Thread: Whats a quint?

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    Unhappy Whats a quint?

    Someone asked me the other day and I told them a
    Quint has 5 major parts-

    1. Aerial ladder.
    2. Ground ladders.
    3. Tank/Water
    4. Pump
    5. Tools

    It been awhile since I had to think about it. How close
    was I?

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    If I remember right, change tools to hose and that's it.....

    **quick rifle through IFSTA**

    1) Pump
    2) Tank
    3) Ground ladder complement
    4) Hose body
    5) Aerial ladder
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    A waste of man power.
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    Got a similar question... what's the criteria for a "Quad"?

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    A Quad Stands for 4 just as "Quint" stands for 5. A quad would be a triple combination Pumper (Hose, tank, Pump) with either an aerial ladder or full NFPA ground ladder complitment. Traditionally Quads were used in the 40s through the 60s for post-war suburbs that were dealing with the outflow from the cities and needed truck companies but really couldn't justify the purchase of a 100ft tiller (which is what most ladders were back then) Remember a great deal of the post war construction was two-bedroom slab homes with little need for the aerial ladders that had limited capabities during that time period.

    I also agree with E40/L35 the quint is nothing but a waste and stems from misguided chiefs who aren't well schooled in Strategy and Tactics. Puting one quint with 3 or even 4 men doesn't replace a properly staffed engine and truck.

    Although a Quint CAN do 5 functions...really it only does ONE!

    Two cents from a fireman unfortuneately assigned to a quint.

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    How can any apparatus driver concentrate when trying to operate a ladder and a pump at the same scene? I personally would want the aerial operator to be able to stay with the ladder. Im sure the same goes with someone on a line.
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    A quint is an apparatus used by administrators to cut staffing to unacceptable levels.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 07-20-2002 at 09:05 AM.

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    How can any apparatus driver concentrate when trying to operate a ladder and a pump at the same scene?
    I agree. However, as far as I know a quint can mechanically only perform one or the other functions as a pump or an aerial. The PTO cannot operate both functions at the same time for them operate at normal speed. When you pull up to a fire you have to decide either you want to push water or go for height.

    I also agree with E40/L35 the quint is nothing but a waste and stems from misguided chiefs who aren't well schooled in Strategy and Tactics.
    The "Total Quint Concept" pretty much goes along this way as well. You're manpower is reduced so manning wise you can only perform one function well, a hose line or a ladder company, at any given point. You are still running with 3, 4, or MAYBE a 5 man company and you are still bound by the task that needs to be performed.

    The only possible benefit I can see of this is that your second due company will have whatever capability you are going to need. THis can be countered by closing of companies, i.e., a two company house of an engine and a ladder will be changed to a "Quint" house so your second due company is further away instead of being on your tailboard.

    I think this idea will go the way of "Slime lime" and in a few years
    it will be viewed as a failed EXPERIMENT. I use experiment because this is a concept and idea that has yet to be proven as very effective
    and to be tested. In addition, what may work in one community will probably not work, in general, in a lot of other communities.
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    I dont have any fireground expierence my self.But to me a Quint is a good idea properly staffed.From my knowledge of them they have advantages and dis-advantages,like any piece of appartus.My point is lets say your ladder compony is further from the call than the pump and someone is trapped on the 4th floor of building,with a Quint you can immediately get a ladder up there. Also to me it seems to be cost saving mesuare. And i believe once your ladder is up for a fixed areial master stream,you can run the pump for handlines too,and control the stream at the top via a remote system rather than move the whole ladder- i believe .And i know im gonna get laughed at for this one but, i just think they look cool!

    But anyway a Quint is
    1 Pumper
    2 Hose carrier
    3 Ariel Master stream
    4 Ladder
    5 Tanker
    Just my 2 cents
    Last edited by dfdex1; 07-19-2002 at 08:02 PM.

