I think I got the answer to my question through the news reports. Baird should be doing the full 75 days in. Don't count Moran as too much of a genius. On a 6 month jail sentence, he would not have done much more than 75 days in. Moran also exposed alot of information to the civil lawyers than would have been exposed in a plea deal. Bottom line is Moran made apoor tactical decision, made a good buck for himself, got himself some publicity and hung old Mr. Baird out to dry. A man would come on here and apologize for the all the horrible things he said to people here. But my bet is he won't.
I agree that he should have received the maximum sentence. But, in fairness to the Judge, a person with no criminal history getting the maximum sentence is almost a certainty to be overturned on appeal.
It is distressing, however, that it sertainly does appear that Baird will be banned from the fire service for only those five years he is on probation. If anyone has inside info that can clear this up, I would appreciate it.
After reading the posts from the people in that area, I think that we should all reserve 15 minutes each week to pray for the brothers and sisters in Central NY. Seriously. It sounds as though the archaic system that perpetuates itself in that area is bound to kill more fire fighters. "If God is for us, who can be against us?"
Oh yeah, a message for Mr Moran:
THE FAT LADY IS SINGING HER BUTT OFF!
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Thread: Bairds sentence
07-10-2002, 12:05 AM #41
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Flanders, NJ
07-10-2002, 01:35 AM #42Oneida County Judge Michael Dwyer
(Speaking to Alan Baird III)
"This was not an accident. An accident is something
unavoidable. This was a series of bad decisions
that you should not have made."
God help the firefighters of Lairdsville!
Last edited by NJFFSA16; 07-10-2002 at 01:39 AM.Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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07-10-2002, 06:30 AM #43
- Join Date
- Jan 1999
Its been said before.....
That picture says it all.
07-10-2002, 07:47 AM #44
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
After reading the entire story of what happened, I must tell everyone that my last post was uncalled for and unjustified. I agree with everyone's thoughts that this was no accident. I will still challange all of us to fix whatever we need to fix so that this can never happen again. It was not my intent to give Baird sympathy and to lighten the fact that Brad Golden lost his life for no reason. My thoughts at the time were to not focus on the "light" sentence Baird got, but to find ways we can make this job safer. Let's face it, there are more Alan Baird's out there. After reading the entire story with all the facts, this is a real eye opener for myself. I jumped the gun with the statements in my previous post and that will never happen again.
07-10-2002, 08:31 AM #45
Glad to hear Station 2EFD changed his mind after educating himself. And let's not assume that all the brothers and sisters in that area are so out of touch. I came from upstate NY and 15 years ago we knew better. This is a sad example of a department with it's head buried in the sand..or in the dirt on Bradley Golden's grave as the case may be.Susan Lounsbury
Winston-Salem Rescue Squad
Griffith Volunteer FD
07-10-2002, 08:39 AM #46
Captain (President) Gonzo, George Wendt, Chief Reason....I join in your ranks and echo all of what you said. We have to now include NJFFS_A16 in our circle...
Yes...The ##$#@$ picture does say it all. In that picture he is mocking all of us.
Station 2EFD.....we understand your retraction...but you can not come on here brand new and starting slamming us around before you "do your homework" (as I tell my kids). We have followed this story and exchanged information back and forth with each other since day one. There are several other threads on this story. Perhaps you should do a search and read em all. Then you will have the real idea of what is going on.
It was not an accident plain and simple. As the judge said, "an accident is unavoidable."
This was a homicide plain and simple!09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
"Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.
07-10-2002, 08:41 AM #47
- Join Date
- Dec 1998
- Pea Ridge, Arkansas
OK, maybe somebody can tell me about something I've been wondering all along... if this Baird character was an Assistant Chief, why didn't the Chief step up and take some heat for the way he's running his Department. If they've been training in a criminally negligent manner, the Chief is ultimately responsible, any first hand answers?Chief Frank Rizzio
Pea Ridge Fire Dept.
Pea Ridge AR. 72751
07-10-2002, 08:41 AM #48
I think we need to put a requirement on here that before you post, you read the whole scenario (we need a smiley for "tongue-in-cheek).
I can understand some of these new posters coming in and thinking it's a slam session, but hopefully people will go back and read the entire story before writing us off as a lynch mob.Michael "Mick" Mayers
Acting Director, Urban Search and Rescue
South Carolina Emergency Response Task Force
07-10-2002, 09:16 AM #49
FSRIZZIO - Chief Kimball got immunity for his testimony. We are all wondering why...
07-10-2002, 11:32 AM #50
- Join Date
- Jul 2000
- Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Real or Training: shoud it matter?
