Thread: Bairds sentence

  1. #26
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    Default I'm going to wait to hear more......

    Originally posted by Chief Reason
    He can never be a firefighter again; my personal favorite.
    There seems to be a slight discrepancy on this issue. The Associated Press copy states that...
    Dwyer also ordered Baird to perform 100 hours of community
    service and barred him from involvement with any fire departments
    during his probation.
    If this is true....It would seem that after five years...this felon would be able to serve as a firefighter again.

    I'm disappointed by the sentence, thinking it would have been much harsher. I am awaiting further details, like a transcript, before I comment further.
    Last edited by NJFFSA16; 07-09-2002 at 07:44 AM.
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    He's lucky that all he got was 75 days in jail, it could have been much worse.
    As far as adopting NFPA standards in New York state and Oneida County,
    be careful what you wish for. There is a lot more to the standards than just what is written in them about conducting live burns.

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    As far as adopting NFPA standards in New York state and Oneida County, be careful what you wish for. There is a lot more to the standards than just what is written in them about conducting live burns
    and this is a bad thing...how?

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    Two things before I move on:

    First-

    "There are no winners in this situation," said Bill Vineall, "No matter what side you're on there's plenty of blame to go around"
    Huh? How is the Golden family to blame? Something tells me that this statement was taken out of context, because I don't see how the victim or his family is to blame for any of this.

    Second-

    As far as adopting NFPA standards in New York state and Oneida County,
    be careful what you wish for. There is a lot more to the standards than just what is written in them about conducting live burns.

    It's just this type of mentality that is keeping the fire service back. I guess you don't agree with making things safer and more professional. Ahhhh- I'm wasting my breath here anymore- it's the same thing from the same people over and over. Good luck everyone- I can't take this thread anymore....
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    Originally posted by FFMike9
    He's lucky that all he got was 75 days in jail, it could have been much worse.
    As far as adopting NFPA standards in New York state and Oneida County,
    be careful what you wish for. There is a lot more to the standards than just what is written in them about conducting live burns.
    He must be lamenting the fact that under the NFPA 1403 guidelines for live burns....

    "the good old boy, we've always done it this way, big city firefighters don't know how we operate, let's show these rookies some real fire" mentality will be banned....

    and that's a good thing!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-09-2002 at 11:47 AM.
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    Like so many of us, I have been following on this one (well since I got home from fighting the "Big Fight" in the Arabian Gulf).

    I will admit to being more than a little dismayed in some respects regarding the sentencing. Being an Army Geek, I have seen two different standards of "jail time". There is the Military version, where 75 days in the "can" is a long long haul, and anyone who has done time there knows this better than I hope ever to know. The civilian version typically includes regular television, outside visitors and a list of other amenities that the Army just doesn't recognize.

    Something else that I picked up on when I read the FH.com report on the Homepage:

    "Alan Baird III, 30, of Westmoreland, was given five years'
    probation by Oneida County Judge Michael Dwyer, who ordered Baird
    to serve the first 75 days in the county jail.
    Dwyer also ordered Baird to perform 100 hours of community
    service and barred him from involvement with any fire departments
    during his probation.


    "Barred him from involvement with any fire departments DURING HIS PROBABTION." I guess that means he can re-apply at the end of his term...?? But will he?

    And lastly, "You were there. You should have known better," Dwyer said. Golden's stepsister, Amberley Roberts, who asked Dwyer to impose the maximum sentence of four years in prison, said the family was comfortable with the outcome. "I really liked what he (Dwyer) had to say," Roberts said. "We had hoped for more, but we're satisfied." For the rest of us, I guess this is the answer from the Family about their satisfaction regarding the outcome. I would like to hear from Christine or anyone else from the Golden Family to hear their version of events, and how they feel as a group about the outcome. Based on the above statement from Amberley, if the Family accepts this verdict and punishment, then like it or not, the rest of us should stand in support to their thoughts and feelings on this one. We don't have to like it, we just have to accept it.
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  7. #32
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    Question Satisfaction

    If the family of Firefighter Golden is satisfied then as the wise Chief Reason said, "We must be also."

    That does not have to mean that we agree with it.

    But, we need to move on and hope and pray that this is a lesson that will be learned across the nation and throughout the world. What is the lesson? Well, it would seem to me that the lesson is that training is important, standards for officers is important, proper technique is important in training, following accepted standards is important. All of these are paramount in the crusade to eliminate firefighter deaths in the world. To conduct impromptu, off the cuff live burns with inexperienced people in key positions and using live "victims" (Firefighter Golden was indeed a true victim) and untrained personnel in inappropriate positions is unacceptable. We count only the fatalities nationwide. What would the number be in the world?