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    I think the answer to the question was answered for him, and someone else brought up some HUGE points regarding proper staffing on a quint. Our quint has a current daily manning minimum of 3 and now because of budget crunching for 2003 they are discussing changing the minimum manning to 2. Someone tell what good that would do anyone. It would be near impossible for a 2 person truck company to perform their tasks at a fire or other major incident. It would be too UN-safe.
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    Just wondering if anyone had seen the St. Louis "total quint concept"? To me it looks interesting. As long as you are sending enough people off the bat, it seems as though a quint would be a big old multi funtional vehicle. FDNY rescues handle water, collapse, RIT, extrication, trench, firefighting, and a million other things. Is this not the same concept? I gues my dept. runs all quints, except they are used as ladder companies, we still have a whole lot of engines that hump hose. So are quints really that bad, or is it just the penny pinchers who give them a bad name?

    Quints do have their place. What if you put 6 on the quint, instead of running 2 engine companies (around here its usually 3 per engine)? Yes, there would still have to be more people on the way! our regulars will bring a minimum of 12 bodies on 5 trucks (2 engines, ladder, medic, dist. chief.) What if you sent 3 6 man quints? Saves on buying so many trucks, maybe even helps with the staffing per unit ration! Just ome ideas in my head! We have a huge staffing situation taking shape!

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    For the person who was under the impression that one can't operate both the aerial and pump at the same time...well as long as it is specified when built any manufacturer can build a quint that will operate both, mine does. Just thought I'd let ya'll know.

    However here is something to think about in regards to running the pump and stick simutaneously. Typically one has a high-idle switch at the pedestal. During practice you might take the ladder out of high-idle so as to carefully position it at a window or roof...Well at the real-deal your multi-functional quint will have its pump in gear an you will NOT have control over the throttle. It is quite an experience to have the throttle shoot up during a delicate positioning of the stick because the pump operator needed to up the pressure!

    St Louis is about the only ones (who on a larger scale) have done a reasonable job with the quints. Although many of the guys I have met from St. Louie have reservations they still have Truck Co's. and just gave the engines another tool. The use of quints by some Depts to eliminate Trucks altogether is where my grievance lies.

    I would not liken FDNY Rescue Cos to that of St. Louis Quints. The FDNY Rescues are like the ARMY or Marrine's special forces, not every soldier can be in Special forces. Only the most motivated and dedicated individuals who can handle the additional responsiblites of tech rescue/collaspe/SCUBA etc. besides those duties of a fireman make it.

    Taking and Engineman placing him on a Quint and expecting him to perform Truck duties as proficiently as a seasoned Truckie just doesn't cut the mustard. On FireChief.com Ronnie Coleman calls it "Skills degradation" in a recent article. You'd think some of these Chief's out there would read some of the articles in the subscriptions they take!

    Just something to think about.

    Stay safe out there.

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    A quint is a MUTT friendly fire truck. Waste of resources, money, time and manpower.
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    Default Thanks for answering...

    1. Thanks for answering my question.

    2. I always thought of a quint as a Truck Company
    just with a pump and water added to it.

    WHY I LIKE IT- (keep in mind I am from California)

    If you are at a station with an engine and quint.
    The engine is committed elsewhere and you get a
    call for a structure fire down the street. Say it is
    a standard contents fire. That quint can go first on
    scene and knock it down with it's 200 or 300 hundred
    gallons of water. Just another tool on board.

    ALSO- I know you salty dudes dont like it, ever seen
    the tiller ladder trucks we have out here with the
    tanks added. Still somewhat of a new concept, but hey
    it gets the job done.

    Thanks....
    Last edited by CAFFBOU; 07-20-2002 at 04:56 PM.

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    The negative issue with a quint is not it's capabilities. The problem is usage of manpower. As has been pointed out, many of the politician chiefs are touting the quint for it's cost-savings and those cost-savings are realized by reductions in manpower. Not only does it reduce numbers on the truck but also reduces the number of officers, assuming that most companies utilize one officer on each apparatus. Not only does this provide fewer firefighters at the scene but also reduces the officer pool resulting in older personel performing firefighting duties. The politician chiefs are willing to risk lives using quints not only firefighters lives but lives of the public as well.

