Show me a fire department that has SOP's to do both simultaneously. No one does. They all have first rig is an engine second is a ladder etc. So there is no reason to staff as a dual unit.
So coming up on air and saying quint four onscene we're an ENGINE woiuld be confusing?
So most firfighters can only understand how to be a truckee or a pumper guy, but could never figure ut both tasks?
So if that is so, who other than LA City runs the ladder out of the station in front of the pumper?
How is that possible? If it is a quint, it has the ladders, aerial etc just like a ladder, it has the water, hose, etc of a pumper, so how does it only do half a job?
The downtown boys bought them right? Pretty hard for the blue shirts to use something they don't own. Your fleet prior to quints was a bunch of worn out junk.
Results 21 to 40 of 51
08-17-2002, 11:26 AM #21
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
08-17-2002, 02:57 PM #22
- Join Date
- Feb 1999
- BOONSBORO, MD. USA
WE DISCUSSED THE QUINT CONCEPT WHEN WE ORDERED OUR TRUCK. THIS DEVELOPED INTO QUITE THE DISCUSSION.MY OPINION WAS A TRUCK IS A TRUCK AND AN ENGINE IS AN ENGINE AND THEY CAN'T DO BOTH. UNLESS YOU HAVE A TEN PERSON CAB AND FULL STAFFING TO PERFORM BOTH FUNCTIONS, IT WOULDN'T WORK. ST.LOUS WORKS WELL SINCE THEY HAVE MOSTLY QUINTS. WHEN YOU RUN FIRST OUT OF YOUR STATION FOR A STRUCTURE FIRE AND HAVE A QUINT WITH NO 2ND DUE TRUCK COMING TRUCK WORK SUFFERS BECAUSE THE QUINT CREW IS NOW AN ENGINE COMPANY. AND IF THEY TAKE THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING THEY BLOCK OUT THE 2ND DUE TRUCK. YOU CAN'T RUN THE PUMPS AND OPERATE THE AERIAL AT THE SAME TIME BY THE SAME PERSON.WE NOW HAVE A TRUCK, NO QUINT.
08-17-2002, 06:47 PM #23
- Join Date
- Feb 2001
- MI. USA
Sheeshh where is Larry (m***) when you need him..
Time for another cheers Brother's and Sister's.
FTM, PTB, RFB
forgot to do my spell check agian.
Last edited by FF.1205; 08-17-2002 at 06:54 PM.
08-17-2002, 11:08 PM #24
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
Not even one function at a time?
Can you or anyone list a single FD that by written SOP has onequintdo two functions at the same time with a crew of 3 or 4? THEY DON'T EXIST! So it really makes this endless staffing arguement MUTE!
100% is mostly?
Can't the officer call the next in engine and swap roles? Can't an engine company take what it doesn't carry offthe quint and act as a ladder? They are both at the same call right?
< AND IF THEY TAKE THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING THEY BLOCK OUT THE 2ND DUE TRUCK.>
Gee, don't the officer's have a clue what they are doing?
< YOU CAN'T RUN THE PUMPS AND OPERATE THE AERIAL AT THE SAME TIME BY THE SAME PERSON>
Why not? we do it lots. All the controls are right there! Dang, hook up a supply line and throttle up, what else is there 99% of the time?
It seems many of these arguements assume no one has any experience and hasn't spent any time thinking about application of the rig. I bet quint towns don't burn down.
08-19-2002, 09:14 AM #25Originally posted by erniefire
I bet quint towns don't burn down.
Now, all we have left is an engine and a tower with no buildings to protect.
Boy, did we learn our lesson.
08-19-2002, 10:33 AM #26
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
- Richmond, VA
I hate to state the obvious here, but......
If the "QUINT CONCEPT" is so darn appealing, so darn terriffic, and so darn affordable, why aren't more departments doing it?
Face it. Accept it. Learn to love it.
TQC will not work. The whole concept has been presented as a way to reduce staffing. Firefighters will tolerate alot-they will not tolerate yet another way to reduce staffing. I don't care how shiny, how many gadgets, how many feet of hose, how many thousands of gallons of h2o it can carry.
