Thread: Bairds sentence

  1. #76
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    Default Not exactly "satisfied"

    I want to let everyone know the Golden family appreciates
    all the kind words of support from you folks. Christine Golden
    is in the process of getting her computer internet back in
    order and plans on posting on this forum sometime this coming weekend.
    I am going to let her convey the feelings of the
    Goldens regarding the sentencing.



    Thank You All,

    Greg Golden

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    Default Educating our own

    The problem with ignorant live fire instructors is not confined to New York and not a sole problem with volunteers.

    I was on a panel interviewing firefighters who wanted to become part-time fire instructors for the state. Virginia is one of the charter NFPA Pro-Board states.

    The candidates were experienced local fire instructors certified to the Fire Instructor III level. Most of the candidates had more than three years experience as a local fire instructor and attended at least one state-mandated instructor in-service since they were originally certified. Live fire training has been a mandatory in-service topic.

    OVER HALF of the candidates could NOT identify NFPA 1403 or describe how they would set up a live fire training scenario as a lead instructor.

    This was an unexpected development . . . I was most concerned with the candidate who was a career company officer in a moderately sized department who has "run" a half-dozen live fire exercises in his jurisdiction without a clue about 1403. The ones that did not know the 1403 answer failed the interview.

    The only comfort was that the other half knew the standard VERY well and demonstrated that they had experience in running a 1403 compliant live fire training event.

    Fire cares less if you are paid, volunteer, smart or stupid. We gotta get everyone on board!

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Ward; 07-11-2002 at 10:22 PM.

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    Mike,

    You said it brother. This problem goes far beyond upstate New York. There are a lot of people out there who need to be educated on these issues. I have heard a number of folks say that if you follow 1403, you can't really get "good" fires and a realistic training scenario. There are still guys out there who think that you have to get people "sunburned" in a house burning or it wasn't hot enough. I agree that the training has to be realistic to be valuable and to evaluate how your trainee will respond to a real fire situation. However, it is never acceptable to develop the attitude that "people get hurt in training because that's the price you pay for realism."
    Just my $0.02
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

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  4. #79
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    Unhappy Re: Not exactly "satisfied"

    Originally posted by Greg Golden
    I want to let everyone know the Golden family appreciates
    all the kind words of support from you folks.
    Greg Golden
    Greg....I'm sure by now, you know that many of us are extremely unsatisfied with this outcome. I wish the sentence had been harsher.

    I also feel that this man should never don the gear of a firefighter again...as long as he lives. As I interpret the sentence...he would be able to affiliate again after the probation, and that is just unacceptable to me.

    Please convey my best wishes, thoughts and prayers to Christine and the entire Golden family! You have my complete support!

    Ed Seifert
    NJFFS A16
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    Originally posted by bfdr1
    Al Baird screw-up bad. But Judge Dwyer said he made some bad decisions which is true and he should pay for those mistakes. But I have seen a lot of Judges make bad decisions and do they pay for there mistakes??? NEVER
    We're talking apples and oranges here. Baird's mistakes, for lack of a better word, caused the death of one of our brothers.

    I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make, in regard to Judges paying for mistakes.
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  6. #81
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    Question

    I posted this question on the other Baird thread but will do so here too.

    If he is an EMT by profession (heaven help us) how can he do his job once he gets out of jail. Don't most EMTs interact in some way with Fire Departments, even private ambulance services. What if he is working and has to repsond to a fire where a firefighter is injured?

    How does the fact that he is a felon impact his future in emergency services? If you are a felon in Virginia, I think the department of health will not allow you to be an EMT or Paramedic and I also think if you become one while certified that you could lose the certification. Is that true? (I am not sure) Do other states have that rule?

    It would be nice if we could get the NY Government to pass legislation that does not allow convicted felons to be in the fire or ems field at all.

    NJFFS_A16.... you are the man!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  7. #82
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    Brother Ward... I hear you and echo your thoughts and feel your frustrations in that process. Nice to see you on here. Keep hammering away...and drop me an email. Would love to chat.

    On another thread the question about Baird's certification (See Baird Guilty)was answered. But the code section contains those scary words. I cut and pasted the response here and some additional information I stumbled on last night watching the news here locally.

    __________________________________________________ ___
    The Answer:
    NY State EMT Regs
    In response to if Mr. Baird can continue to be a NY State EMT.