    I challenge everyone on this forum to never forget this incident, just as we will never forget 09-11. Any death is tragic and one that occurs under these conditions is outrageous.

    So...Yes...we all agree that we disagree with the sentence. But what can we do? The Golden's are at peace with it (or so it seems) so we must be too. Now we need to educate everyone so this does not repeat. I am sure the potential for it to happen again is out there daily.

    Next we need to be concerned that the Governor may take the petition we hear about and do something with it. We can only hope he files it in the round file. For him to grant the petition is a slap in the face of all firefighters and a poor tribute to those 343 brothers from 09-11 that he seemed so genuinely concerned about.

    Lastly we can only hope that NO FIRE DEPARTMENT in their right mind will accept the idiot Alan Baird III in it's rank and file. To do so is to say that they condone his actions. Of course he will re-apply. As far as he is concerned he has done no wrong. I would wager that the Lairdsvill department (or so it seems) will take him back with open arms when his probation is over.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    I checked out the application for my FD resently, and found that that it asks nothing about "Have you ever been convicted of a feloney?" I was also told that the only criminal thing they can be given info on pertains to arson convictions. I would not be suprised if the Lairdsville FD took him back, as it seems that they supported him all along.

    Malahat Two-7 I cant say I know about a stay in the brig but i had a friend do time at a county facility. Here in Saratoga County, just north of Albany,NY, yes they have a community TV but it only got the local stations. The biggest thing they fight is boredom. As for visitors 1 hr 2 days a week. The only ones that I know could visit other times were his lawyer and his pastor.

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    Default Some Random Observations

    [list=1][*]Many of us challenged Laird's lawyer, Bob Moran, to explain why Laird would be better offf rejecting the plea bargain & going to trial. Well, Laird was convicted of what he would have pled to, but got a lesser sentence than the plea bargain. Guess Moran, despite the offensive things he said about volunteers, knows the local courts. @#$%![*]When will the rest of the bunch that contributed to this fatality be held accountable? The prosecutor hasn't said word one about this. The chief was even given immunity. This doesn't seem like justice. Maybe the civil process will do something, but I had hoped for more criminal charges.[*]We struggle with having sufficient training requirements for firefighters, esp. volunteers. But,there's no requirements for officers, at least in Ohio, beyond what a department may set. We're just not ensuring those of us who lead companies or run scenes are ready to do it safely. How are we going to fix that?[/list=1]
    Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

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    Angry

    I think it's a sad day when we have firefighter's like ourselves bashing another brother firefighter. This was nothing more than an accident and someone was killed. That is a tragedy in it self no doubt, and all I have seen is why didn't he get more time or what a slap on the wrist? Do you really think that he intended this to happen? Do you think he will forget that someone died in a training he was conducting? How is this differant from anyone of us going into a burning structure looking for pets and having the roof cave in and killing a firefighter? Should we not be looking at ways to fix the problem instead of trying to justify a judges ruling?
    It is my belief that something went terribly wrong and cost a firefighter his life, but I will not pass judgment on someone who was training someone to save lives and an accident happened and cost a life. Why? Because we are going to be here doing the same thing again and again and again until someone thinks of a way to fix the problem. Mr. Baird was given a life sentence the minute Bradley Golden died. He has to live with that forever. These are my thoughts only.

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    This whole situation makes me sick to my stomach. It is clear that this officer had no grasp of his job or safety issues surrounding live burns. Regardless of career or volunteer, if you are going to promote, be appointed, or elected to an officer's position, putting others lives in your hands, you had better know the job and constantly attempt to grow with the position of responsibility, or accept not only personnal consequences, but consequences to the firefighters under your command. I hope if I ever make a decision that costly that it is my body that's dragged out rather than one of my own.
    Make your weaknesses your strengths

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    Default Warning...Gonzo's gone to rant mode again!

    Originally posted by Station 2 EFD
    I think it's a sad day when we have firefighter's like ourselves bashing another brother firefighter. This was nothing more than an accident and someone was killed. That is a tragedy in it self no doubt, and all I have seen is why didn't he get more time or what a slap on the wrist? Do you really think that he intended this to happen? Do you think he will forget that someone died in a training he was conducting? How is this differant from anyone of us going into a burning structure looking for pets and having the roof cave in and killing a firefighter? Should we not be looking at ways to fix the problem instead of trying to justify a judges ruling?
    It is my belief that something went terribly wrong and cost a firefighter his life, but I will not pass judgment on someone who was training someone to save lives and an accident happened and cost a life. Why? Because we are going to be here doing the same thing again and again and again until someone thinks of a way to fix the problem. Mr. Baird was given a life sentence the minute Bradley Golden died. He has to live with that forever. These are my thoughts only.
    Unbelieveable!

