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  1. #1
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    Angry Did You See This?!?! They Desecrated The Fdny!

    This is unbelievable. Here's the article and some E-mail addresses after it.

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/2002/7/24_Ppaper.html

    July 11, 2002
    News of the 9/11 tragedy in New York City traveled coast to coast and around the world. Everybody in uniform was a hero.


    But news of what really happened hasn't gotten beyond the Hudson River, for all practical purposes.


    Extensive investigations into the operations of the New York fire department, police department and the Port Authority police were conducted by the U.S. Naval War College and reported in the media, but mainly locally.


    That's because of a basic finding that the fire department, especially, was all but out of control. There was a lack of discipline and a predictable equipment failure, mainly of communication.


    Despite the fact that the department's leaders had concluded from the outset that the World Trade Center fires were "unfightable," crews were sent in with fighting it in mind.


    Scores of off-duty firefighters put on gear and rushed to the scene without telling anyone in authority they were there. On-duty personnel in some cases refused to stay away.


    Ambulances flocked to the scene. Port Authority police left their normal posts, despite orders to stay.


    The result was, among other things, that 400 ambulance calls went unanswered and the region's tunnels and bridges were left undefended in the immediate wake of what was an obvious terrorist attack. The police and fire operations refused to pay any attention to each other, as was their long-standing habit.


    That's one of the reasons helicopters were not used to rescue people trapped on the floors above where the airliners hit.


    Fire Department crews could not be communicated with. That's despite the fact that stranded people easily called families and so forth on cell phones.


    In other words, instead of performing heroically, the foot soldiers of the departments acted like a mob to the extent that most of those who died did so recklessly and in vain.


    It was a macho madhouse. Firefighters were trying to drag flame-fighting gear up 80 stories to fight a fire their superiors already had determined was beyond control. The same climb in the wake of the earlier Trade Center bombing had taken as much as four hours.


    Firefighters milled about in the tower still standing, trying to find someone to tell them what to do and not realizing the one next to it had collapsed.


    And what happened was not a surprise - or shouldn't have been.


    Earlier major disasters had found the firefighters defying their commanders to play cowboy. It seems that they all want to be where the action is, which is why they take such jobs in the first place. Nobody wants to stay behind to handle other, lesser emergencies.


    But it's childish behavior.


    The police accuse the firefighters of lacking the paramilitary discipline police agencies employ. And it seems they're right, at least in the case of New York City.


    It's too bad all concerned had to be exposed as inadequate in what was their time of glory. Yet they meant well and remain heroes in their own way, even though their bravery, too often, actually was foolhardy.


    NEIL MUNRO





    emails:
    Garry Gilbert
    Executive Editor
    745-4605
    garry.gilbert@oakpress.com

    Neil Munro
    Editor
    745-4620
    neil.munro@oakpress.com

    Susan Belniak Hood
    - Managing Editor
    745-4604
    susan.hood@oakpress.com

    Julie Jacobson
    Assistant Managing Editor - local news
    745-4632
    julie.jacobson@oakpress.com


    write away my friends, this is a disgrace!!!
    Last edited by 90Truck; 07-25-2002 at 09:26 AM.
    Matt G. Warminster Fire Dept. Station 90
    IAFF Local F-106

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    This guy is proof that snakes once mated with pigs.

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    I would love to hear him describe what should have happened in his opinion.
    I think the term MUTT applies, and hope the public safety community in Michigan gives him hell.
    Were their lessons to be learned, of course, our brothers gave in an attempt to save lives and are heros and professional.

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    Default Offduty

    Check out the forum in off duty, "Michigan Mutt Action"
    **************************
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    Default Defending the Brotherhood...

    This is the body of the email I sent to Neil "Mutt" Munro of the Oakland Press...

    Until you have donned the gear, crawled down a long smoky hallway with zero visibility, attempted to breathe life back into the lifeless body of a child or respond to something horrific, don't you dare criticize the firefighters of this country!

    What happened on September 11th was a story of heroism. If the members of the FDNY did not go into the towers, thousands more would have perished. ...and then you would have probably written an editorial about the cowardice of the FDNY.