    800.16 SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF CERTIFICATION

    Any certification issued pursuant to this Part may be suspended for a fixed period, revoked or annulled, or the certificate holder may be censured, reprimanded, or fined in accordance with section 12 of the Public Health Law, after a hearing conducted pursuant to section 12-a of the Public Health Law, the department determines that the certificate holder:

    (a)has failed to comply with the requirements of section 800.15 of this Part;

    (b)has been found guilty of either fraud, deceit, incompetence, patient abuse, theft, or dishonesty in the performance of the certificant's duties and practice;

    (c)has been found guilty of fraud or deceit in the procuring of certification;

    (d)has been convicted of any crime or crimes related to murder, manslaughter, assault, sexual abuse, theft, robbery, drug abuse or sale of drugs unless the department finds that such conviction or charges do not demonstrate a present risk or danger to patients;

    (e)has provided patient care or driven an ambulance or other emergency medical services response vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or any other drug affecting physical coordination or intellectual functions;

    (f)has knowingly aided or abetted another in practice as an emergency medical technician who is not certified as such; or

    (g)has held him or herself out as being certified at a higher level than actually certified, or has used skills restricted to individuals holding a higher level of certification.

    This is from the NY State Emergency Medical Code.
    __________________________________________________ ___________

    My response:
    If you read the regulations carefully they say:
    "
    may be suspended for a fixed period, revoked or annulled,
    The key word here being "MAY". It appears it is not an automatic thing. So who can we petition to have it removed. It seems from that verbage that it does not automatically happen.

    Now...here is what I learned last night from watching the local news.

    When a person (at least in Florida) is convicted of a felony they do lose all those civil rights as mentioned previously in this thread. However, they are only suspended during the "length of the sentence including probation". At the end of that time the person can apply to have them restored. Taking it one step further...the state of Florida now makes that application/petition automatically for the person at the end of their prescribed sentence.

    I was speechless as I watched that. Do all states do this? If so that means after 5 years Baird will most likely get all his rights back because he is a "first time offender. "
    may be suspended for a fixed period, revoked or annulled,
    Last edited by captstanm1; 07-13-2002 at 10:57 AM.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    captstanm1 - I would think that if his EMT cert. is suspended during probation he would have to get re-certed as his cert would have expired during the probation. They are for only 3 years here in NY.

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    Deputy387:
    So you have seen this guy in the jail already? I was under the impression that he was appealing his case? Why is he in the jail? Doesn't he stay out until the appeal is heard?
    Maybe he has a book deal or one of the tabloid shows has contacted him. I am sure that he believes that he is a celebrity. You know; kinda like Anna Nicole Smith; only prettier.
    Let me know; I'd like to send something to help him pass the time.
    IMACOJ; you can't be a convicted felon and be a member of the IACOJ!

  10. #85
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    But how does the Department of Health know he is convicted and who decides if it "may be suspended"?????
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    Cocky and arrogant? Somehow I expected that from the

    "Bairdman of Alcatraz"!

    I better stop before I post something harsh...and get banned by the webteam.

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    Stan,How about we E-mail the NY "minister of health"and express our humble opinions.T.C.

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    Well...that sounds like a good idea Rescue101. All I need is the email address.

    Far be it from me to pass up an opportunity to pass an opinion!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  14. #89
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    Default Sentence

    Chief Reason,

    He came to jail immediately following his sentencing. He has to do 75 days but if you count good time he will do about 45.

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    Deputy

    You are kidding right? They wouldn't REALLY consider giving him time off for good behavior

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    Unfortunately Temp if New York is like Massachusetts...they have to make room for the "really" bad guys. Prison overcrowding has resulting in Judge ordered wholesale releases of prisoners. So my guess is he'll do the minimum minimum jsut to make room for someone else.

    Ain't justice a bitch........

    Dave

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    I am a career firefighter somewhere in the Herkimer, Oneida, Madison county area (opting to remain anonymous for obvious reasons) and I've been following this thread since its inception following Mr. Baird's sentencing. I must say that you all have added some good comments and insights into the issue, even though the discussion had become rather heated at some points. Just a few comments I would like to add...