Nevernind that Quints themselves are a so-so piece of apparatus. Most juridstictions put the Quint into a "Truck" slot and use them as such. Besides 'Quint" isn't as tough sounding as "Engine" or "Truck".
Quints are a hopeless fad....and like 8 Tracks and Cassettes will eventually go into oblivion.
Disclaimer: Apologies to any of the I.A.C.O.J. who still have 8Tracks in their POV's.
Last edited by RSchmidt; 08-19-2002 at 10:35 AM.Rob
"Well done is better than well said" - B. Franklin
05-06-2003, 05:59 AM #27
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
- DeSoto, Missouri, USA
What I have seen with the total quint concept has been very possitive.I am a volunteer and live 30 miles south of St.Louis and have ridden with them a couple of times. The city went total quint in 1988, and have just purchased their second round of quints. They operate 30 75ft. engine co. manned with 4 firefighter, 4 hook@ladder co. (2) 125ft. aerials, and (2) 105ft. aerial platforms manned with 4 firefighters, and 2 heavy rescues manned with 6 firefighters. I am not for sure on this but I beleive on a first alarm assingment you get 5 engines, (75ft) 1 H@L, 1HR. The first in engine is the fire supprssion,2nd is truck, 3rd secondary water supply, 4th assist the first engine, 5th is the rapid intervention team, H@L does truck work as well. Rescue assists where they are needed. This (i think) is how it works, and is like this no matter where you go in the city. So on the way out the door you know (on due status) what your job will be when you arrive at the scene. One other note, the attack lines come off the back of the apparatus, so the first in engine pulls past the building so the second engine or truck has the front of the building. They also can have 6 aerials in operation with just 1 alarm with 30 firefighters, and 3 chiefs on scene, not just flowing water, but having multiple areials on the building for secondary means of egress on the roof and upper floors in the buildings. The question about you can't run the ladder and the pump at the same time. You can if you spec the apparatus with aerial controls and the pump panel which is what St.Louis speced on the new ones. This way the engineer can get water in the lines, then set the areial up to the second floor windows (secondary egress) roof, or to protect exposures on either side to the fire building, with out waiting for a truck co. to arrive at the scene and set up. But just like anything else in the fire service if you don't train for it then it will not work. The St.Louis Fire Dept. does an excellant job with cross training all their people to do both engine and truck work. If there is a way to get something done firefighters no matter where, will always find away to get it done! It starts with training and more training.
05-06-2003, 09:11 AM #28
- Join Date
- Feb 2003
brunswick hills township fire department runs a quint with a 105ft arial(sp?)
cost a good $680000FireSarge
"Any man willing to die in my place is my brother. Any man willing to turn and run is my enemy. Which will you be?"
05-06-2003, 09:52 AM #29
- Join Date
- Jun 2002
- Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
Not for everyone.....
P.G. County Md. has about 90 engines, 22 Trucks/Towers, 12 Heavy Rescues, AND 1 QUINT. The quint has a minimum of 4 all the time, and runs from a combination station where volunteers run the engines. That station had a Tower Ladder that was destroyed in an accident and they expect to replace it, but for now the quint is running from there. I expect to see the quint moved to a different station once the new Tower Ladder goes in service at the quint's present location. Speaking with several people who have worked on the quint, I am under the impression that it is not liked by most who use it. Stay Safe....Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
In memory of
Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006
IACOJ Budget Analyst
I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.
05-06-2003, 10:44 AM #30
- Join Date
- May 1999
- Here, There, Everywhere
I formerly worked for a department that had a bastardized quint concept. Many in that area do. I now work for a Dept that uses Engine/Trucks exclusively.
I spent a majority of my time in my former Dept on a Quint.
I'll address those who don't understand why a Quint is really only half a truck or half and engine.
I've always been fond of the phrase: "A Jack of all trades and a Master of none."
Yes erniefire the rig has hose just like an Engine but is are the hose beds easily accessible? Are there options on hose loads and amount? Can the rig perform a backstretch just as well as a forward lay? What if you had to perform a reverse lay??? doesn't that take your ladder away from the building where it was to perform as a Ladder. Does the driver have all the nessesary appliances and adapters easily accessible or have their numbers been reduced and buried in the back to make room for the extrication gear or fans?
