Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default House breaking the puppies

    I'm looking for some suggestions on how to handle a group of yungins who have recently completed Fire Fighter I and have developed huge chips on their shoulders. You know the drill, they pass a class and now the guy who has been riding the engine for 5 or 10 years suddenly knows nothing. I've tried to subtly point out that for the most part, FF I gives you just enough knowledge to be a danger to yourself and others around you and that their true education as a fire fighter has A. Just Begun, and B. Will never stop. I may as well be talking to a stone wall.

    For the most part I've been ignored as "one of those old guys." They hang out together and feed off each other, which just makes the problem worse. They do some work around the station, but you have to start, and then they'll pitch in. No initiative. They also complain that we don't train enough, which is a valid point, and that we don't do things "the right way." I mentioned that they have oppurtunities to speak up and ask for in station training and explanations of our SOP's, and they don't. They think they should be able to sit back and have it handed to them. When I suggested that they ask an officer for his OK to take a ladder off an engine and throw it against the building or practice with the BA, they looked at me like I had ten heads. The scary part is that these are the guys who will be around all the time manning the engines during the day while us "old farts" work for a living. My officers are going to have their hands full with this bunch.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it


  2. #2
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,575

    Default

    They have 360 syndrome...3 months on and 60 years worth of experience!

    The first thing that should be done is to hand them the rules and regulations of your department..it should clearly state the chain of command for emergency scenes and other station matters..which reminds me...they are on the bottom of the chain...below "whale scat". If they cannot follow the the rules in the house when there is no emergency, they can't be trusted to do what right when it counts.

    When they get out of line, you have to straighten them out right away. There are times where just a simple suggestion may work wonders, then there are times where you have to be a subtle as a sledgehammer!

    You should acess the "pups" thread, print it out and ask them if they see themselves.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  3. #3
    Senior Member bfpd36's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    163

    Default

    It's refreshing to see that we aren't the only dept with this problem. Senior ff's usually just ignore them, which usually strengthens their bravado. Once that happens, they usually open their trap to an officer who knocks that chip off real quick!

    Then it's manual labor and possibly a 1000 word report about respecting their elders for them. If that doesn't work, the senior firefighters take care of it themselves when the officers aren't around. They don't tell me what they do and I don't ask.
    ftm-ptb-rbp
    leather forever

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Gonzo, printing out the pups thread is a good suggestion. I'm not by nature a sledgehammer type of guy when dealing with others, but you're right, the subtle approach doesn't always work. We'll see if they're dependable at the next worker we get. I don't enjoy having to watch my back and the fire conditions at the same time, but hey, someone has to teach these guys. I just wish they realized how much they don't know!
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    bfpd36, these guys have started running their yaps this week (they just passed their mid-term exams) while most of the officers are at the state convention. Hopefully, some straightening out will happen next week. We have a couple of guys who were put on the engine right after they passed the exam to fill out crews on auto alarms during the day when we're short staffed, so now they think they're ready to do anything.

    One of these yahoos was asked by straighten up his gear on the rack 'cause it was leaning all over his neighbor's helmet (one of our senior guys). Now I'm sure the vet wasn't too subtle with his request and the newbie took umbrage and said that the vet better be careful or he (the newbie) would "mess with his gear." I'm rather surprised the vet didn't rearrange the map of this kid's face for it. When confronted, the newbie said he was joking, but where do they even get the idea that messing with gear is remotely acceptable? We're talking personal safety here, and if somebody makes statements like this I'm sure as he-double hockey sticks not going to trust this guy to back me up.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  6. #6
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,575

    Default

    Ask the little "Yahoopup" if he wants to be charged with causing the death or injury to one of his brother firefighters for messing with his PPE...usually a healthy dose of reality brings these pups down to earth...if that doesn't work, take a rolled up issue of Firehouse Magazine and whack them with it!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Longview,Tx,United States
    Posts
    38

    Default

    I think most dept. have this problem in some form or another one way I saw it handled was the officer( I was with another engine Co.) told these two new guys "ok so you feel you know everything you need to know" when they said "yea we are not scared of anything" he arranged a drill at our burn house and let the probies run a simulated structure fire(they did not know of this in advance) one was "the officer in charge" the other was the"pump operator" and the rest of us were the other responding crews. When they totaly screwed things up "pump opperator had a hard time getting water from plug to truck, and the officer forgot many important factors when comanding a fire" the lessons learned from this simple drill was that the older guys do know what they are doing so simply listening to them and watching them you may learn something and 2nd just because you pass the state firefighting exam does not mean you know it all it takes years and many mistakes to learn a fraction of what it takes to be succesful in this job.
    Never forget the fallen.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    Next ( or first ) fire they're at, if they get out of hand. Grab them by the scruff of the neck, push their nose into the fire and yell NO!