    To put it quite simply "QUINTS ARE KILLERS" if used to reduce manpower!

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    Default It depends on the environment...

    The whole issue of the usefulness of quints & aerial quads comes down to the environment in which you work and the way in which they are staffed and used. This really is, for the most part, a "career vs volunteer" thing, only there shouldn't be a fight over it.

    There's no doubt in my mind that, in a perfect world, the public would be served by fully-staffed, specialized engine, ladder, rescue, tanker and specialty companies (where needed). They would run in known combinations on incidents, have their duties well-planned in advance, and carry them out each time without shortage of resources. There would be no need for hybrid apparatus (quints, quads, tanker/pumpers, pumper/tankers, etc.) in this perfect world, since every response would get the apparatus and manpower needed from the pool of single-function apparatus. Where there are career departments, the people in charge (particularly the politicians holding the purse strings) have the power to create this "perfect world", if only they'll commit enough resources to equipment and staffing to make it so, although they rarely commit anthing close to enough resources to the job. From this point of view, hybrid apparatus of any kind is a form of "the enemy", since quints, quads, etc. just allow the politicians in charge to skimp even more on resources than they typically do already. In the career world, I can certainly understand the "quints are bad" argument.

    In most of the volunteer world, it's a different situation entirely. Staffing isn't guaranteed, so it's not a certainty that the first-due engine and first-due ladder will arrive in the proper order with proper staffing to cover their specific duties (for example), and so forth. In this very imperfect world, a hybrid piece like a quint can "pull your fat out of the fire", so to speak, when that first-due engine doesn't get out as planned or doesn't have the manpower on board that it should, and that "ladder company" on a quint or aerial quad can flip over to engine company operations when it's warranted. All of this would be solved, of course, if every square inch of the country were covered by career departments operating under my "perfect world" scenario (and I'm not even opposed to that, actually), but that's not going to happen in my lifetime, I'm sure. This is, after all, the real world we're living in, not a perfect one.

    We have two hybrids in our station. One is a 55' telesquirt, which goes out the door under the assumption that it will function as an attack engine, but can go into aerial ops on small buildings if the situation warrants it. The other is a 105' aerial quad (no supply hose), which goes out the door as a ladder company (complete with 155' of ground ladders), but can take an attack posture if the situation demands it. This works quite well, in combination with the other apparatus running as part of out automatic mutual aid setup, and we're very happy with the equipment and how it works in the field (which is really a function of how it's deployed, more than its configuration).

    As for the ability to work the different elements simultaneously, it depends on proper procedure and truck specs. Both our rigs can run pumps, aerials and generators simultaneously. Our procedures dictate that, if pumps and aerials on a given truck are used simultaneously, the primary operator is responsible for the pump, a secondary operator is assigned to the aerial, and that secondary operator is under the command of the primary operator (in short, "the driver owns the rig"). It works, as long as everybody communicates.

    Just a perspective from a content hybrid user. Take it for what you think it's worth.

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    Well said Bob, my comments obviousy were strictly from the viewpoint of the large, career department. As said, properly deployed, hybrid vehicles have their place. Unfortunately to city politicians and politician chiefs (which incidently, my chief is not), the sole purpose of the hybrid vehicle is manpower reduction, putting firefighters and public at risk.

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    Unhappy Killers???

    As for the manpower issue and calling them
    "killers". As far as I know, on the West Coast,
    (LA, Orange, Ventura Counties)Quints are used as
    regular, fully staffed truck companys. The trucks
    have a full crew and Captain and not some type of
    "half baked" deal.

    I admit I dont know much about the politics and
    SOPs of the area your talking about.

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    As far as staffing is concerned, if a department goes for four on the quints and four on the engines, is that sufficient staffing in your eyes?

