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  1. #1
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    Question Interior Training

    I'm 17 years old and i am on a rural volly dept. Our department let's juniors do interior training on live structure burns. Is this commonn practice with other departments.


  2. #2
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    Exclamation NO WAY

    In my Fire Dept., or should I say the whole state of NY, would never put a Jr.'s life at danger. In my dept. they don't even let us run exterior lines, the Jr.'s job is to fill air bottles on the Utility Truck. I got in trouble one day for helping the Fire Police direct traffic, imagine what would happen if we did interior!
    ***The opinions above belong to me. They do not represent my affiliation***
    (Visit us at www.randolphfire.org)

  3. #3
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    Default

    DeepRun22,

    No way, no how should this be going on. If one of you gets hurt, or worse, that's the end for your junior program.



    Ricky_rfd_ny,

    The reason that you got in trouble was because after the incident in Kendall, NY (if you arent familiar with it, a firefighter was killed while directing traffic, he had no fire police training), the state passed a law prohibiting anyone but certified fire police from directing traffic. If your dept. let you do it, they could get in huge trouble.

  4. #4
    JeepFireNY
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    In NY you must complete "Basic Firefighter" before you can go into a burning building. Of course you cannot take Basic if you are a junior either. You shouldn't be going into live burns without 1) being a firefighter and 2) having a basic certified training course.

    Stay Safe.

  5. #5
    HNFC FF/President mdoddsjffhnfc's Avatar
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    Default

    in my company, juniors can fight from the exterior ONLY we can pull a line and fight outside, but NJ law states that no junior shall enter a structure that is on fire until the building has been flushed of all fire and overhaul is needed.
    Firefighter, Volunteering since Oct 2001

    CCFA 05-04, best overall class for 2005
    "GOOD GAME!"

  6. #6
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    Default

    Our company will let us go into our burn building at the fireschool. And obviously we are not allowed to go in on the fireground.

  7. #7
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    I have taken NFPA 1403. Which is the live structure class. I guess maybe the laws are different in n.c.. In our department you have to do what you got to do even if it does mean taking a chance. I belive the deecicsion should be left up to the chief on juniors going in live structures. And also all of our juniors are 16-18 we are trained for what we might have to face and that might mean if we don't have enough manpower a junior willl have to do interior firefighting. I don't see the difference in a burn building and a live structure both of them can kill you. I guess sometimes you just have to take chances.

  8. #8
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
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    Default

    CT is an OSHA state, so Juniors are not supposed to enter structures with live fires.

    However, many departments allow juniors to do live training.

    Also, every now and then they let Juniors go inside for live incidents (usually from lack of personnel).
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  9. #9
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    It may be a common practice, but it may not always be the best practice.

    I know in Virginia the Department of Fire Programs would not permit juniors 16-18 to participate in interior training in acquired structures unless they had their Firefighter 1 minimum. They could train in recognized burn buildings in a recognized state training class or in the process of taking a firefighter 1 or firefighter 2 course.

    There are definitely pros and cons to this issue. The pros are that is exposes you to real life type burns. The cons are there are so many variables in an acquired structure that people with limited skills or no training may not react accordingly in an emergency...LAIRDSVILLE NY...September 2001.

    The results as you can see could be caststrophic.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  10. #10
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    Cap Stan

    I was wondering how long before that came up. Compare Lairdsville with the statement made by JeepFire and you start wondering about all them MUTTS saying it was an accident.

    Down here in New Zealand unless you have done Basic Firefighters training you do not go on a call. Unless you are BA qualified you do not enter an involved structure.

    Cadets (16-18 Years) are not allowed to do Basic, so the logic is simple. NO entry, even at training.

    For those that have a beef with that concept, then I submit the following.

    The work is tricky enough for us, without having to worry about your ***. You have time to learn and observe, be patient. Your day will come when you can enter.