    Just for the record, Neil.... I am a firefighter and damn proud of it!


    Captain/EMT Ron Ayotte
    Marlborough Fire Department
    Group 1, Engine Company 1.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    This is what happens when our illustrious press grabs on to bits and pieces of a report that I understand is several hundred pages, and uses the selected statements, most likely out of context, to sell soap.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
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    Originally posted by CJMinick390
    This is what happens when our illustrious press grabs on to bits and pieces of a report that I understand is several hundred pages, and uses the selected statements, most likely out of context, to sell soap.
    They are trying to sell papers...and the only things to do with "mutt" papers like this is to housebreak puppies or wrap garbage!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Thumbs down such a shame

    I pray to everything holy that one of the widows doesnt' get a hold of that. i can't believe this guy. maybe if his boss gets enough emails he'll fire him. o, yeah, you can't email mr. munro due to the fact that the coward cancled his email address. guess he couldn't take the...HEAT?? hehehe. type away my friends. be safe. peace.
    Matt G. Warminster Fire Dept. Station 90
    IAFF Local F-106

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    Imagine that, Neil Muttro's email is cancelled. These weren't though. This is the management team of the company that owns the Oakland Press. http://21stcenturynewspapers.com/mang_team.asp

    Email all of these guys too, make them feel a little pain for this moron.

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    I agree with everybody that this information has no business in the press. It has no business being public information, and in fact, it has no business being discussed outside the respective departments. HOWEVER- IF this is actually true (I'm inclined to believe it, but not to the extent reported) then this needs to be addressed immediately within the department. Not only there, but here, and where you work too.

    Two problems though:
    1. When you are trained to do something and see what needs to be done, it is difficult to not do it. Even when you are oredered not to.

    2. In some cities there are laws that require "open govenment." Meaning the Governement is for the people by the people and the people have every right to look at the documents and such the the govenment produces. Meaning- if this is Post Incident Report, eventaully someone (the press) will request a copy. It can be made public just like that. Stupid? Yes. Something we can do about it? NO.

    In this day and age of the press trying to get the latest scoop, be the most informative, go live on the scene, and hype every incident possible to improve ratings, this is just another ploy to get us to buy the paper.

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    Boney T, that was a good post. You've definitely got a point with the problem No. 1 that you listed. I've been in that situation where I've been riding with an inexperienced officer who didn't issue any orders upon arrival at an incident. You see the problem, you know what needs to be done, and you do it. Unfortunately, in extreme instances like the WTC, that "just do it" mind set can get you in trouble. That incident was so huge that no one person could be aware of everything that was going on and get a real handle on what was happening.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
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    This was my response... I sent it to all the addresses but the one for Munro was rejected.....hmmmm

    Anyone wanting to use my body of the letter...feel free.
    ____________________

    I am outraged at the commentary written by Neil Munro. What planet does he live on? How dare him attack the valiant efforts of our brothers and sisters.

    The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon were acts of war. All firefighters across the nation were immediately put on alert. ALL AIRCRAFT (including MEDAVAC) were grounded. All firefighters in FDNY were called to report for duty. Then the unthinkable happened. The first tower collapsed, killing thousands and brining more emergency responders to the site. Then it happened again....the second tower came down.

    Sure...there were holes in the response system and sure mistakes were made by all involved...including the precious media! The collapses cripled the Administrative Staff of the FDNY as well as dozens of key command staff. It took time to reorganize the ranks and regroup for an assault on the devastation. It had nothing to do with "wanting to be where the action is." It had everything to do with doing our job and that job is to provide emergency services. It had everything to do with losing 343 brother firefighters in a matter of minutes. Fathers lost sons, brothers lost brothers, nephews lost uncles, cousins lost cousins, sons lost fathers...some of them passing on together doing what they loved to do.

    I believe firefighters "milling around the towers" can be associated with shock and post traumatic stress. I have to ask Mr. Munro if he has ever lost a relative suddenly or has he ever been to a fire and seen people die right in front of him? Well...multiply that by 343 and then re-think his ridiculous comments. Additionally, the communication system failed and did so miserably. These men and women were called back to duty. They could reach no one via phone or radio so the all reported to where they believed they were needed most.