    THE SENTENCING: Initially, I felt Judge Dwyer's sentencing was adequate for what Baird had done. 75 days, community service, prohibiton from firefighting, etc. Even though his "series of bad decisions" were monumentally careless, his intent was not malicious. As much as I would have liked to see him spend more time in jail, I do not feel he should have received a sentence as if he had had malicious intent. Following Deputy387's insight into his actions and demeanor in jail, I am definitly of the opinion that his sentence should have been much harsher. In retrospect, it is unfortunate that he can not be barred from firefighting for life. However, whats done is done.

    CAREER/VOLUNTEERISM: Although I am now a paid firefighter, I was once a volunteer so I am familiar with how things work on both sides of the coin. Just to clear the air, I have nothing against volunteers. There are two types of volunteers in my opinion: those who are professionals and those who are in it for the glory and recognition. A professional volunteer is one who takes his duty humbly and does not actively seek recogniton for his actions. He learns all there is to learn about what he does and never beleives he is done learning. He therefore makes decisions based on knowledge and experience, weighing all the options and their possible outcomes before acting, keeping safety as his paramount priority. I have the utmost respect for individuals who fit this mold. The others are the ones who have through the years given volunteers a bad name. What kind of volunteer do you think Mr. Baird was?

    "In the career service, you become a line officer through maturity, years of experience, and professional training. In the volunteer service, you become a line officer because you are the winner of a popularity contest." - I am not sure who said it, but I will surely not take the credit. I think all of us know that this is generally how it works.

    CONCLUSION: Most of us are aware that much the way we operate could stand much improvement. Unfortunately, little is changed until a tragedy such as this occurs. Such is human nature. The time for anger and blame is over. Baird, has been sentenced (whether we agree with it or not)and after his sentence is served, will once again be square with the house. Let's train and fight smarter from now on and do our best to prevent accidents from happening.

    DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed above are mine and mine alone, and not the position of the fire department, IAFF local, or municipality which I serve.
    Iceman, FF/AEMT-CC
    In Memory of our fallen brothers - September 11, 2001

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    I was afraid that this sentence was a flat one and that the 75 days was not stipulated. I think you guys have to realize that NO ONE normally does a full sentence. There are any number of ways that a person can have his sentence reduced. Some are automatic, like good time, and some are applied for, but many exist. It is a fact of life.

    Deputy, does the jail have Internet access for inmates? Let Baird read these boards and then post on here. He won't be cocky long.

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    Actually George, I was going to suggest that maybe Deputy could bring him down a peg or two by printing off this forum and posting it in the jail. I'm not sure if Baird is aware he is the laughing stock of the Fire Service around the world, but we can certainly make the other inmates aware of it.

    One can only hope anyways

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    For those that wish to email regarding Alan Baird's EMT liscence I found the email address for the Bureau of Emergency Medical Services(ems@health.state.ny.us). It is a general email addy but I would think if you sent it to the attention of Edward Wronski, Director of Emergency Medical Services it would get where it needs to go.
    Last edited by Lewiston2Capt; 07-16-2002 at 11:12 AM.
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    Nice points, Iceman. Every now and then a fresh poster jumps in here and has something insightful.
    Michael "Mick" Mayers
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    I echo the esteemed Capt's words.

    Well written post Iceman. Nice to see a different and non-inflamatory viewpoint.

    Dave

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    Deputy387:
    So what happened to the appeal? If he is doing his jail time, it sounds like he is not appealing. But Robert Moran said in the article that I read that they were appealing just for the principles.
    What is going on?

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    Thanks for the attaboys, Truck6alpha and hfd66truck. I have to say that I'm quite amused that you referred to my post as non-inflammatory.

    I thought maybe you guys would be amused to know that I was originally thinking of ending my posting with "and lets just pray that while in jail, Bubba finds him attractive and decides to royally defile his colon"......But then I thought better of it.
    Iceman, FF/AEMT-CC
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    Default Appeal & Good Time

    I have seen a lot of people come to jail and serve a sentence and while in jail attempt to appeal their conviction. He has to serve 75 days in the county jail. About 20 days will be credited as good time, it may be more. He will only end up serving 3/4 or less of the sentence. As far as his demeanor, hasn't changed at all. Thinks he is some celebrity. He was arrogant prior to all of this and I think nothing is going to change him... What might have is State Prison time where the inmates are facing more time and don't care.

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