1. #1
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    Exclamation Village Board wants?????

    Our village board is demanding that we turn over our books so they can see how much money we raise during our fundraisers, we as a department are saying NO!!!! They want our members to use the money to pay for police overtime for our functions and use our raised monies to cut their fire budget.... Does anybody Especially any NY Vol depts know of any legal reasons we have to turn over our books to these people? Any HELP would be appreciated!!!!!! The meeting is Monday night and I need to get my ducks in a row when i tell them to stick it along with the other 59 members of our Dept. Anybody read about the NY dept that turned in their gear after their politicians tried to stick it to them, we are well on our way and the 60 bags will be piled up on their steps MOnday night.... It would kill me to do that but we won't be bullied............

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    Mark
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    If you're a 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt non-profit corporation with gross receipts over $25,000 a year you file a 990.

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-irbs/irb99-17.pdf
    A tax-exempt organization, other than one that is a private foundation, must make its three most recent annual information returns available pursuant to these final regulations. Generally, an annual information return includes Forms 990, 990-EZ, 990-BL, and Form 1065. It also includes, generally, all schedules and attachments filed with the IRS. An organization is not required, however, to disclose the parts of the return that identify names and addresses of contributors to the organization, nor is it required to disclose Form 990-T.

    And the 990 is not only a public record you're required to disclose, but many can be looked up at http://www.guidestar.org/search/

    A 990 will give people a "big picture" view of your organization if you're required to file one. It'll have broken down within it the bottom line of government grants (i.e. tax money you get from the town/state/feds), fundraising money, and other income like ambulance billing. It will also list the cash balances in your bank accounts, among other information.

    Garbage in, garbage out holds true for guidestar too -- my company's last report on it shows three years worth of revenue in one year -- that's damn embarrassing to explain to town leaders when they look it up (and it will be getting amended and corrected!) Moral: 990s count...don't neglect them!

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    Mark (TLFD40),

    The best advice I can give you is speak to your department/company attorney as soon as possible. If the only legal help you've had up to this point is the village's lawyer, I strongly suggest you seek out an attorney who will represent your best interests.

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    Dal 90 gave you some good information if it applies. What is your entity? That is, how are you legally organized? In N.Y. it could be 1 of several legal entities. You may not be a corporation,profit or non-profit. If non-profit you may not be exempt, just don't have any tax to pay. So, how you are organized is most importent. Do what you have been advised here, see your OWN Attorney! Bob Compton, Esq.
    Last edited by ENG6511; 06-15-2002 at 05:58 PM.
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    Default Village

    Thanks for the replies, keep them coming... We were incorporated 100 years ago. The village owns us and they budget us. We raise our own money for our supper meetings, block dances and barbecues for the residents. We bust our butts to raise and the village will not get their hands on it at all!!!!!!!!! Thanks again brothers for your info!!!
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    As a scout for the IACOJ-BMI I could declare the M word here. But I don't want to get banned. Fight! Fight! Fight! Get an attorney involved, however since you are funded by the village this might get ugly. Good Luck.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
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    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

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    Another way you could handle this is to suspend the fund raisers and spend the money on goodies. Just a thought. So the village can't claim anything to it.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

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    Puffy, I am not convinced that the M word is appropriate here. Dal is right. I think they have to be accountable and I think that they have to abide by the open public record laws.

    As far as the legality of the town using the money to reduce taxes, that is a bit extreme. But, if they are having a private function, why shouldn't they pay for their own PD OT? Any other organization would. They taxpayers shuold not be burdened with OT costs from what amounts to a private fundraiser.

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    Default Why the PD OT?

    I guess I would want to know what kind of fundraisers you all are doing which would require PD OT. Maybe things are diffent there, but where I have lived, dances can be handled with a few drop-ins by PD during normal patrol patterns. Bars are handled the same way. I find it curious that you would have to have a PD officer there at all times for security reasons. If alcohol is a factor, I would advise get rid of it, as it really doesn't belong in a Fire and Rescue environment anyways. Think about it, would you want to have to cut someone out of a car after they were drinking at a FD sponsored event? I would like more info on what exactly you all are doing to raise this money first of all. And I agree with George that if PD OT is required as a security measure, you should pay for it. The simplest way to avoid this is to do away with that activity. As for showing your books, I think you must show the books. You said:
    The village owns us and they budget us. We raise our own money for our supper meetings, block dances and barbecues for the residents.
    You answered your own question. They own you, and control your budget. As for cutting your fire budget, I don't agree with that. Good luck on holding the line there, but show the books. Unless you have something to hide, there is no reason not to, and fighting it will just give the politicians a reason to think they are onto some dirty laundry. Good luck.
    "Illigitimi Non Carborundum"

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    Talking Update

    The meeting was very interesting, the lying and back stabbing was intense. The money issue is dead, they want it and they are not getting it. Then we find out they had another executive session and voted to dismantle our training tower and remove our raciong strip. They sat there and said they didn't vote on it and then the village clerk stood up and said yes you all did vote on that and scheduled the demolition for the next week. Lying bastards!!!!!! They want a fight they got it.... We are tired of being taken for granted... We told them we would not request any Police protection ever again and they were responsible for providing said protection, they need to budget for it. My blood pressure is pretty high right now, just writing this... They want to disband our 12 man police force, but that is another story..........