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    Just to make my statement clear, quints are not the problem, politicians are. In the right situation where the purchase of a hybrid vehicle is done as an enhancement to service, for example, a small city or town which runs a pump and cannot afford to run a pump and an aerial, then I support and applaud the usage of a quint. However in a situation where a service reduces from a pump and aerial to a quint in order to realize:

    1. A reduction in manpower
    2. A reduction in experienced personel because they can then run 1 fewer officer.

    For the sole purpose of cost reduction. Then the politicians and politician chiefs (note the use of lower case is intentional) are in fact placing lives of firefighters and the public at risk. I appologize to those who rightfully feel that this type of vehicle is an enhancement to their service. I do not dislike the machine it's the emproper use of it to make political gain which I despise.

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    Just to ask a question on my own and to carify what I believed to be a "quad" I thought a quad was a ladder truck, with hose, but no pump? I only say that because I thought that's what I was taught years ago in the academy and a neighboring dept had a quad and I do not recall a pump on it.

    Now for my comments on Quints, we have one and it works well for us. We are also combo so it makes it a bit easier. I feel for all my career brothers and sisters who are forced to work with less personnel because of municipalities who have "quint fever." We are very capable of using ours as bother ladder and engine, we added an additional engine on all structure related calls, the 3rd arriving engines stages off the fire block and its operator then reports to the truck to either pump or assist on the turntable if a additional career firefighter is needed in the bucket.

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    First, a Quad is everything a Quint is WITHOUT the aerial. No two ways about it. And for the record, some departments in Kentucky I know are still buying them.

    Second, the quint thing is, as many said before me, a cost saving measure in almost all the cases and a bad idea in most cases. Quints will work in small to medium size departments in 2 ways. In small departments they fit the bill for building in versatility in the rig. In medium sized departmens they work if every company has one (St. Louis) and they HAVE dedicated and thorough SOP's governing their operations. It barley works in St. Louis according to the guys I have poken with from there, because if the first company is doing Engine work, the next in Quint Co. picks up the Truck functions on arrival. Quints offer versatility in many ways by having all the capabilities in one rig and allowing those capabilities to arrive on the fire ground quickly (If its the 1st out rig for example). The down side is staffing. As I have said, most departments go to them because they can shut down an Engine Co. & a Truck Co. and replace them with a Quint Co. So, if they do that to save money why would they staff it with ATLEAST six (6) men? Answer: They won't. They will run them with 3 (Maybe 4) and tell the men on them to do their job anyway. To operate effectively on the fireground these rigs would need to have 6 to 8 men on them. Now, someone tell me a department that will staff a Quint Co. with 6 to 8 men. If there is one, God bless them because they are the rarity. Break it down like this and I come up with atleast 6: 2 men to stretch and operate ONE hoseline, notice I said ONE line, 2 men to perform forcible entry and search, 1 to run the rig and 1 for ventilation. THIS IS MINIMUM to say the least. Now, what about when this wonder rig rolls in first due? Does it spot as an Engine or a Truck? You can stretch hose but not ladders right? So they spot for the aerial and hope for the best. This will work on a SFD or even a small OMD with no appreciable set back, but what about the big OMD's and commercials? This is a factor because most Quint Co.'s out there are running 75' main aerials and minimum ground ladder compliments. Notice I said most. There are acceptions with some Quints having 100' aerials and/or towers, but these typicaly are run as Truck Co.'s that can generate their own water and not as the "wonder, do everything rig."

    As for LA county, they run 2 quints to my knowledge currently. Both are 75', 1 is a KME tiller and 1 is rearmount. A for running them as Truck Co.'s, I believe the rear mount is run as a first out company like an Engine Co. The tiller I am unsure about. But that is also the land of the half doors and light forces. Ha Ha. Kidding. I like the half door concept, really I do.

    Fred, You do realize St. Louis only kept 4 Hook and Ladder Co.'s in service? That would qualify in my book as eliminating dedicated Truck Co.'s.

    SHED376, an FDNY Rescue Co. is not like a St. Louis Quint Co. I wouldn't even draw a remote parallel.
    Last edited by STATION2; 07-21-2002 at 02:53 AM.
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    Being a former FF from Richmond,VA aka "Quint City,USA" I would have to agree with just about everything being said.

