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  1. #1
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    Default 2001 National Run Survey

    Sorry, but I've got to vent about this.
    I've just read the July Firehouse 2001 National Run Survey, and am finding it a difficult pill to swallow. Does anyone else have a problem believing that a Heavy Rescue from OH runs 12 rescue calls a day. Or only one ladder company in the US that runs more than this rescue.

    Having never filled the firehouse survey out I don't know what stats they are looking for. I realy don't consider every time I thought about going on a call, a call. Perhaps asking about working calls, or something that requires more then a NFIRS short form. I know you are on the street, but a ladder on an ambulance call isn't a ladder run to me. What criteria does Boston use to get almost 7 Haz Mat calls a day? They must be real tough I don't think I could get in a level A more than about once a day, maybe twice.

    I guess the tee shirt makers were all wrong, we should be wearing shirts from Columbus OH. How can towns like Boston, New York, LA, or Chicago compare with a firehouse that runs 56 calls a day, every day of he year. Code 3 hasn't ever made a model of any of their rigs because they don't sit still long enough to see any details on them.

    Thanks my meds just kicked in and I'm better now


  2. #2
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    Default Re: 2001 National Run Survey

    Originally posted by ADSN/WFLD
    Sorry, but I've got to vent about this.
    I've just read the July Firehouse 2001 National Run Survey, and am finding it a difficult pill to swallow. Does anyone else have a problem believing that a Heavy Rescue from OH runs 12 rescue calls a day. Or only one ladder company in the US that runs more than this rescue.
    Toledo only has 2 rescue squads, 1 & 7. A Squad is dispatched to every structure fire on the first alarm assignment. The Squads are also the RIT units. Also, Toledo (like most fire departments in this area) runs first responder for all EMS calls. Squad 1 also staffs the Water Rescue Unit.

    4,529 calls is 4,529 calls. Give them credit, they're running all over the city every day.

    I haven't heard anybody complaining about Paramedic Engine 10 from DCFD (or should I say DCFEMS) being the second busiest engine company in the nation. I guarantee that their EMS responses are included in their total.

    Did FDNY really have over 1 million fires last year or is EMS Command also included in that total?

    The run survey is for TOTAL calls isn't it?
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

  3. #3
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    Default

    You raise some very valid points and that is why it is difficult to compare services based upon "calls". Here for example, a hall may have two pumps ( engines for my american friends ) and an aerial in it. If they get sent on a call together it counts as one "call" and not 3. I still maintain that if your doing 40- 50 "calls" a day on an engine then you must have alot of BS calls. Volume doesn't equal skill. I ignore stats on runs now because they can be easily fudged.

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    I don't think any of it matters. It is just a survey. sure EMS will make a difference. I am sure there are engine co's in old rust belt towns(DETROIT, CLEVELAND, CHICAGO, MILWAUKEE, ETC) that run 3 or 4 calls a day but are getting their butts kicked because of the decaying condition of the neighborhoods they cover. I know of a suburban community that has a fairly high run total (8 man total duty crew handle average of 9 runs per day) for a small community, but they don't have fires(maybe 2 workers per year. So what. Each town is unique. A guy running in Harlem or Brooklyn may fight a lot of fire, and maybe that makes him a better experienced ff. But it doesnt lessen the efforts of a small town guy, or the quality of his department. A person rescued by Detroit FD is going to be grateful, as will that same person in a small town who is treated by FD paramedics who come in a engine in 3 minutes and provide treatment for the additional 8 minutes it takes for the ambulance to arrive. Today in my town we had a parade and the grand marshall was Brian McElwain, FDNY Engine 201. No doubt he sees a lot more than the local firefighters(Traverse City, MI Fire Dept IAFF local 646). The TCFD has 25 firefighters, 5 man minimum crew, whole dept probably responds to 1500 runs a year, mostly EMS. But just as they were making it to the end of the parade with MR. McElwain, they had to go to an amonia leak/explosion that leveled a warehouse at a fruit packing plant. So they do the job differently than other towns..They still do the job. By the way, the last time I was in toledo, it looked like a gritty industrial town, the type that usually sees some action.

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    Default

    One has only to look at the June issue of Firehouse at the total calls section of the survey to see that is where the break down is. While FDNY had more total calls by almost a million than the next department, DCFEMS had the most fire calls, FDNY was seventh. I don't think that these surveys were ever intended to be hard data. The fact is not every department logs their alarms the same as everybody else. And keep in mind, in departments with "All Quints" which do you count as a pumper and which as a ladder on each alarm? My brother in Richmond VA FD has all quints and it depends in whose first due the box comes in as as to whether he responds as a truck co. or an engine co. or the BC might even change his assignment in route.

    Just like the betting line in the newspapers, they are "for entertainment purposes only".