Yes erniefire the rig has portable ladders just like a Truck but are there the same amount of options? Did the specs call for a 3 section ladder vs. a two section? (for those who have never tried the difference is very noticable in raising and extending a 3-section vs. 2-section.) And just like the hose are they easily accesible or do you need to push hose and other tools on the back of the rig out of the way. Are they mounted so high to make removal difficult for all but the tallest of FFs?
These are all important points but the biggest problem with the Quint concept has nothing to do with the rig itself. I'll address your proposal that someone off an Engine grab the Truck tools from the quint or operate the ladder and perform the nessesary truck skills. My former dept operated like that.
You showed up and got your assignment right before you were expected to perform it. Problems...It created delays, you couldn't size up the building with your specific duties in mind until the last minute. The size up for VES the rear of a building is much different than forcible entry of the front, or stretching a handline or search of the 1st floor.
After you recived your assignment the officer told the members what tools to take or everyone took whatever they wanted. Either way it was a half-*** way of attacking a fire. It was like a pick-up football game you showed up and the officer handed out assignments like a quarterback giving out passing routes for recievers. Not very professional!
And the biggest issue of all is operational proficiency. I tried for years to maintain competencies in all skills Engine and Truck alike. What I found it is very difficult to do this. Most depts that have special operations have those highly motivated and skilled members on a Rescue, Squad or whatever you call it. Most guys are good at Engine operations and the Truck skills fall by the wayside.
And as for your suggestion that the Engine guys grab the Truck tools off the Quint and go to work...how often do the Eng guys train in the use of the tools? How often do they practice Searching? Laddering? Use of the Aerial? Forcible Entry?? etc.? They don't check the tools out on a daily basis, they don't regualarly operate as a Truck at a fire and this WILL negatively affect operations and possibly lead to increased injuries and maybe even deaths.
Truck operations are much too important to delegate them to some random Engine company that may or may not be proficent in operating as one.
Fires occur far less than in years past. It should be important to realize that a consistant group of members deticated to Truck skills is much more preferable than to some supposed flexibility gained by use of Quints. There is NO argument that makes sense for replacing Engines/Trucks with fewer Quints and fewer members. The only thing that will result is fewer members on scene and those that do arrive will take longer to arrive. And since you needed to take more companies to get the same compliment of personell more areas of your city are now left without protection.
I don't see how anyone but the bean counters would like this!!
05-06-2003, 11:57 AM #31
FFFRED - YOU DA MAN!
(and in case anyone is wondering, FFFRED is NOT my alterego)
05-06-2003, 04:22 PM #32
Only 2 words to describe the concept.
05-06-2003, 06:03 PM #33
Baltimore had two Simon/LTI's we bought from a contract for St Louis. I personally like them because we used them as Engines with a lot of versatility. They had their drawback but I think the advantages far outweighed them.
05-07-2003, 09:46 PM #34
FFRED, couldn't have said better!IAFF Local 2665
05-23-2003, 11:42 AM #35
- Join Date
- Apr 2003
“I formerly worked for a department that had a bastardized quint concept. Many in that area do.”
So based upon on FD’s or several bastardized concepts no one could figure out how to use a Quint? So would a non bastardized quint concept work? Does anything bastardized work? It sounds to me like you have a firefighter and officer problem not a quint problem.
“I now work for a Dept that uses Engine/Trucks exclusively.”
So everything is all better now right? You don’t have to worry about ladders, using tools, or that big scary ladder right?? When you went through basic training was it just truck or engine, not overall firemanship? Odds are you were trained in everything, but got to the station and have been indoctrinated that you are only capable of doing one task or the other. So is it your or their departments members who aren’t trainable or is it the apparatus? So when you operate the engines and trucks in a bastardized way they don’t work well either right?
”I'll address those who don't understand why a Quint is really only half a truck or half and engine.”