    The Quint was used here to reduce staffing by placing all our truck co's OOS(9 all together to include 2 from 2"Task Forces").A couple might been nice- to replace our entire fleet with 'em was a brain fart on a grand scale. It is /was a purely political move by Chief Jack McElfish to reduce staffing while keeping all the stations open(my understanding is that he might be heading back to GA-Gwinnett County I believe).

    We typically run 4 per Quint and the Chauffer can actually pump the darned thing and still operate the aerial,place ground ladders/ppv/vent/utility control-he/she better be in darned good shape-you will be pretty darned ragged by the time all is said and done.And to be sure-there is some skills degredation if not pure ignorance of what can be done with them.It sure is neat to be able to go "either way" if you have a quint-trying to figure out which Quint Co. is a Truck and which is an Engine and which should I be at 0300 on a working fire ain't so neat.

    I am sure there is a place for a properly staffed and spec'd Quint-but here there is neither. I will be happy when the Dept. "grows out" of the Quint thing and goes back to Engine and Truck Co's.

    By the way- I have said it before and I will say it again- It is by the skill and hard work of the field guys/gals that this Total Quint Concept works at all.With no thought at all placed in spec'ing these things out, no real SOP support,constant breakdowns-lack of maintenance, to a pathetic 8 hours of training each company received before placing them in service-it is the Blue Shirts who have made it work.

    Just my buck and .02 cents. I still get wrapped round the axle when somebody says "quint"....
    Last edited by RSchmidt; 07-21-2002 at 09:02 AM.
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    I will have to agree with most of you on the Quint's. They do reduce manpower! If they are used correctly, they can be a valuable tool for the fire service. However this depends on the members of the department. The administration and training bureaus can preach this and that to the members on how to operate with a Quint. If the members are willing to buy into this then it will surely fail. I do not beleive that St. Louis or Richmond use of Quints have failed. There are problems with the system but is does work. If the BC's would allow the Quints to function like to procedures are written then most of the problems would be solved. Any time a ride had hose on it the BC's will order them into an fire attack mode. They for the most part are why Truck work gets put on the back burner.

    Yes I have worked in Engine and Truck companies. There are wonderful to have a ride that has its on speciality. But with the times that we live in with budgets so low because the taxes are so high and the council members are always driving the residents to the burbs, it is going to contuine to happen. All the old large east coast cities are suffering.

    Most people of have written into these forums are disgruntled or former members who wouldn't be please if all they had to do was to report to the station at 8 AM and sit all day without turning a wheel and get their pay check every other Friday for just being a knot on the log type member. It is ashame that we have thses petty issues to voice, insteand of binding together and get this job safer less dangerous than it is. Members who quit and leave should not try to burn bridges. You may want to re-cross that brige again!

    Brothers and Sisters we need to work together for the cause insted of fighting every thing that is given to us.

    I still am in mourning for my lost Brothers who were murdered on September 11, 2001. God Bless them, their families, the FDNY and all firefighters world wide.

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    In my humbled opinon on Quints, is the example I take from my town.
    Our town runs with two Quints. Eng.1(Quint)Eng.3(Pump) and Rescue 1 respond to a First alarm. The Rescue carries one firefighter and the OIC,this does the scene survey,Eng.1 pulls in front of the building with two or three firefighters,and Eng.3 Stops at the hydrent and pulls the supply line to the Scene with 3 firefighters.

    Our Eng.2 is also a Quint.It is stationed on the other side of the town and if alarm comes in over there Eng.1(Quint)Eng.2(Quint)and Rescue 1 respond. This brings the same amount of firefighters to the scene.

    I agree that they are not the miracle machines some Dept. want them to be but in our town which is made of commercial and light to medium residential.I personally think the idea works well properly staffed.
    For instance,if you have a dedicated ladder,and it responds to a single story residential structure, with all occupents gone, you wouldnt need a ladder truck but you could use the hand lines of the Quints pumper capibilitys.Quints arnt the answer to all problems but they do serve a role in smaller Dept. such as mine.



    Just this explorer's thoughts on them.

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