    Learn all you can, train hard. You will surely need it when the time comes for you.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  11. #11
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    Default

    Thanks for everybody's input. I gues our juniors are lucky, most other departments around my area do the same thing so i guess it depends on what area you are from. And also what happened in lairdsville?

  12. #12
    Senior Member upinflames60's Avatar
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    yea we can go in live burns too. its not putting a jr's life in danger, thats how u learn. not just by watching from the outside, but thats how i look at things, its just my opinion.
    Burgess Wills
    Firefighter/EMT
    Windsor Vol. Fire Department
    Chuckatuck Vol. Fire Department

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    I know in Virginia the Department of Fire Programs would not permit juniors 16-18 to participate in interior training in acquired structures unless they had their Firefighter 1 minimum. They could train in recognized burn buildings in a recognized state training class or in the process of taking a firefighter 1 or firefighter 2 course.
    Thanks Capt. - I was a little late getting here to post that.

    Also as Jr Advisor for My Dept. (as well as self appointed safety officer till we can elect a real one). Where Jr's are concerned we do the following:

    Burn Building
    Trainee's (of any age & status - including re-certs) are allowed on the hose line in teams of 2 w/ an experienced FF as a 3rd man/supervisor. There is always another FF inside the burn area who is in charge of / supervising the burn room itself. There is also an experienced 2 man team on a charged hose line from a different source pumper in the burn room at all times when someone is inside.

    Acquired Structure
    Same as above except trainees are allowed on the hose line 1 at a time paired w/ an experienced FF. All other precautions mentioned above are the same.

    True Structure Fire
    Any new / inexperienced member WITH FF I may be paired with an experienced FF, typically as the back up man on the line. If conditions are such that the fire is small/contained - it is the discretion of the experienced FF to "switch off" with the rookie and allow him some supervised nozzle time.

    AT NO TIME are any members (Jr or otherwise) who do not have a minimum of FF I training allowed to do any fire suppression work - period.

    Just remember - the fire service is supposed to protect life over property - this includes your life.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  14. #14
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    N2DFIRE...You following 1403 on all live burns?

    Your rules differ a bit unless I did not understand them. It was my impression that in Virginia, you were not allowed to take 16 and 17 yr olds into an aquired structure "unless they have firefighter 1 minimum" and as far as I know the VDFP did not even allow the use of acquired structures for level 1 Classes...
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
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    Default

    captstanm1

    It was my understanding that we were, however I WILL check on this. I have a couple other NFPA reg's. I need to get copies of from our Public Safety office - I'll add that one to the top of my list and go through it.

    Thanks for the Heads Up.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  16. #16
    Forum Member FGFD43's Avatar
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    Exclamation Better watch out

    Since there are a couple of advisors in on this discussion, I thought I would bring this up. If your junior is considered a minor in your state, your dept. may be considered "en loco parentis" (I believe this is the proper term) meaning that you are taking the place of the chlids's parents when he/she is in your custody, meaning on the fireground, on a scene, or on a training ground. Therefore, if one of your junior's gets hurt, you can still get your dept. sued off. Saying he is a volunteer won't stand up because, as a minor, he has no say so. Secondly, even if you don't get sued. How many parents are going to allow there kids to stay in the program if something happens. Not to mention the general public fallout, "Volunteers let 16 yr old kid into raging inferno." doesn't look good in the papers. In my opinion, any fire department that allows juniors to take up the slack for it's seniors is reckless. Remember, as intellegent and mature acting as some of our juniors are, they are still kids. Juniors, I know you don't believe me now but wait, there will be more than enough time to get in all the smoke eating and water squiting you can stand. Just hang in there and watch and learn.
    Kevin Sink
    Fair Grove Fire Dept.
    Thomasville, NC USA
    kevinsink@northstate.net

  17. #17
    JeepFireNY
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    Like my instructor in Basic Firefighter said, "There are plenty of jobs on the fireground" Changing air bottles, getting tools, hooking up trucks, pulling hose, racking hose... the list is endless. For your safety and the safety of others, even if your department does indeed allow juniors to go into live burns, DON'T! You will thank yourself when you are finally a firefighter and have the proper training. Get to know your trucks and how your department operates at a structure fire... I did at my first structures and I am thankful now because I have a better sense of what to expect. I'm not running around like a chicken with its head chopped off. I know how the men operate and what to do... and why? Because I was exterior during the first couple of months of being a firefighter.