    When are people who have not followed this incident and posting based on what they saw on the home page going to wake up and smell the coffee?
    Do your self a favor and click on the link from the home page of firehouse.com, which has the entire story of the incident, threads form the forums, the trial and the links to the local newspaper, the Utica Observer/Dispatch.

    This was no accident! This was no accident! This was no accident!
    It was a charlie foxtrot from the beginning, violating every safety rule in reference to live burn evolutions....Alan Baird a "Chief Officer with 12 years experience" had no plan for how the drill was to be run, no plan B if the scat hit the fan, live victims placed above a fire, a fire set on the first floor that blocked the only means of escape, no hose lines in place, no ground ladders for emergency egress and placing a probie with no training in SCBA and putting him in harm's way.

    Alan Baird's defense went from ignorance of the standards to not being able to afford a copy of the standards (a whopping $27!) to blaming others and ultimately blaming Bradley Golden for causing his own death.

    We are not "bashing a brother"....Alan Baird gave up his right to be called "brother" the moment he made the decision to light the fire on the couch that caused Brad Golden's death.

    You want to give Alan Baird sympathy. That's not going to fix the problem. Part of the problem would have been fixed if Baird got the maximum jail time..it would have sent a message.

    The problem will be fixed when those who take the title of training officer, Firefighter, Lieutenant, Captain, District Chief, Battalion Chief, Assistant Chief, Deputy Chief and Chief of Department accept the responsibility for the safety of their personnel and follow the standards for live fire training. There are some things that are beyond anyone's control, but it is the responsibility of those in charge to make sure that they do their best to insure the safety of the personnel under their command!

    The problem will be fixed when a firefighter candidate passes a background check and a psychological profile and is accepted based on not who they know, how long they have lived in the community, where they are origianally from, race, gender or creed but by his/her qualifications to do the job.

    The problem will be fixed when the firefighter candidate as well as the entire department get the proper training for the job that they have to do and any situation that they may encounter as part of the job.

    The problem will be fixed by promoting the best qualified personnel to positions of responsibilty, based on testing, experience and education, not on relations and/or popularity.

    The problem will be solved when those charged with leading their departments and training their personnel follow the standards for live fire training to the letter.

    The problem will be solved when those who feel that this was an accident get their heads out of their rectums and realize just what happened in Lairdsville and join the rest of us to say this must never happen again!!!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-09-2002 at 08:48 PM.
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    President Gonzo:
    Thanks for allowing me to save my breath! Amazing, isn't it? How these new posters will jump right in without searching for the facts?
    I got nauseated when I read Station 2 EFD's post.
    You covered well.
    Thank you.

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    Station 2 EFD, you fail to mention where you are from but I'm willing to bet it's in NY.

    "How is this differant from anyone of us going into a burning structure looking for pets and having the roof cave in and killing a firefighter? "

    First and foremost, if an Officer is sending firefighters into a structure in imminent danger of collapse to search for animals then I will be the first to scream for their head too

    To reiterate what Captain Gonzo, as well as everyone else with any sense has said THIS WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT!!!!!!!!!

    A court of law, a jury of his peers have convicted this man of CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE, not accidental death, not ooooooops I did a boo boo. How much clearer does it need to be made for you?

    Could it be that you fear the legal precedent that this sets? That the good ol' boys training club is being threatened by being held accountable? Get used to it, if we have our way it's going to happen more and more.

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    LadyCapn:
    Amen! What these newbies to these posts don't understand or are unwilling to accept is that this wasn't an accident but a CRIMINAL ACT.
    Oh, and I will throw my "I told you so" in here and say that I bet in a previous post that the ignorant mope would appeal. He is!
    Isn't the American judicial system great?
    If his sentence had been any lighter, he would have floated out of that courtroom! Yuck!
    And to the poster who said that Alan Baird got a life sentence when Bradley Golden died on Sept. 25th; just what did Bradley Golden get?
    I mean, besides the death sentence imposed by Alan Baird III?
    Alan Baird III may have been YOUR brother, but he certainly wasn't mine or anyone else who sees this tragedy for what it really is.
    Alan Baird III was not persecuted; he was prosecuted. Learn the difference. Know the difference.
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    I think I got the answer to my question through the news reports. Baird should be doing the full 75 days in. Don't count Moran as too much of a genius. On a 6 month jail sentence, he would not have done much more than 75 days in. Moran also exposed alot of information to the civil lawyers than would have been exposed in a plea deal. Bottom line is Moran made apoor tactical decision, made a good buck for himself, got himself some publicity and hung old Mr. Baird out to dry. A man would come on here and apologize for the all the horrible things he said to people here. But my bet is he won't.

