1. #1
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    West Haven, CT (allingtown district)
    Posts
    80

    Default An unfortunate turn of events

    To the honorable members of the IACOJ, other forum users, and
    canine of unpure breed,

    It has come to my attention that several Firehouse.com forum users, who have been an asset to the forums for as long as I've been reading these post have been banned. For as far as I can read, they were banned because they dissapproved of the webteam's decision to ban the use of the term 'm#tt'. To me, this is an act of censureship because they were banned for their opposition. For as long as I can remember, the webteam has told us that they try not to censure us while providing a place for us to communicate freely. While I personally don't fully agree with the ban of the m word, I can understand and accept the rule. On the other hand, when Adze, E229Lt, and Motown get banned from this site, for objecting to a rule. The webteam says that they were kicked off for bashing them. Well, when I make a mistake around my firehouse, I hear about it, so why should it be any different for a website of the same name? I believe the webteam should "grow a thicker skin" and accept that people aren't always going to agree with them. I am antipating being banned for this post, but rest assured, I'll be back. "There's aways a way around an IP ban" I've been told. I'll be back because I still think there is a glimmer of hope in these dark days at firehouse.com

    -steve

  2. #2
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    West Haven, CT (allingtown district)
    Posts
    80

    Default

    In order to report the correct situation, i need to correct myself. According to webteam, only person to be permenately removed was motown, the others were "warned" or "temporarily banned"

    -steve

  3. #3
    Permanently Removed
    PrivateJoker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    John Wayne's Sidecar
    Posts
    52

    Talking FIRE CHIEF

    There is an article addressing this very issue in Fire Chief Magazine under Lex de Incendiis. The title is "Pickering Still Rules Roost in First Amendment Law" it is written by Rukavina. If you get a chance check it out.

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    also remember the ecappy and steamer both voluntarily resigend...although I just saw another post from steamer, so maybe he didn't.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Co11FireGal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Country Roads, Take Me Home...
    Posts
    721

    Angry Leatha4eva...

    Well, I am not going to express my entire opinion on this issue since I enjoy posting here at Firehouse.Com, but I do feel that the fire service needs a strong voice. Especially right now. I would think that all of those associated with the fire service would want to see it represented well and with this strong voice. Adze, E229Lt, and Motown have always done this as far as I can see. These people appear to be great leaders and prime examples of what fire service personnel should be. They are respected by their fellow, um, crusties, and looked up to by future crusties such as myself and MANY others. I'd like to know the opinion of a few certain people on this...

    What do you think would happen if no one spoke up for the fire service?

    I feel really sorry for the mutts that apparently went and cried to the Webteam, just as my little 7y/o sister goes and cries to Mommy and Daddy to get me into trouble. If someone was seriously offended by being called a mutt, they must be a mutt. Sometimes the truth hurts, but as Captain Gonzo said, "If the shoe fits..."

    After thinking and thinking on this issue...

    Well, I took some ibuprofen. Now I'm back.

    No, seriously now, I have thought about all the people who have been called mutts in these forums. These include fire service brass that aren't careful with the lives of their firefighters, arsonists who don't give a crap, city/town/county government officials that are closing firehouses, and again, don't give a crap, and even firefighters right here at Firehouse.Com that are so ignorant and juvenile that they post before thinking and make all of us look bad. I just literally can't comprehend why panties are in a bunch over them being called mutts! What else do you call them?!

    The "mutt issue," along with the idea that censorship is wrong, has severely taken its toll on the quality of the Firehouse.Com forums.

    Webteam, I know your job is tough, but my God, you're involved with the fire service just like the rest of us. If the people I mentioned above are allowed to win like this, there will be no need for Firehouse.Com because the fire service as we know it will cease to exist!

    Note to the Webteam: I am not saying that if you crew was "bashed" in someway that the individuals were correct, and I definitely DO NOT condone this behavior. It just seems like there would be a point where ya'll could understand some of our positions. After all, I'M SURE that you guys, being involved with a group that tries to get the issues out there, don't agree with the mutts, or what ever you wanna call them. Yet they are being allowed to win? And truly productive and contributing members are being removed from the site?

    ~Co11FireGal

  6. #6
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Lighten up people.

    Go back a few weeks and read the threads. Maybe we were getting a little over the top. Maybe people did get offended.

    Maybe they deserved to be, or maybe they didn't.

    The webteam do an excellent job on this place, as a web developer by trade I can say this is one outstanding peice of workmanship.

    I do not feel that what they said was an attempt at censorship. It was an attempt to stop a generic expression being applied to liberally and in to many places.

    They tried to apply a voice of reason, all the way through their comments. If I am reading this rightly, they have said that mutt should not be used in a slanderous or libelous manner. If the actual word was the root of the problem they would have added it to the "Nasty Word Filter List".

    We all know of the type of people being expressed by the word itself and use it as a generic expression. Damn, you could work in any job and find these people. It just happens that in ours and similar trades, they can and do get people hurt or worse.

    I think they just want us to move on with enjoying talking to each other and sharing knowledge etc.

    At the end of it they have censured (not censored) a few people, to get the message across, I think they have succeded.

    Apart from every other reason, just remember, this is their house, they own it, we are guests. When in Rome....

    These thoughts are mine and mine alone. I have one every now and then. For no apparent reason they just happen.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    little south of sanity
    Posts
    118

    Default co11firegal

    WELL SAID


    BRAVO!!!!
    GOD BLESS THOSE WHO WENT BEFORE US

  8. #8
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    West Haven, CT (allingtown district)
    Posts
    80

    Default

    flying kiwi,
    I didn't say the webteam was censoring by saying dont use the word, i said they were censoring by banning certain users who disagree with them.
    Btw, I mean censor, censor means to examine and prohibit, censure means to place blame, I just checked with the american heritage dictionary, brother

    and well, the discussion is getting a little umm, heavy on the iacoj site, but remember, the webteam does own this site, so lets keep everything here as courteous as it has been

    -steve

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Clermont County, Ohio
    Posts
    569

    Default Request For WebTeam To Reconsider The Specfics of Their Rule - Not the Intent

    Web Team,
    I'm asking you to reconsider the specific implementation of your intent to eliminate hostile or "flame" messages which you've called potentially libelous or slanderous.

    Some words are clearly out of bounds, e.g. slurs based on race, gender, ethnicity, or sexual preference. We really haven't seen those used on these boards. Words that are more political commentary really aren't out of bounds. "Mutt" really falls into that category. All the definitions posted very much fit that category. Based on that, I'm asking you to change what you've said.

    You clearly should not be subjected to abuse for your decisions and rule-making. However, you should expect and accept respectful disagreement. The decisions you make and the way you express them influences how much respect you have and how these forums are perceived. I speak from experience. I'm the web hosting operations manager for a Fortune 50 company. We've had to deal with inappropriate sexual content in a forum on one of our public sites. By coming across heavy handed in our response, we drove even more participants away - consumers we were trying to attract.

    I'd like to offer an alternative approach: use more member moderators. That will lessen the burden on you, and permit members who have personal creditability with other users deal with the out-of-bounds messages.

    Thank you in advance for considering this.
    Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Co11FireGal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Country Roads, Take Me Home...
    Posts
    721

    Post Kiwi...

    I think we all realize the fact that the WebTeam does a great job, and we should consider ourselves lucky to have a great place such a Firehouse.Com on which to express our opinions. Though, it seems that lately we have had an increasingly difficult time doing so. Again, I ask, what would happen if no one spoke up for the fire service? Things may have gotten a little out of hand, but censorship is just that, no matter how minimal or extreme. I am not condoning the libel, just trying to stick up for those who have been removed, temporarily or permanently. They have proved themselves worthy of posting on countless occasions. Let's face it ... everyone makes mistakes...

    Also, I could be wrong, but I believe I have used the word correctly.
    Last edited by Co11FireGal; 06-17-2002 at 04:37 PM.

  11. #11
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,480

    Default

    should expect and accept respectful disagreement

    Yes, if its respectful we do. If its not, then we should be able to act accordingly. We only act when the initial response or thread itself is disrespectful -- rather than constructive.


    Also, for the record, everynoe is back and there is no new policy here, other than not to slander or libel another user by calling them a 'mutt' based upon the reasonable understanding of the defenition of the word. Thats all this has been about, thats all it is about.

    WebTeam

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    Co11FireGal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Country Roads, Take Me Home...
    Posts
    721

    Talking

    Glad this has been resolved...

    WebTeam, even though all of us may not always agree, we still respect and appreciate the job that you do. Thank you.

  13. #13
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    White Flag Waving Furiously From Behind The Sandbags.

    Even in a society gauranteeing freedom of speech and movement, there are a few rules.

    These rules every now and then are tested, because they were deliberately written losely to gaurantee the freedom in the first place.


    Ok so in the thread http://www.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...5&pagenumber=1 the web team wrote.



    Use of the term 'MUTT' to refer to another member of the Firehouse.com Forums is a violation of the Terms of Service of the site. While we will be somewhat liberal in use of the term in general, calling a specific user a 'mutt' in the open forum will be considered a violation of the policy. Additionally, calling a private individual this name as well could be construed as slander and we will monitor it closely.
    Followed by the word THANKS.

    they then left the thread open for discussion.

    a couple of posts later they added

    The bottom line here is don't slander another user. That's it. You folks are making too much of nothing. Have you seen us remove any posts that use the term reasonably? No. It was just a simple statement about not using against other users simply to provoke a fight.If it said don't ever use it again for anything, then you'd have an argument. But since it doesn't why not just move on since the posts that we WERE referring to that did use it in an inappropriate manner have been removed.
    now after sum fun and humor not related to the topic, there was one comment made the webteam took exception to.

    Maybe it was because of all the other threads as well, but we end with the following.

    Sorry folks but we're not going to have someone say its a 'power trip' simply to ask people not to slander someone else with the Term. As you see we havent acted against any thread and have allowed the Off-Duty discussion to be totally free flow. But we won't allow this thread to continue following that post. Drop the discussion on the use of the Term Mutt and move on. All future threads about the threads, rather than moving on to new or different topics, will be deleted.
    SO we were warned quite clearly many times, and given explanations as to the teams reasoning.

    This thread will probably be closed down for all of the reasons given above.

    We have tested the rules, and been given an answer.

    I would like to see the webteam throw up a thread giving a link to the terms and conditions for clarification.

  14. #14
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Excuse me.

    While I was digging that up and typing as fast as my beak will allow, the previous two posts came in.

    I will now wander over the horizon muttering and mumbling to another thread.

  15. #15
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,480

    Default Thanks

    Flying Kiwi

    Thank you! That is exactly what happened. We explained it, we clairifed it, and re-clarified it. Yet some folks still just wanted to push the envelope and try to make others think there was some dark meaning to it. It was just a simple request, a request to TRY to be somewhat decent to other members.

    You can still call an arsonist a mutt...its ok, really

    But after explaining SO many times and still being attacked...there just is a line drawn. Especially when it boils over to other sites with our users seeing some pretty harsh comments on other sites about something SO simple.

    Related to the dozens of posts that included the term, only ONE was deleted. And no threads were closed, until they chose to push the envelope and try to make something small into something big, and something it wasn't.

    Thanks
    WebTeam

    P.S. You can view the Terms of Service by clicking the FAQ link to the left of any page.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    MOTOWN88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    DETROIT
    Posts
    415

    Default

    Motown and the Webteam last seen in a south west Detroit pub holding hands and swilling Guinness.......its over, nuff said
    I.A.C.O.J IRISH TATTOOED-HOOLIGAN

    DETROIT FIRE FIGHTER AND PROUD!

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Co11FireGal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Country Roads, Take Me Home...
    Posts
    721

    Wink Yikes...

    That's great and all, but that'd be what I consider TMI. Too Much Information.

    Did you really have to tell us about the holding hands part?!?!

  18. #18
    Permanently Removed
    PrivateJoker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    John Wayne's Sidecar
    Posts
    52

    Talking

    Motown and the Webteam last seen in a south west Detroit pub holding hands and swilling Guinness.......its over, nuff said
    Ya got my hanky wet!

  19. #19
    Disillusioned Subscriber
    Steamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,475

    Default

    hfd66truck wrote:
    also remember the ecappy and steamer both voluntarily resigend...although I just saw another post from steamer, so maybe he didn't.
    Nope, no such luck. I generally hang around to put my $0.02 and change into the pot. It's much more likely that I'd be dragged away kickin' and screamin'. I've learned to wait until my Irish blood cools to a simmer before I do or say anything. It took me a long time and many "altercations" to learn that lesson, but it's worked well since I did.
    Steve Gallagher
    IACOJ BOT
    ----------------------------
    "I don't apologize for anything. When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA
    Posts
    985

    Default

    May I add that it's only censorship when the government does it?

    Firehouse.com is privately owned. They can refuse to let us use the word "shoe" if they so desire. Or randomly draw a name out of a hat every week and boot someone off, for that matter.

    The fact that Webteam even explains themselves to us or lets us debate the issue is a priviledge.

    So, Motown, you only buy beers for people who ban you?! Fine. Shazaam!! You're banned from Silver City!

    .....waits five minutes......

    Now you can come back, Motown. Where's MY beer? (but I don't want to hold your hand unless it's to help you into a window at a fire or something)
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    Glad to see it Steamer, that was based on what Ecappy said in his hurry to go.

    I am glad to see this all resolved as well, I think part of the problem, if you followed all closely(as Kiwi did) is that this topic was covered in about 4 different places. Some confusion may have been based on that.

    Welcome back all......and webteam, thank you!

    Dave

    -searching for Kiwi, last seen mumbling and muttering, holding flag, shaking head....

  22. #22
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    The last part of this has been CENSORED, and the ram responsible CENSURED.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    ENG6511's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    174

    Default

    UNBELIEVABLE, SIMPLY UNBELIEVABLE! THAT'S ALL FOLKS.
    Bob Compton
    IACOJ-Proud
    IACOJ-HALL OF FAME-2003

  24. #24
    Permanently Removed
    PrivateJoker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    John Wayne's Sidecar
    Posts
    52

    Unhappy THIS MAY BE MY LAST MESSAGE!

    The last part of this has been CENSORED, and the ram responsible CENSURED.
    I hope this counts as following the thread.......a ram was mentioned......
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  25. #25
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    ADZE, MALAHATS, HFD66, SILVER CITY, STEAMER, ANYONE.

    HELP ME.

    I can't resist, I'm gonna have to get the Mutt out of his kennel and rustle that one, it just looks good. WOOF WOOF.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register