    What exacly is flamefighting gear? I can't find that in the dictionary. What they were doing is carrying equipment up that was designed to protect them an assist in suppression efforts as well as rescue of trapped victims. Mr. Munro....do you know anything about High Rise Firefighting?

    Have you read the personal accounts and interviews and seen the taped stories of my brothers from FDNY? There niche' is high rise firefighting. That is what they do. In an instant they were face with a 100 + story building that had 20 floors fully involved in fire within about 2 minutes (according to witnesses). Then....suddenly, there was another building of the same size with the same fire situation. Never has any fire department in this nation faced such a challenge. As firefighters resonded their only thoughts were: #1 There are a lot of people needing help #2 This is the big one...God Help Me! When they arrived there was no doubt in their mind that they were going to help people and then put out the fire. Well...they succeeded in helping people but not in extinguishing the fire. Sure...their commanders may have known in thier mind that the fire was beyond control, but they were going to make an attempt to do something with it until as many people as possible were saved. So...yes..they may have dived into the situation knowing there was not a good outcome pending, but they did the best they could with what they had. Communication sucked....but....Is that the fault of the firefighters? No...it is a system problem...and they again did the best they could with what they had. Most of them never reveived the message from command that this was a "loser" and "back out" so they kept doing as they were trained.

    The analogy by the police department is taken with a grain of salt. Apparently there is sour grapes between the agencies. It that the fault of the 343 brothers that lost their lives? I think not!

    Mr. Munro....Where did you watch the events from? I watched from over 1000 miles away in my Florida office. I imagine you watched from your TV in your plush office somewhere. Did you have friends there? I did....and he is one of the luck ones.

    Bottom line here is this....You commentary (while you are entitled to your opinion) is out of line. You have spit on the memories of those that bravely did just thier job and saved thousands of people in doing so. This is the worst firefighter loss in the history of firefighting. You owe the members of the fire service an appology. You were not there and obviously don't have all the facts...so....get a life Mr. Munro....
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    Very well said, captstanm1. That was much better than what I sent!

    I wonder when editorial writing went from significant commentary to attempts to incite sensationalism. Who is this guy to say FDNY was "out of control." He presents this statement as fact, not opinion. Anyone who wasn't there and knows nothing of firefighting will take these statements seriously because of the way they are presented. This guy is obviously not a firefighter and has not earned the right to make such statements. He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but before you throw stones, you should earn the right to throw them, even if it means you have to get off your keester and do some research about what you are criticizing. I seriously doubt this guy did anything other than read the articles from the New York press and that were posted on FH.com. I'm sure he didn't read the entire Naval War College report. He probably also doesn't even begin to understand the concept of sacrificing self for the good of others. It's rather sad, really.
    Last edited by CJMinick390; 07-25-2002 at 01:30 PM.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
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  14. #14
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    Thumbs up Bravo captstanm1!! Bravo!!!!!!

    Very well thought out, intellegent, insightful comments.

    Thank you Brother!

    Ken

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    Thumbs down

    I guess that the Oakland Press cannot take criticism...I e-mailed all of the parties involved, all of them were returned!

    A variation of the famous "Fish Cheer" by 60's rock band "Country Joe and the Fish"...

    Gimme an "M"

    Gimme a "U"

    Gimme a "T"

    Gimme a "T"

    Gimme an "S"

    What's that spell....MUTTS!
    What's that spell....MUTTS!!
    What's that spell....MUTTS!!!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    ...and cowards.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
    I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

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    Angry Their rebuttle...ha

    And then to insult us with a lousy excuse for an explanation for what they wrote... Crap by paper
    ...and expect us to be like, well ok. They almost offer an apology, but then they go back and back everything up again. Get Bent! Man, the thing that ****es me off the most is that the Constitutional right that gives us the right to be here, discussing everything under the moon, also gives the right for MUTTS to flap their traps too.