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    Racing strip?

    Let me see if I get this, they are looking to disband the PD and you are mad because they want you to be accountable for money you raised for a municipal agency, probably on municipally owned property?

    With all due respect, this sounds like the rantings of a bunch of people who have lost the vision, lost the mission, lost the reason that you are there in the first place.

    Racing strip?

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    Thumbs down That explains the PD OT, I guess.

    Racing Strip.... I am with you on this one, George. I couldn't have said it as well myself.
    "Illigitimi Non Carborundum"

    "The views expressed by me are solely my own, and in no way reflect the views of any organization which I belong to."

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    Question Who woulda thunk...they still do dat.

    Originally posted by George Wendt, CFI
    Racing strip?
    Well George, I did some research in my free time. It didn't take long to find the TLFD or Tupper Lake Fire Department. Further checking revealed that they indeed have a racing strip, and are members of the FD racing league...so to speak. You and I remember it on ABC"s Wide World Of Sports. HOW they fund these "engines", contests and insurance....is up for speculation. I shall reserve other comments...until TLFD40 states or perhaps, restates his case.

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    Just to clarify the racing strip. If I don't miss my guess he's referring to firematics competions. You should be aware of that George, it's done right next door to you in N.Y.(real popular on Long Island). Alot of the major depts there have a team and I don't think they've lost their focus. I think the web address is fdracing.com or check our site under history at dexterfd.org.

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    I'm sure when they do their Fund Raising, it does not mention being for running the firehouse. I am sure their fund raising is themed on supper meetings, block dances and barbecues for the residents. If the fund raising sign says help support your local firehouse, people think they are helping buy fire equipment. Generic fund raising like this led to us having a similar situation, where a political party asked to see all of our books also. We do file 990 and told them that is all they are entitled to see. But our attorney did point out the interesting things about fund raiser's and how they should be phrased.

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    Firematics? Please tell me on what page of the IFSTA manuals I can find the following evolutions:

    MOTOR H&L CLASS B:
    Nine men are allowed. B-Truck with motor running and men on truck placed with hub of front wheels over a line 150ft from arch. Truck will run down course crossing timing line which is 100ft from arch. Men will take racing ladder from rear of truck and raise it to the arch. Man to start to climb no higher than the climbing rung, and not until the ladder has been removed entirely free of truck, and ascend to the top. Time will be taken when climber touches top rung. Ladder climber cannot be assisted. Climber has one chance to grasp top rung.

    RUNNING H&L:
    15 men allowed. Wagon, with spikes or nonskid device of racing ladder inside body, placed with hub of front wheels over a line 100ft from arch. At starting signal men to run down course with wagon, ladder to stay in cart until 50ft from arch and then dig and raise ladder to arch. Man to start climb not higher than climbing rung and ascend to top. Ladder climber cannot be assisted. Time will be taken when climber touches top rung.

    RUNNING HOSE REPLACEMENT:
    15 men allowed. Wagon with four lengths of hose, three lengths of which, and a nozzle, properly coupled together in a body of wagon placed with hub of front wheels over a line 25ft from hydrant. At starting signal men to run down course with wagon and in any sequence connect to and open hydrant using outlet nearest arch, lay three lengths of hose in a normal hose pattern, pass water thru hose and nozzle and trip target on right side of course 175ft from hydrant. After first target is tripped man may leave wagon with fourth length and substitute it for the middle length. When replacement is made, pass water thru hose and nozzle and trip target on left side of course 175ft from hydrant when finish time will be taken.



    I have watched this on Wide World of Sports. It is entertaining to watch. I would not begrudge anyone their entertainment. However...

    Why should the citizenry of this town be up in arms that the FD may have to find their own traffic control when they face the loss of a valuable municipal service like the police department? When you make that comparison, in my opinion, that is losing your focus.

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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    If you're a 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt non-profit corporation with gross receipts over $25,000 a year you file a 990.
    Wow! Sorry to insult you, but that was almost a "lawyer" like answer. LOL.

    This of course assumes 2 things that are often untrue for a volunteer fire company:

    1) They have filed for tax exempt status and
    2) They have ever filed a tax return.

    My own company never filed a tax return before 1994..... long story, but we are all legal now.
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

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    Default Re: Update

    Originally posted by TLFD40
    We told them we would not request any Police protection ever again and they were responsible for providing said protection, they need to budget for it.
    You requested police protection for what?