    Take it slow and safe, and you'll have a long career ahead of yourself.

  18. #18
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    FGFD43...you are correct...but I think that is the case in any state. The Federal Child Labor Laws will apply regardless of state law. If your department operates outside those stipulations then you are liable. In most cases it boils down to the way some paper pushing lawyer determines/interprets the laws.

    And yes...if you let Juniors or explorers take up the slack for seniors you are wreckless. I know of a department that made a 17 yr old a driver engineer because she "showed maturity." In my opinion, even though this person was a good driver and pump operator (in fact better than some seniors) this is one hell of a liability. As a D/E she functioned as a company officer and made decisions and assignments. She was demoted back to firefighter because the Chief did not like the riding assignments she made one day. Trusted her to drive but not make assignments. This whole situation was dangerous and extremely stressful for other company officers who had to ride with her (again...she was a good driver) as well as for her when she had to lead people who were twice her age or more. I don't care if it is my son and I trained him...I would not want, nor would I let him (if I had control) dirve at age 17.

    This may be a bit off the thread but it is an example of poor management of young members and a recipe for disaster.

    When you start to do something stupid with young and untrained, unexerienced juniors or even senior members....just take a breath and thinkg of Lairdsville NY and Bradley Golden! Then....ask yourself..."Do I really want to do that?"
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  19. #19
    JeepFireNY
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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    And yes...if you let Juniors or explorers take up the slack for seniors you are wreckless. I know of a department that made a 17 yr old a driver engineer because she "showed maturity." In my opinion, even though this person was a good driver and pump operator (in fact better than some seniors) this is one hell of a liability. As a D/E she functioned as a company officer and made decisions and assignments. She was demoted back to firefighter because the Chief did not like the riding assignments she made one day. Trusted her to drive but not make assignments. This whole situation was dangerous and extremely stressful for other company officers who had to ride with her (again...she was a good driver) as well as for her when she had to lead people who were twice her age or more. I don't care if it is my son and I trained him...I would not want, nor would I let him (if I had control) dirve at age 17.
    Gee... I'm sure that would go over real well in my dept. What would she do if she wrecked the truck or somebody was hurt en-route to the scene? Good driver, maybe... but if somebody is reckless and pulls in front of the truck... I'm sure the lawyers would love to hear that a 17 year old was driving the truck. Very dangerous indeed.

  20. #20
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    Default A Little Input

    I am also 17 years old and getting ready to move on to be a full-timer. I think I may have an opportunity to participate in the structure firefighting class that will be in my area in the fall, making me State Certified to fight structure fires.

    In regards to some of the post that I have been reading, there are many pros and cons to letting us (juniors) go into burning buildings. I think in a live (training) burn that in the very begining stages of the fire and in the overhaul stages of the fire that it is good to let juniors go inside and have a look. It teaches us all about thermal currents, the heat, and how a fire moves around in a house. Only for familiarization and EXTREME lack of man power (Like you and one other firefighter are on scene and that is it, this has happened to me and my chief on occassion) should anyone under 18 be allowed inside a burning structure, never in a real combat firefighting situation is an explorer allowed to go inside a building, the BSA charter forbids it, they will not cover medical expenses for injuries sustained while participating in an activity they said is not for us yet. Going inside also poses an extreme liability risk to your department. This is probably one of those things that if you are lucky enough to have a very trusting fire department backing your post and they think you can handle it, then by all means get some interior experience, otherwise stay out of the way.


    Cody Winniford
    TVFD Explorer Post 200 Captain

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