1. #1
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    Unhappy Disturbing Photos of Colo. Air Tanker Crash

    Check Denver's News4 web site, www.RockyMountainNews.com for mid-air break-up photos of this terribile accident.
    Last edited by BoyToy74; 07-20-2002 at 05:09 PM.
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    News reports say NTSB investigators are looking into the possibility of Metal Fatigue as a possable sorce of this terribile accident. NTSB says photos will help in their investigation.
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    It is my humble opinion that the NTSB will find that metal fatigue was the cause of this crash as well as the C-130 earlier this wildfire season. These are old airframes, and they are being stressed to the max....flown to a location, loaded with retardant, flown over raging fire, which would heat up the metal skin, dropping the load (a rapid weight change), flown back to base, reloaded, and so on and so on.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    I agree with the NTSB metal fatigue may be the cause. Aluminum is known for its low fatigue tolerence,also usually behind metal fatigue case's are maitinence issues,as history has taught us.


    Just my two cents

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    Angry Another one!?!?

    Can somebody please tell me why we have old airplanes doing this job? Why doesn't the government order a hundred new air tankers for federal and private crews?
    I am no firefighter, just a fire buff and a scanner enthusiast.

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    . . . can you say, . . . $$$$$$$$$$$ ???

    Might get in the way of Congress giving themselves another pay raise!!!
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    Most of the aircraft used for firefighting are privately owned. The two aircrcaft that were lost were owned by a private contractor.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-20-2002 at 09:05 AM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Unhappy

    That PB4Y-2 was built in 1945, owned and maintained by Hawkins and Powers in Wyoming. They are under contract to provide aerial tankers for the Forest Service.

    Take into consideration the enormous stress loads undertaken when the aircraft unleashes it's water...and the flex of the wings that takes place when the aircraft suddenly loses all that weight...and you can understand why there are enormous metal fatigue factors here.

    A private fleet of modern Canadair CL-215's and 415's, subsidized by the goverment would make good sense, as well as provide some safer airframes for our brothers who fly these missions.

    It's time for the Forest Service to consider some high tech updates to our aerial attack methods....starting with providing newer aircraft. When do they plan to start? It's already too late!
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    CL-415s cost about $25 million a piece.

    A program that buys 3 a year would cost $75,000,000 annually; give them a 30 year lifespan which is probably reasonable, you could build up a fleet of 90 excellent aircraft.

    Like NJFSS said, you can probably develop some kind of private operator/federally subsidized or owned system.

    =======================
    For more perspective:

    $75,000,000 = 1.5% of the US Forest Service Budget, and they're not the only ones who fight wildland fires!

    USFS spends about $1-1/2 Billion of their $5 Billion dollar budget on fire control.

    http://www.usda.gov/agency/obpa/Budg...3budsum.htm#fs
    Last edited by Dalmatian90; 07-20-2002 at 10:35 AM.

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    Thanks for the good info Dal. As I posted on another thread, how much are the pilots lives worth?
    MGB&KY&Y-FDNY 9/11/01

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    For all our fire figthing, we only use helicopters. The biggest success has been with the Ericsson Sky-Cranes. We lease these off our brothers in the U.S. and have had huge success with them....

    Nobody likes to hear of these tragedies, but it will ALWAYS come down to $$$$.
    Luke

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    Dal
    A couple of links

    http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark...1/415/415.html reckons around $35 mil Canadian.

    http://www.bombardier.com/index.jsp?...en/3_0/3_0.jsp

    This one shows history, methods, and lists aircraft for sale.
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  13. #13
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    Gonzo wrote:
    (a rapid weight change)
    this was my opinion after the first crash and remains my #1 theory. The sudden loss of weight and rapid upward movement of the fuselage. I know the grounding of a fleet of air tankers at this point in time is tough on the ground troops but....

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    The PB4Y2 was the US Navy's version of the B-24 Liberator bomber. It had a conventional tail instead of the H-tail of the US Army Air Force's B24.

    The Navy used them for convoy escort and anti-submarine patrols in World War 2.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Here is a photo pf the PB4Y-2 Privateer
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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