.

    Wow...I'm sorry I ever doubted you, your holiness...


    Friggin joke you are....The way you talk about your dept I don't think they would do anything about it..Second off I seriously doubt the govt. is going to bend rules just for your dept man,no matter what your depts situation is..That why they call it laws...Thumbs Up to you though...You know all

    DrParasite...Well said chap...as usual
    Last edited by ndvfdff33; 05-23-2006 at 05:34 PM.
    If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill himself, is it considered a hostage situation?

    Ryan

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    Our post doesn't respond with our department to calls or participate in regular department training/drills. The only time we're really functioning directly with the department is at community events when we assist them (tours, smokehouse, demonstrations,etc). We also help them around the station with clean up after calls and the like. Normally, we just do our drills at meetings.

    However, I wish we were able to respond to calls and assist at the scene in ways that weren't hazardous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by concordfire
    just wondering but shouldn't your bottles always be full??? and shouldnt they always be checked often to make sure they are full?? what good is a half full air bottle???

    Yes.......Yes......and worthless.......

    Our SOP/SOG's clearly state that unless directed to do so by an officer, an SCBA tank that is not 100% full is not to be placed in service.
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    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
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