Half huh? Yours didn’t have a 1250 to 2250 pump like an engine? Didn’t it have an entire ladder just as wide and just as wide as a ladder truck? If not, why not? If not who spec’d the truck? You do write specs to do the job properly?
”the rig has hose just like an Engine but is are the hose beds easily accessible?”
Gee I’m looking at one right now that has 2600 feet of 5 inch and 3000 feet of attack lines in the form of 13 preconnects, does you engine pack that? They are all loaded from the ground, no climbing the rig on the attack lines and the supply bed is loaded without raising the ladder. Clean shot design no turntable in the way. Didn’t your bastardized FD take the time to spec what you wanted? You didn’t ask for a dear e-one or pierce did you and let them spec the rig???? Did you? Sure sounds like it.
“Are there options on hose loads and amount?”
Um. It will lay dual 1300 foot five inch lines, or one 2600 foot line, or perform a drive by lay and have four 5 inch supply lines. It has dual 5 inch ldh monitors for reverse lays. Has dual carlin valves so no one has to even stay at the hydrant, just like every other department. I’m sure your engine can’t do any of that right? I’m sure your bastardized management laid things out right correct?
“Can the rig perform a backstretch just as well as a forward lay?”
Sure without anyone getting out of the cab or without leaving a hydrant man for a wet lay. Does you engine do that? One or two ldh lines just like your rigs right? We carry the same amount of hose as you right?
“What if you had to perform a reverse lay???”
Why would you? I have hydrants every 300 to 5200 feet just like everyone else, what are the advantages of a reverse lay. Make your hydraulic case, what is it I need to do with a reverse lay? How often would I be doing this? Make your case. Dual 5 inch lines in a forward lay off a 35 psi hydrant 300 feet is the same as you making a reverse lay and pumping a single 5 inch line at 185 psi the limit of your supply hose. (you do use 5 inch right?) I get 3233 gpm to my 2250 gpm hydrant rated pump. So tell me who is more likely to have a hose failure the 35 psi line or the 185? Sure we can do it but why?
“doesn't that take your ladder away from the building where it was to perform as a Ladder.”
Only if you are stupid enough to park it at the hydrant. Only if your FD only has one ladder. Now let’s get real, how many times have you raised the ladder at a structure fire this month? FDNY raises their ladder only 361 times out of 10,000 runs. So go ahead and tell me how busy your FD is. And how often would you have a reason to do a reverse lay. Don’t your bastardized officers realize that they are running a ladder and might want to use it? It takes people thinking to use any rig properly. Dual supply lines and there isn’t a need for a reverse lay, EVER!
“Does the driver have all the nessesary appliances and adapters easily accessible or have their numbers been reduced and buried in the back to make room for the extrication gear or fans?”
Of course he does, we spec’d our own apparatus to do what we want to do. Can we hook five supply lines into the rig? Yes. Do we have all the fittings to use the steamer or 2 ½” connection, Yes . Do you? 99% of our fittings are on the discharge or suction or supply line you are going to use or directly below them. The supply bed goes 5 inch storz all the way down to 2 ½ inch and even has a double male in a universal reverse lay hook ups and a 2 ½ inch gate valve. That is both lines. So we can forward or reverse lay with the same end of the hose to anything in our state. All four LDH discharges flow at least 1000 gpm and two flow 2250 gpm and reduce down to 1 inch nst and every step along the way. Adapters and fitting have never been an issue even working with fire departments 240 and 300 miles from home. You see our dual rear 6 inch suctions go through all the thread sizes, so when the department with 5 inch hose with 4 ½” threads wanted to lay us a line it coupled, when the department with 4 inch threads wanted us to pump a line we could do it. When the 4 inch with 3 ½” couplings arrived we supplied it.
”Yes the rig has portable ladders just like a Truck but are there the same amount of options?”
Well the one I’m looking at has two 35 foot 2 flys, two 24 foot 2 flys, two 10 foot folding, two 16 foot roof and racks to hold a pair of 50 foot extensions if it is ever needed. You know the fire department can spec what they want or buy off the shelf, we spec’d what we wanted and didn’t take the minimum standard demo. Isn’t that your whole issue you bought a dear pierce or dear E-one, etc and paid the price, right? You get what you ask for in your bastardized operation.