    I agree that he should have received the maximum sentence. But, in fairness to the Judge, a person with no criminal history getting the maximum sentence is almost a certainty to be overturned on appeal.

    It is distressing, however, that it sertainly does appear that Baird will be banned from the fire service for only those five years he is on probation. If anyone has inside info that can clear this up, I would appreciate it.

    After reading the posts from the people in that area, I think that we should all reserve 15 minutes each week to pray for the brothers and sisters in Central NY. Seriously. It sounds as though the archaic system that perpetuates itself in that area is bound to kill more fire fighters. "If God is for us, who can be against us?"

    Oh yeah, a message for Mr Moran:

    THE FAT LADY IS SINGING HER BUTT OFF!

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    Angry

    Oneida County Judge Michael Dwyer
    (Speaking to Alan Baird III)
    "This was not an accident. An accident is something
    unavoidable. This was a series of bad decisions
    that you should not have made."
    As I have previously noted, Mr. Baird had no plan, no clue and absolutely no common sense when he conducted this live burn. His decisions and his actions caused Brad Golden's death. This tragedy was UNNECESSARY AND PREVENTABLE! I also believe that others should have been charged here...but that didn't happen.

    God help the firefighters of Lairdsville!


    Last edited by NJFFSA16; 07-10-2002 at 01:39 AM.
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    Its been said before.....

    That picture says it all.

    Dave

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    Unhappy

    After reading the entire story of what happened, I must tell everyone that my last post was uncalled for and unjustified. I agree with everyone's thoughts that this was no accident. I will still challange all of us to fix whatever we need to fix so that this can never happen again. It was not my intent to give Baird sympathy and to lighten the fact that Brad Golden lost his life for no reason. My thoughts at the time were to not focus on the "light" sentence Baird got, but to find ways we can make this job safer. Let's face it, there are more Alan Baird's out there. After reading the entire story with all the facts, this is a real eye opener for myself. I jumped the gun with the statements in my previous post and that will never happen again.

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    Glad to hear Station 2EFD changed his mind after educating himself. And let's not assume that all the brothers and sisters in that area are so out of touch. I came from upstate NY and 15 years ago we knew better. This is a sad example of a department with it's head buried in the sand..or in the dirt on Bradley Golden's grave as the case may be.
    Susan Lounsbury
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    Captain (President) Gonzo, George Wendt, Chief Reason....I join in your ranks and echo all of what you said. We have to now include NJFFS_A16 in our circle...

    Yes...The ##$#@$ picture does say it all. In that picture he is mocking all of us.

    Station 2EFD.....we understand your retraction...but you can not come on here brand new and starting slamming us around before you "do your homework" (as I tell my kids). We have followed this story and exchanged information back and forth with each other since day one. There are several other threads on this story. Perhaps you should do a search and read em all. Then you will have the real idea of what is going on.

    It was not an accident plain and simple. As the judge said, "an accident is unavoidable."

    This was a homicide plain and simple!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    OK, maybe somebody can tell me about something I've been wondering all along... if this Baird character was an Assistant Chief, why didn't the Chief step up and take some heat for the way he's running his Department. If they've been training in a criminally negligent manner, the Chief is ultimately responsible, any first hand answers?
    Chief Frank Rizzio
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    I think we need to put a requirement on here that before you post, you read the whole scenario (we need a smiley for "tongue-in-cheek).

    I can understand some of these new posters coming in and thinking it's a slam session, but hopefully people will go back and read the entire story before writing us off as a lynch mob.
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    FSRIZZIO - Chief Kimball got immunity for his testimony. We are all wondering why...

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    Default Real or Training: shoud it matter?

    I think any failure to follow complete, proper and correct procedures is justification for convicting anyone of a criminal act.

    However, where do we draw the line on what standards we follow and when we follow them? Do these same standards matter whether the situation is real or training? Read the NIOSH reports of firefighter fatalities over the past 10 years and you will see contributing factors identified: lack of accountability, lack of command, failure to follow NFPA standards, poor judgment, etc. These are the same issues cited in this case.

    Should those in charge of actual incidents where these standards are not followed and someone dies be held to the same standard as the defendant in this case? Using even basic risk management practices would (or should) eliminate firefighter deaths at incidents where no civilian lives are in jeopardy.

    This case should be a wakeup call to anyone who is in a position to make decisions on the fireground. Either follow the industry standards or be prepared to face the consequences. No excuses.

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