    A fire scene?
    A fund raiser?
    A party?

    Unless it is a fire scene, why shouldn't you pay for it?

    Why are they responsible for providing it?

    Give us the whole story.....
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

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    Kind of surprising, or not, that once the idea of the racing and when he would want police protection has been debated, he has disappeared and not replied to any questions in a while!!! I don't know, but something might smell a little fishy here????

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    EASY TWO SETS OF BOOKS

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    Exclamation Lost???????

    Lost?? I think not, i am a father with a wife and 4 kids 15 years to 3 months plus work, so i don't have a lot of time to sit on my butt in front of the computer.... I should have printed out the questions you presented me, i will try from memory... we never requested police presence. They hired the overtime and the taxpayers (including myself) deserve it. They just want to cut their budget, they have also been trying to get rid of the PD for years, why, because they are one of the lowest paid in NY, and they lose a person every two years. they won't do it, but they always talk about it and that's why we can worry about our Training Tower and Race track and not the PD. We don't race, we host the races, you know how much one of those cars costs? There ya go again, because we are a volunteer Dept, we all drink and drive our cars w/blue ligts ablaze. Some of us don't drink, some of us take our volunteering serious. Plus if some one shows up drunk on my fire scene, they are removed immediately. Enough said! Lost sight of what? we use that money to buy things that the village cuts from our budget, we have telephone bills, cable bill etc..... yeah, we buy a shirt here or there and some jackets every 3 years, this year we ordered new uniforms, money does not get ****ed away. Why should the police be present at a block dance were there are about 150-200 people, oh i don't know maybe because I AM A TAXPAYER AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO DONATE TO THE FIRE DEPARTMENT TO PAY OVERTIME FOR POLICE PROTECTION I HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR!!!!!!!!!!!! tHIS IS A BIGGER STORY THAN I CAN TELL IN THIS FORUM. Any questions? Write back!!!!! Two Books, never thought of that one Capt!!!! Only kidding!!!!
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    TLFD40's problem can be solved by the time honored method of forming an auxillary. The TLFD Auxillary would hold the fund raisers, etc. Their books are separate. The can control what is purchased with the funds and any government bid laws, etc. can be ignored. They purchase whatever, and gift the material to the TLFD. It's been done for years in many types of organizations.

    Oh, are most members of the Auxillary the members of the TLFD and their families? Interesting, but it doesn't change a thing.
    Last edited by svfd162; 06-28-2002 at 10:18 AM.
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    TLFD:

    You were doing better when you didn't say anything.

    1. As a fellow law enforcement officer, I am sure that you are aware that the police department doesn't just decide to bring in officers on OT just for the hell of it. If they are assigning PD to your events one of two things is happening: a) somebody requested it or b) There is a need for the protection of the public at your events. There are no other reasons.

    My FD runs a carnival every year. Because there is a liqour license involved and because there are large crowds, the PD requires that a certain number of officers be hired on OT to patrol the grounds. It is completely unreasonable to expect that this OT expenditure, which gets quite costly over the course of four days, be paid for by the taxpayers. No one even suggests it. You, as a taxpayer, pay for police PATROLS and someone to answere emergencies or service calls. You don't pay taxes for someone to walk around and babysit a blockdance. If that is happening, there is no wonder they are trying to do away with the PD.

    2. If money is so tight, you must guard against the waste of funds. Exactly how many fires can be fought with shirts and uniforms. Yeah, they're neat to have, but at the expense of legit fire fighting equipment? How about no cable in the firehouse? That's what real people do if they can't afford it.

    3. Please try to explain to me the relevance of the cost of a race car to this discussion. And who said anything about driving drunk?

    4. Your "I deserve it" attitude is unbelievable. I was right, you guys have lost sight of what this is about. But try to tell us the whole story in the forum. We have time. There are no space limitations. Help us to understand.

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    Default Re: Village Board wants?????

    Your story changes more often than the weather....

    Originally posted by TLFD40
    They want our members to use the money to pay for police overtime for our functions and use our raised monies to cut their fire budget....
    Now you reply and among your soapbox comments, you claim that the police has nothing to do with your company or its events... which one is it?

    If you have sufficient funds from your fundraisers, why shouldn't the town cut your budget. You clearly don't need the money.

    As far as the alcohol issue, it was you that said:

    Originally posted by TLFD40
    We raise our own money for our supper meetings, block dances and barbecues for the residents.
    So you raise money to party, not to fight fires. I don't blame the town for being upset.
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

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    I think Malahat Two-7's signature line says it best..."Better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

    But anyway, back to the original question:
    Does anybody Especially any NY Vol depts know of any legal reasons we have to turn over our books to these people?
    Does anyone have the answer to this?

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