    Works on all the other outbred canines I know.

  9. #9
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    LMFAO
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    53

    Default

    Groves, i'm with you. Dont tell them they dont know anything, make them prove it to themselves that they, as Cpt Gonzo put it, lower than whale scat.

  11. #11
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    I suggest an obedience class first with leash attached. If that doesn't work, try a rolled up newspaper and give them a little tap on the nose.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. Now that our new training facillity is open, the suggestion of letting them run an incident is a great idea. Should open a few eyes. I'm also waiting for the first time they have to overhaul and rack up 1000ft. of four inch. That's been known to "house break" people in the past. Captain Gonzo, thanks for the tip about the "Pups" thread. I was swamped at work and putting in a lot of OT when that thread was active, and I missed it the first time.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  13. #13
    Senior Member firecat1524's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    191

    Default gotta love the pups....NOT

    I got one that despite the fact he's only been on the FD for 2 years...is gonna show me how it's really done. I normally wouldn't mind this...but since I've been in the service now for almost 13 years...this kid wasn't even a teenager when I started.
    The other week we had a couple of heavily involved fires....both totally defensive operations, so we couldn't go play...where we laid out 5" supply lines. When we got done on the second one and was loading the big line, my pup made the comment " Man, the first time I use 5" and I use it twice in one day." And he's gonna show me how it's done??
    There is hope though....just last week council approved 20 additional positions, so hopefully he will transfer back to his home company where he can fight grass fires and tindominum fires and leave the structural firefighting to the jakes.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    I wish you luck. I don't think anyone else would take a couple of these jokers. They don't realize how quickly their reputations spreads.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  15. #15
    Forum Member MOTOWN88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    DETROIT
    Posts
    415

    Default

    I have found that this all begins on the first week of duty, by not starting off treating them like the “boot” they are. If you start off telling them they actually don’t know anything and you don’t care where they came from and how they did it where they came from then begins the re-training.

    There are several methods to attain such a level of respect and responsibility, just read this article to see the tip o’ the iceberg http://www.freep.com/features/living...1_20020331.htm

    There is something about 3 am hydrant drills and ladder training that will whip a new puppy into quick shape.
    I.A.C.O.J IRISH TATTOOED-HOOLIGAN

    DETROIT FIRE FIGHTER AND PROUD!

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Hey Motown, thanks for the link. I remember reading that article a while back. My favorite line, and one that I think I'll use on these guys, is that "you don't know enough to know what you don't know." Heck, I've been riding for 13 years, and I learn something every call, even if it's as mundane as where the switch is to turn off a malfunctioning alarm in a local apartment complex (No annunciator panel. Have to turn off a switch in a utility closet).
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

  17. #17
    Forum Member joejoe33's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Rowlett,Texas,U.S.A.
    Posts
    185

    Default

    I wish I could remember where I read it, but it said that the majority of on-the-job firefighter injuries occurred with firefighters with five years or less experience.

    The pups might try listening to the vets and learn something that will keep them safe.

    I think the pups have a "That'll never happen to me" attitude.

    They claim to know everything and know very little. Simple things like the location of the priming resevoir on the engine. They'll claim they checked the level, but can't point out the resevoir to you when you ask. Or the pup who works in the station with the SCBA fill station who cannot fill SCBA bottles. Why is it that the new guy is always the one who's SCBA mask has problems?

    I think the only thing the pups are great at is running their mouths.

    joejoe33

    Comments and opinions are mine and do not represent the agency or IAFF local that I am affiliated with.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber CJMinick390's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Sitting on my Laa Laa waiting for my Yaa Yaa
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Pretty much mirrors my experience. It's interesting that the problem exists in both the career and volunteer settings. I know there are several guys that I'm definitely leary of right now. Hope we don't catch any daytime "workers" for awhile, because I'll most likely be riding the back with one or more of them, and I don't want to have to babysit on a serious call when I know it's going to take awhile to get supplemented with mutual aid to free up our officer and get some additional experienced folks on scene.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts