07-08-2002, 08:26 PM #26
The courses I have taken have listed the job priorities as this: #1 yourself #2 your fellow firefighter(s) #3 the public. I take the brother.
07-08-2002, 08:37 PM #27
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
- lumberton, NJ
I guess this is a hard choice either way.
If I couldn't rescue both I would do a quick look to see if either the child or FF was still in good shape(breathing) and had the most chance of living.
Of course its sort of like fighting a war. In that you go in as a unit and save your own before civilians. I mean would you leave a man to be shot and killed by the enemy to save a civilian just the same as leaving a man to be burned. It wouldn't be a good situation either path you chose. I know personally I would NEVER leave my partner inside.**This space for rent**
07-08-2002, 08:39 PM #28
I cant believe this question would be asked in a interview process.It dosent really make much sense. Unless you are operating by yourself (then I would have whoever is giving me the order join me)It really is a stupid question/scenario..
07-08-2002, 08:42 PM #29
OK, back up a bit and think those of you having confusion on the issue.
The child has been inside the building since PRIOR to the fire initiating. The FF has been in since, is probably wearing BA and stands a significantly greater chance of living.
Firefighters do come first, if you are thinking otherwise then please do not come near me and my team at a fire ground.
Can you get the FF and child, probably yes, even if it includes stuffing the child up his bunker coat.
If your egress path has turned to custard and no way to manage both, then take your Partner, he/she will keep you alive on another day.Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.
07-08-2002, 08:55 PM #30
I went in with my Brother, I'm coming out with my Brother.FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB-KTF
07-08-2002, 09:04 PM #31
The question reads like you just happen to come across an unconcious fireman. It dosent make much sense. I would hope we would all look out for each other a little better then that.
07-08-2002, 09:10 PM #32
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
I am my brothers keeper.
07-08-2002, 09:13 PM #33
- Join Date
- Apr 2001
- brooklyn new york
who goes home?
The brother comes out first. No choice, no thinking, no second guess involved. In the past I have found multiple victims at a fire, I notified the chief of location, number of victims and then took the smallest one (lol, I have learned a thing or two). But now we are talking about choice between a civilian (even if it is a child)or one of US. No choice. Never a choice. Our responsibility is to each other, then our families, then all others.
bob g r-2
07-08-2002, 09:19 PM #34
- Join Date
- Nov 2000
- MD & NJ
Without even a hesitation, it would be the firefighter that I would take out. I am there to watch his back and he is there to watch mine. Someone else can come in and try to rescue the child. I take care of my own first.When Life Is On The Line. We Are Never Off Duty.
07-08-2002, 09:44 PM #35
For the record I would take the brother for the reasons rescue2bob stated..... but what if the second victim was an 75yo female the choice then might be a little easier
Remember everyone goes homeIACOJ Membership 2002
The beatings will continue until the morale improves
07-08-2002, 11:18 PM #36
- Join Date
- Dec 2000
I agree with Mikey, this is a stupid scenario. I would be in there with a partner and we would grab both. But for hypothetical sake:
Both answers have merit. I've gotta watch out for my brother or sister but being a parent of young children, it would tear me up to leave the kid behind.
When it came down to it, I'd grab the firefighter but this would require some very long CISD sessions!FTM-PTB-DTRT
07-08-2002, 11:43 PM #37
We are trained as follows:
2. My brothers/sisters
3. Everyone else
The job requires the highest degree of trust, and without that, we can't function. I would be reluctant to voluntarily enter a dangerous situation with a partner who had previously chosen not to save a brother or sister when they had the chance.
I might have to move to another state afterward, or at the very least subject myelf to some serious counseling, but I would save the firefighter without hesitation.Asst. Chief Bill
International Order of the Fraternal Brotherhood of the Club
Somewhere in or near north central Creek County, Oklahoma
07-09-2002, 12:49 AM #38
First of all, I wouldn't be in there alone, so my "right hand" could assist with one.
Being a mother myself, I always said I would fight the devil himself when it comes to my son, as would any parent. So I can't begin to imagine pulling a F.F. out and facing the distraught mother.
But, in a situation where I was alone, I'd try and improvise a way to drag them both out hoping my requests for assistance would be answered. If it were impossible, I'd have to take the child.
F.F.'s know what they're getting themselves into.
That child never asked for any of it.
If you're not scared, you're not safe.
07-09-2002, 01:29 AM #39
I remember back 16 years ago when our Department was formed. There were 14 of us very green recruits going to basic firefighting classes and one of the first questions the instructor asked was "what is a firefighter's first responsibility"? I'm thinking "what a stupid question - to put out fires what else." Before I could give my stupid answer he replies with "to save lives and, the first life you are responsible for saving is your own, second is your fellow firefighters and third is everyone else." That has been ingrained in me ever since. I wouldn't have to think about it. The firefighter would be the one coming out with me.
07-09-2002, 02:12 AM #40
If found in this situation, you should have your partner by your side, so take both rescues together with your brother! If the firefighter down is your partner, your ***** better be saving that firefighter. You go.....WE go!!!! it is as simple as that to me!! I would hope we all understand that.....G.B. Yoho (member)
IAFF Local #12
Be Alert and Be Safe!!!!