    Just my view on the Firehouse survey.
    "What makes a person run into a building others are running out of?...Character."- Dennis Smith

    www.elmirafire.org

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    DCFD had the most fire calls? The FDNY number for fire calls is for reported structral fires. It doesnt include autos, outside rubbish,stuck elevators,water leaks...etc. It all depends on how a department classifies runs. I think most depts list ems, and everything else is a "fire" run. NYC listed 1,379,189 runs. of which 1,097,564 were ems, and 57,443 were fire (structural) that leaves 224,182 runs not in the survey. Those are the water leaks, stuck elevators, auto fires, outside rubbish, that other depts consider a "fire" run

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    Don't forget about Houston. 4th largest city in the country and 4th busiest according to Fire House Magazine. 83 Engine Co.'s, 37 Truck Co.'s., 2 Heavy Rescue Co.'s, 2 Haz Mat Co.'s, 22 District Chiefs, etc. It is my career department and we do run our fair share of not only the BS calls but also fires. We outrun Detroit, Chicago, Dallas, Baltimore and L.A. County. In recent years we were 2nd and 3rd in structural fires in the country. So, its not just the departments in the NE or the rust belt that are running everyday and making fires everyday. It seems the media, buffs and history just focus on the NE and the rust belt. Just my thoughts.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    This survey dosent really tell the whole story. Different departments count calls different ways. I know of quite a few departments that count each rig that runs out as a seperate run #..

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    and not to metion Kentland (Prince George's County, Maryland) Engine Co. 33 was listed as the 5th busiest in the nation. They have 3 Engines and a Mini-Pumper that respond as "Engine Co. 33" and every time that they go out the door it counts as 4 calls. In acuallity they run about 1500 runs, which is still respectable. In this case the numbers DO lie....

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    I have to agree with Mikey. If we did the different unit break downs at work it would be a real difference. We run both fire and problEMS but do not count the total call count any different. As of right now I think the county as a whole is somewhere around several thousand runs this year. The stats are kept for the break down of each type of run somewhere but I dont know where. Each station, as well as the computer, keeps count of individual unit runs. The trend of running engines on EMS calls is what is driving up the call volumes.

    Matt

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    I agree with WTFD10. I have lived and worked in Toledo for 5 years and I have seen this Rescue 1 in action, as well if you listen to the Toledo Fire Dispatch you hear this unit out and about all day and night.

  12. #12
    Forum Member DaFAO's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2001 National Run Survey

    POST REMOVED BY WEBTEAM FOR CONTENT

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    Wow, I never realized that I was in the "southern cornbelt". Addison and Winfield are both North of your entire state. It must be rough by you if you can't even grow corn.

    On a more serious note, I would like to know how you calculate your stats. What equipment is at station 2, when you break down the 20,528 runs by number of rigs you get 9 a day. A totaly believable number. Does Columbus assign a run number to every rig that responds or just to the call itself reguardless of rigs. Do you run on trouble alarms?
    All of that factors into how busy you are.

    I have nothing against Columbus, I just don't like the way Firehouse Magazine determines who is busiest.

    Stay Safe

  14. #14
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    Arrow FDNY Info

    These are the official stats for June 2002 for FDNY:

    Structural Fires 2,099 (70 per day)

    All Hands Fires 222 (7.4 per day)

    2nd Alarm 20

    3rd Alarm 2

    4th Alarm 3

    I may be wrong on the exact companies assigned, but an all hands fire has 4 engines, 3 trucks, 1 squad engine, a rescue company, and enough chiefs and aides to staff a couple more companies.

    I was under the impression that the run survey places Columbus station 2 first because of the total # of runs by all units assigned. There are 2 engines, a truck, rescue, and squad in there (a chief too???). Each response by any company would be counted as a run. If both engines and the truck made the same fire, they did each have a response.

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    Forum Member Box2565's Avatar
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    Arrow Columbus Dispatch Story

    Take a look at this link to read about CFD Station 2:
    http://libpub.dispatch.com/cgi-bin/d...17:4:173949:4:


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    Default

    Thanks Steve for the insight.

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    As I have said before on this issue, the run survey is not apples to apples by any comparison. I'm sure the brothers in Colombus on Squad 2 run their asses off. Every city in the country has companies that do. The common thread is that alot of the running by these busy companies are BS. No two ways about it and we all know it. I do however take exception to the "busiest station" part of the survey. How many units assigned to Colombus Station 2? Atleast 7 if not more. Unless every station in that part of the survey have the same number of units it is not accurate. Of course Colombus Station 2 is gonna outrun a station with 3 or 4 units. Hell, the fact that they are running 2 engines out of it accounts for alot of the runs I'm sure. So, until they break the survey down to runs, structure fires, working structure fires, etc. we will continue to have these descrepencies.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  18. #18
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    I only have a few words to say about the FH run survey. Personally I could care less about the survey from FH. We all know what we do, the survey really means ziltch.

  19. #19
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    You think they are hard to compare now wait until you see the volunteer run survey when it comes out. I have been attempting to research the busier volunteer fire depts in this country and it is almost impossible to identify who is running what. Most of this is because - as been stated earlier many times in this thread - equipment responses are counted - not the incident #s by many companies.

    You will see some interesting #s when the Volunteer Run Survey comes out.

  20. #20
    Forum Member firemangeorge's Avatar
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    Default

    As I said in a related thread:
    Each fire department can hold only one place on the chart. So, even if the first ranked fire department has forty companies that are busier than the second ranked company, the only one that counts is the busiest company on a particular department. In this way, more cities are represented, but the numbers are somewhat incorrect, if taken at face value.

    So many factors affect the number of runs a company makes. Next closest unit, number of companies for a response, square miles covered, etc. But it doesn't change the fact that a certain company crossed the sill however many thousand times. Do you only count a run if you actually do something at the scene? No. Nobody else does either. In fact the bigger the department, the more false calls. But they are still runs.
    See You At The Big One

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