I think any failure to follow complete, proper and correct procedures is justification for convicting anyone of a criminal act.
However, where do we draw the line on what standards we follow and when we follow them? Do these same standards matter whether the situation is real or training? Read the NIOSH reports of firefighter fatalities over the past 10 years and you will see contributing factors identified: lack of accountability, lack of command, failure to follow NFPA standards, poor judgment, etc. These are the same issues cited in this case.
Should those in charge of actual incidents where these standards are not followed and someone dies be held to the same standard as the defendant in this case? Using even basic risk management practices would (or should) eliminate firefighter deaths at incidents where no civilian lives are in jeopardy.
This case should be a wakeup call to anyone who is in a position to make decisions on the fireground. Either follow the industry standards or be prepared to face the consequences. No excuses.
07-10-2002, 12:29 PM #51
- Join Date
- Mar 2002
- Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
Station 2, thank you for your candor in this, and for taking the time to do a little background checking.
The question of why the Chief was provided with immunity and has not spoken out on this issue is a sore spot with all of us. We still don't have any straight answers on that issue. Likely as not, we never will either. (lots of head shaking here).
As for making sure this never happens again, well that basically comes down to each and everyone of us who have been following this particular story, and have been a part of these forums in general. We have seen what has happened, and cried out that it must never happen again.
I wonder who will be the Guiding Light? NFPA, NIOSH, WCB (for the Canadians)... OR will it be each and every one of us? I can say for myself, now that I am more aware than ever both from the regulations point of view (I have learned one hell of a lot from this) and from a safety point of view, I will do my part in my little neck of the woods to try to prevent an incident like this from happening. On that thought, I would ask that each and everyone of you who have read this story do the same. We can't save the entire world as an individual, but we sure's hell can do a lot as a group. PLAY SAFE, STAY SAFE, BE SAFE.If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)
"I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD
"Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)
Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!
impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto
IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.
07-10-2002, 12:52 PM #52
- Join Date
- Aug 2000
- Remsen, NY
To BONES and truck6alpha
I think that you misunderstood me.
I am by no means against NFPA standards, but I feel that there may be quite a few departments in New York State that may not be able to comply with them, due to monetary constraints. Quite honestly there are some departments that can't even afford to purchase a set of the complete standards.
The problem I have with NFPA is that I don't feel that a private organization should be able to write standards that affect municipal departments and charge for them.
And yes I do realize that the committees that write the standards are made up members of fire departments both paid and unpaid, and other industry professionals.
I feel that perhaps the standards should be adopted by the USFA and issued to all departments in the country not just New York, since I'm sure that the same type of problems exist elsehwere in this country.
The standards are excellent and it might not be a bad thing to adopt them.
07-10-2002, 01:48 PM #53
- Join Date
- Nov 2001
Please bear with me here as I muse and pardon my ignorance on how individual states work.
My first question of coarse would be......
Where are all those threatening to walk out unless their Departments or States adopt and adhere to NFPA standards? We had a large contingent threatening to leave if Baird was sentenced to jail time, but none are willing to leave over blantant disregard for their safety or their lives.......interesting isn't it?
Now, here comes the ignorance part. Here in Ontario we are not allowed to "start up" or "found" a Fire Dept on our own. Any Municipal fire department in the province is subject to the Fire Protection and Prevention Act. Standards exist for Company Officers, Chief Officers, Fire Prevention Officers and Firefighters. All firefighters, officers etc are expected to adhere to these standards whether they are volunteer or career. We have a very strong OHSA and Ministry of Labour, who will ORDER equipment or training if such is required to do your job safely. Municipalities are then obligated to fund said training/equipment.
So please forgive me if I fail to fully comprehend some of the issues that you face.
- numerous "independant" Fire Dept's that operate on little or no funding
- all equipment needs are met through fundraising within the community
- those who are funded appear to be grossly underfunded in some circumstances
- Fire Commisioners that are unwilling/unable to provided adequate funding for training or health and safety issues
- no standards exist at either the state or individual levels
-Departments that operate with little training and at times inadequate or non existant PPE
Now, please don't take this the wrong way, I am really trying to understand here.
- If my Community was not interested in ensuring I was adequately protected while fighting fires in THEIR homes, and protecting THEIR lives and property, why am I doing it?
- If I do not have adequate training/equipment, why in GODS name am I doing interior attacks and search and rescue?
- if I am willing to "walk out" because a CRIMINAL may have to be incarcerated for their crime, why would I not be willing to withhold service in order to demand adequate protection for my life and those who fight beside me?