07-09-2002, 05:21 AM #41
After some careful thought about this...I put myself in the downed firefighter position. If someone showed up and could only rescue one of us...and I was conscious, I would immediately point to the infant and say, "Save the child."
The firefighter probably went in initially...looking to rescue the child...so go in and finish the original objective.
What a tough question....one I hope to never be confronted with!Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones
*Gathering Crust Since 1968*
On the web at www.section2wildfire.com
07-09-2002, 08:48 AM #42
Aint we silly?
Now put the shoe on the other foot. What if you were the guy that was down and you had a victim (we will say a viable one) and a brother finds you from your pass device. What would you tell him???
I ask this only becouse I believe everyone of us would say to take the victim. Funny how perspective chances things.
The first scenerio I agree. Take the brother, but if I was the one down I'd want my partner to take out the victim and pray for the RIT to get to me....Dean Urquhart
I used to only have One President, Charleton Heston, then came George. Now I'm lucky enough to have a third.... Capt Gonzo
07-09-2002, 09:05 AM #43
Unless the other FF was obviously dead I'd take him.
Like it or not it's not an unreasonable question. It's unlikely that you'd ever have to make that choice, but it is possible. You may also be injured and not have the capacity to take both out - this might be your partner you went in with.
It's sad to think about, but others have said it correctly - bottom line is you and your fellow firefighters come first, always.
If a firefighter doesn't go home, how many people will die in the future they may have saved, and for what? A victim that is most likely not even viable?
We have to think with our heads and not with our hearts sometimes - period. That's what that interview question is all about - emotion vs. training.Susan Lounsbury
Winston-Salem Rescue Squad
Griffith Volunteer FD
07-09-2002, 10:23 AM #44
- Join Date
- Nov 1999
- Lakes Region of NH
My experience is that when this question is used as an oral board question the board wants and answer with the info you have been given. No debate, no if this, if that. If this was a real situation and it was grab one and go NOW you don't have time for analysis, a snap decision is needed. You are not always with a partner, always is such a tricky word. Nothing is absolute.
I am with Iceman, rescue2bob,loco179 and Motown here. Make your decision and act. I grab the firefighter and get the hell out. Why? Doesn't matter, it wasn't what they asked. Conversly if it is an ethics class thesis paper then it would be a great debate for some people to expound on.Proud to be an American, Union Firefighter!
07-09-2002, 10:53 AM #45
I would definitely take out the brother, and call for help for the the baby. I have always been taught, and now i teach that the life priority on the fireground is me, my partner, and then the public. We as firefighters have a trust in every other firefighter on the fireground that if something happened they would be there to get us out of the situation. That is the bond that firefighters share with one another.
As for interviews, the last one I had, this question came up, and I think they were kind of shocked that I said firefighter before civilian.Loo
Lieutenant / EMT- Paramedic
Protective Services Officer
07-09-2002, 11:34 AM #46
- Join Date
- Jul 2000
Wow, Not alot to work with.
Given the question at hand. The answer would have to be the firefighter. I understand that the interview board is trying to see where your priorities are and if you have the understanding that it is You, Your Brothers and then the Public.
In reality it would be the first victim you come across. Then the rest of your search crew would be left to continue the search.
If the downed firefighter was still concious I would pray that he had the strength and ability to keep the child in his arms.
IN MY OPINION: Every situation will be different. You are to make the best decision possible at that time and then follow through with that decision. If "You"second guess yourself "You" could be the third victim.
07-09-2002, 11:35 AM #47
- Join Date
- Oct 1999
I had an instructor who said this:
"When the sh*t hits the fan you worry about things in this order
1.Your own @$$
2.Your buddy's @$$
3.The person in the sh*t"
Pretty simple and I guess I agree with it.
07-09-2002, 01:45 PM #48
- Join Date
- Jan 2001
Save the firefighter! You-Partner-Bystander-Victim is what we are trained to go by for our own safety. Also, good points, the firefighter is in gear and if something was big enough to take down him/her, it has probably killed the 2 year old, or will shortly as they will decompensate very quickly once they start. Yes the child may grow up to take the place of the firefighter...but how many MORE lives may that very firefighter go on to save?
Question to the question...why was the firefighter alone to start with? Where is his/her partner and are they down too?
The first time in my training that I heard the victim is our LAST priority on a scene as far as safety I was caught off-guard. It seems counter-intuitive. However, after doing this for 10 years, I understand and place the safety of those I work with as paramount. This job is dangerous enough if we don't look out for each other.
God bless and be safe.
07-09-2002, 02:35 PM #49
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
- Greeley, Colorado
I sure hope I'm never put in that situation. If I was, though, the brother is the one going home with me. I have to agree with the priorities of ME, MY FFs, and ALL OTHERS.
Remember, if the house is fully involved when you arrive, the victims are probably already dead, if not circling the drain. There is nothing you could do to save them now, so go with your strongest save possibility. Think of it as triage at an MCI, if they are dead, or will be dead, tag them black and move on. The brother has a chance of survival with his protective equipment.
Be Safe, and hope we never have to face this situation.
Chris"No one ever called the fire service because they did something intelligent."-Lt. Kevin Reilly
07-09-2002, 03:59 PM #50
- Join Date
- Feb 2002
It's a situation I hope never to be in How about 2in and 4 out
Be safe the dragon still bites
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