“Did the specs call for a 3 section ladder vs. a two section?”
Heck no, two who wants a three? You didn’t buy threes did you?
“(for those who have never tried the difference is very noticable in raising and extending a 3-section vs. 2-section.)”
Our guys are smarter than that, 90 pounds difference.
“And just like the hose are they easily accessible”
On dual ladder racks that lower to 36 inches in height or pull off the rear from the same rack, access has never been an issue. After all you did take time to spec your rig to match your firefighters, didn’t you?
“or do you need to push hose and other tools on the back of the rig out of the way.”
Nah, that would be stupid, no one would spec a truck like that, we can deploy our jaws or cutter in 30 seconds and not hook up a thing, deploy two tripod lights and/or 5 cord reel flood lights in 10 seconds, all 18,000 watts of flood lights can be switched on from the cab with the vehicle in motion, draft in 15 seconds with one guy, put 9 guys in scba on arrival with in cab mounts and three more out of compartments, Air chisel in 15 seconds without hooking up a thing or any other air tool, sawzall in 15 seconds, place two 2000 gpm deck guns in service on the way in, in motion or CAFS streams, we have five saws ready to go, air bags deployable in 15 seconds all hooked up nothing to screw with, a 5000 gallon drop tank too set up for one man deploy, we can lift 42 feet vertically up to 400 feet from the rig with soft hose in the form of a preconnect line deployable in less than 2 minutes with just two firefighters, we can operate a deck gun off tank water through a 2 inch smooth bore tip with 250 feet of reach for 8 minutes, we can shuttle water with our quints through the 10 inch side dumps, we pack 12 salvage covers, a ton of cribbing, pack 45 feet of hard suction, have dual rear ldh suctions, two smoke ejectors, complete electronic accountability system, 12 pike poles, in cab thermal imagers, in cab computer preplans and audible directions to the fire call, etc. Can you do any of that with your ladder or engine? Nah, I doubt it. Like you said, you bastardized your operations so I’m sure your spec’s were just as bad.
“ Are they mounted so high to make removal difficult for all but the tallest of FFs? “
36 inches is lower than our shortest firefighters. Why would anyone mount them high?
”These are all important points but the biggest problem with the Quint concept has nothing to do with the rig itself.”
It doesn’t? Then why did you spend so much time on it? Does your engine carry 2000 gallons of water like our quint? Do you run CAFS? Have 220 gallons of foam in four tanks? Do you have two foam systems? Can you place four master streams in service in 3 minutes with your 4 man crew?
”You showed up and got your assignment right before you were expected to perform it.”
Gee, and you can’t think on your feet? You can’t work as a team? So your department was a joke and you blame the apparatus? I don’t get it. FDNY drives into buildings according to this months fire house going to non-sense calls so we should all not run engines right because some crews do stupid stuff, lie, never wear seat belts, etc?
“Problems...It created delays, you couldn't size up the building with your specific duties in mind until the last minute.”
You can’t adapt? Sounds like a personal problem not a quint problem. We show up and have been doing ladder and engine functions simultaneously for 8 years. It ain’t a big deal, I guess we have much better management and apparatus than you. Does your traditional ladder and engine company fall apart when asked to do something at the last minute also?
“The size up for VES the rear of a building is much different than forcible entry of the front, or stretching a handline or search of the 1st floor.”
Gosh that all sounds good and you are doing all of this how often? We are lucky to get maybe 32 guys on a structure fire first alarm response. NFPA sets the minimum standards for response and staffing at what 15, right? So it sounds you live in a world were only one truck responds and has to work alone, we don’t if we did we can do all of those things with one rig instantly on arrival. So the front guy can’t figure out how to do the back guys job? Everything sounds like a lack of training issue and quints or ladders shouldn’t make any difference if you have untrained people
”After you received your assignment the officer told the members what tools to take or everyone took whatever they wanted.”
So you work for a free lance fire department, wonderful and what does that have to do with quints? If you operate your engines and trucks that way you’ll have the same lousy results! So doing whatever you want sounds fun!