- IF we accept funding from our State, Municipality or even the community, are we willing to be accountable for how that money is spent? Are we willing to provide documentation that money was spent appropriately, that training was provided as required etc?
- Are we willing to forgoe the fancy toys for one more year in order to focus this years budget on health and safety issues?
Seriously, please educate me on these issues as I find I'm having a very very hard time understanding.
Last edited by LadyCapn; 07-10-2002 at 01:51 PM.
07-10-2002, 01:59 PM #54
FFMike9, there is no need to purchase the complete set of standards as that would be more information than anyone would ever need or want to know. Go through the catalog and purchase what is related to what you do. Most of the books are around $20-$30 and if need be, get the few that they can afford this year and buy some more next year and so on. No one can be expected to adopt the standards and meet them overnight, but to start trying is a step in the right direction. I don't know your department, but you may be closer to the standards than you think. Don't wait for NY to adopt them or not, have your company/department do it. I would suggest starting with 1710 and/or 1720. Buying the books may not be the big expense, training might be. I also would like to see the books offered at no charge, but NFPA is a business, and I don't see that happening. Try local libraries and municipal offices, they sometimes have copies that can be borrowed. Challenge your company/department to improve itself. If you already meet the standards, congratulations, but keep trying to improve and learn. NY is far from the only area with problems like this but NY was brought to center stage by the Lairdsville fiasco. We can only hope to learn from it.
07-10-2002, 08:55 PM #55
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
- FT. Drum NY>
i think that he should not serve in a chief position again but should not be setensed to any jail time at all it was a misatke that took a life but the volunteer departments in ny are hurting for people who are dedicated to the volunteer service i feel for the family but also for mr baird he has also been through hell these past monts all this is just an opinion and should only be taken as such
07-10-2002, 09:16 PM #56
- Join Date
- Jan 1999
Re: bairdOriginally posted by jjrussell i think that he should not serve in a chief position again but should not be setensed to any jail time at all it was a misatke that took a life
Originally posted by jjrussell but the volunteer departments in ny are hurting for people who are dedicated to the volunteer service
Originally posted by jjrussell i feel for the family but also for mr baird he has also been through hell these past monts
Originally posted by jjrussell all this is just an opinion and should only be taken as such
Last edited by hfd66truck; 07-10-2002 at 09:19 PM.
07-10-2002, 09:18 PM #57
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
I would just like to say that obviously most of you don't know Alan, and don't know what kind of person he is. I have know him and his wife for 12 years. I met them through the fire department ironically enough. There were definitely mistakes made and very bad judgements, but he should't take the fall all alone. What about the Westmoreland cheif? If you know anything about the Westmoreland, Lairdsville and Lowell territories you would know that Westmoreland is the higher ranking fire company so when a chief from Westmoreland is on a scene they outrank a chief from Lairdsville or Lowell. What about the so-called "safety officer" that was upstairs?? Why would anyone in their right minds allow a 19 or 20 year old to be a safety officer anyway? Of course I suppose when daddy is the chief he can allow whoever he wants to be the safety officer. They all knew what was going on and what was going to happen. How about the fact that the safety officer had lighter fluid upstairs to light the burn barrel that was upstairs?? Yes, Alan is my friend but that doesn't mean that I think he did nothing wrong. Unlike all of you I just recognize the fact that he did NOT ACT ALONE and he was NOT THE HIGHEST RANKING OFFICER THERE.
07-10-2002, 09:22 PM #58
- Join Date
- Jan 1999
You must have posted at the same time as I did. I agree that more people should be taking the fall. Unfortunately everyone else hid under the "immunity blanket".
07-10-2002, 09:39 PM #59
- Join Date
- Feb 2001
- Illinois-where pertnear is close enough!
Station 2 EFD;
You showed real character for: going back, getting the facts of the case and coming back and admitting some errors in your reasoning. I agree with alot of what you said in your LAST post. I had obvious differences with your first post.
IMACOJ and proud of it.
07-11-2002, 12:01 AM #60
Your friend Alan did something horribly wrong. You are right in stating we do not know him personally, however, as professional career, paid call and volunteer firefighters we have all seen his attitude before in countless others..the difference here is his attitude caused the death of someone he was sworn to protect.
Those that hid under the "immunity blanket" to avoid criminal prosecution will not be able to hide when the "civil trial, wrongful death lawsuit" spotlight gets placed upon them.
I have ranted over and over about new members of the forums looking at the headline and basing their opinion on what they saw on firehouse.com or what they read in the Utica Daily Observer for the first time. Do yourself a favor, go to the story, click onthe archives and read the entire story...then come back and tell us if you feel the same way.
Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-11-2002 at 08:04 AM."The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
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