    Ain't America Grand.

    Just keep those happy @$$ journalists quite in their little airconditioned office, safe from the world, and keep REAL Americans out patroling the streets. Enought Said.

    Be Safe, Drew
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    Angry The cost of a free press


    Here's what I sent the "mutt". Though he'll probably never see it.


    The truth is even someone who thinks as highly of himself as I'm sure you do cannot become an expert in Fire science, Firefighting operations, Emergency Management, EMS, Tactical Communications and Operational Risk Management by reading bits and pieces of a report. Don't tell me that you read or are qualified to interpret the whole thing. We both know you didn't and aren't. Say what you will sir, but even though a million people all over the Country think you're a loudmouth, headline grabbing vermin of the highest order, I'll guarantee if you are trapped in a burning tonight, the brave personnell of the Pontiac Fire Dept will risk their lives trying to save your butt.

    Some people dedicate thier lives to bettering thier communities, others live off the tragedy and suffering of their fellowman. There will always be creatures like you around, reminding us the the cost of a free press.
    Fiahguy
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    Proudly helping to protect my town

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    I blasted all of them this morning too. My main issue was the assasination of character that I felt had taken place. The findings of the report are what they are. The lessons learned on 9/11 have to be communicated. The only way for those brothers to not have died in vain is for us to learn the lessons and go forward, honoring their sacrifice and memory. As painful as this must be for the FDNY brothers that remain, the fact is that on 9/11 they had nothing to go on from past experience, none of us would have. They did what we all would have done, what we thought was the best thing at the time. I believe we should stand up and fight any time someone questions our motives and character after something like this. The mass rebuttal to the Oakland Press was appropriate and forced them to change their tone. We cannot, however, ever hope to get better at what we do if we reject completely every report that says things might be done a different way.

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    Hey everyone, we must have done something right. Their second piece is more of a concession than I ever expected to see. We must have hit some nerves somewhere.
    Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
    Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

    These statements are mine and mine alone
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    Just FYI:

    The newspaper management has reviewed the messages on these forums as well as receieved 'hundreds' of e-mails in the last day or so, which prompted the response issued today.

    Thanks
    WebTeam

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    Angry MUTT

    You know anyone write something like this is just as bad as the attackers,But I guess he really don't understand the feelings and thoughts going thru your mind.I guess most of the FDNY Firefighters really didn't know what was going on at the time.They were doing what they were trained to do.And whoever let this article get published need there brain examined.This is a good example of a MUTT......



    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB-KTF
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    It sometimes pay's to drop a dime.

    Dave
    FTM, PTB, RFB

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    Angry Unbelievable

    I along with many others am very upset with what this jerk had to say about the FDNY and their actions on September 11th. How could he even have the nerve to write such a piece of crap. I hope he gets fired asap. I have a cousin who is FDNY member and I don't consider what he did a "cowboy act". He helped save many lives that day as did many others. These guys did what they were suppose to do, help save lives. The comments made were uncalled for to say the least. Did this guy think of the family members who lost a loved one when he wrote this untruth. Ask anyone who was there that day and see what their responce is. Not what I read in that article I assure you. This is an outrage and a discrace to all who we lost and the survivors. FDNY: THE BRAVEST. FOREVER IN OUR HEARTS.

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    So..........The Oakland Press got to our Brothers and Sisters eh?

    Remember this.......the entire incident was one the FDNY had no previous knowledge of, yet little leaks indicate someone did. So in essence someone has to take the fall, remember the Movie......"Wag the Dog?"

    Also interesting is information such as this has come about through NYPD sources before, and I suspect this time as well. Their Ex-Commissioner took a beating relating to his non-action, and boasting great things later. Their loses while memorable (a personal friend lost both sons, one FDNY the other ESU) puts them in a position to justify anything they did or didn't do that day.

    Smoke rises, so does heat, and flames vent if able to, vertically rather then horizontially, "their Helicoptors" would have done diddly in a roof rescue attempt. Too much Chuck Norris I imagine?
    "All gave some...Some gave all!"
    9/11/01 Lest we forget!
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