“Either way it was a half-*** way of attacking a fire. It was like a pick-up football game you showed up and the officer handed out assignments like a quarterback giving out passing routes for recievers. Not very professional!”
Ok so you’ve made it clear you work for a half assed fire department that is not very professional, so you probably shouldn’t be giving quint advice on a forums board, because you have made it quite clear you haven’t a clue how to run or operate on a fire ground or spec a truck.
”And the biggest issue of all is operational proficiency. I tried for years to maintain competencies in all skills Engine and Truck alike. What I found it is very difficult to do this.”
Not all FD’s have that problem, certainly not an issue here. So you can’t figure out how to do tow jobs, really one job, that of a firefighter. You’ve made that clear over and over again.
“Most depts that have special operations have those highly motivated and skilled members on a Rescue, Squad or whatever you call it. Most guys are good at Engine operations and the Truck skills fall by the wayside.”
Most huh? Oh bull, only if you allow it. There are no requirements or skills to maintain to keep membership or employment? You get what you put into the job, no expectations you get the end result, certainly not a quint issue.
”And as for your suggestion that the Engine guys grab the Truck tools off the Quint and go to work...how often do the Eng guys train in the use of the tools?”
The issue is this, if that is how you operate why aren’t you training for it? Every rig in my department is outfitted exactly alike, I guess we’ve been thinking about how to do the job professionally too long. The free lance approach you speak of didn’t work well in Worchester, Lake Worth, Houston, or any of the high profile LODD departments, we choose not to use it hear, but if you are happy with it and want blame your quints, that is cool. So you don’t train either, greaaaaaat!
“How often do they practice Searching?”
No more than once a week, all rigs are imager equipped and all buildings are pre-planned. What do you think is the right amount tice a career to match the number of times in a career you actually find a victim?
We only own four types, they are all the same. Rarely need them actually. Same goes for the big stick. We know where to park and where and when to throw a ladder. Don’t you? Come on, you aren’t really telling us you don’t know how to throw a ladder are you?
“Use of the Aerial?”
I’m sure our ladder goes up on 80% of our calls because we make it a habit even on auto accidents to use it as a light tower, because it has 6500 watts of flood light on the end, we commonly drop the riggers and place the ladder even when no fire is visible. When you have the street on the customers request you might as well take the opportunity to train.
“ Forcible Entry??”
We we unconventional tools that will open everything so we have no entry issues.
“They don't check the tools out on a daily basis,”
Actually we do, with every rig being the same what is the big deal? Why don’t you?
“they don't regualarly operate as a Truck at a fire”
So how many fires are you, per shift, per station running a year. You know total number of calls divided by X number of stations, divided by days you are actually on duty equals what? How many of those did the ladder go up and required a heavy smoke search? Now tell us that you have so much fire activity that you are relying on it alone for sharp ladder skills or engine skills. We need a good laugh. FDNY’s numbers are: 6.5 fires not structure fires per station per month. They are 4 times busier than the next major metro FD. Most fires are put out with water not ladders, right?
“ and this WILL negatively affect operations and possibly lead to increased injuries and maybe even deaths. “
Nah, train the way you play, get off you *** and do your job, stay sharp, equip for the job at hand and practice. Care to tell us where all these deaths are occuring?
”Truck operations are much too important to delegate them to some random Engine company that may or may not be proficent in operating as one. “
If the firefighters are not proficient, maybe they shouldn’t be firefighters. If that were true fires wouldn’t go out in all the departments that do truck operations with engines because they don’t own ladders. What department on earth has more ladders or the same number as engines? NONE So do the engines always wait for the ladder to vent, and force entry? How many fires really require entry? How many really require vertical ventilation? Thousands of fires are fought daily without either. Horizontal ventilation by far during attack out numbers vertical. What percentage f your fires are you searching? What percentage ever find a victim? Compare that with the number of times your search creates the only possible life hazard. Benefit and risk…seems out of wack.
”It should be important to realize that a consistant group of members deticated to Truck skills is much more preferable than to some supposed flexibility gained by use of Quints.”
Oh give it a rest, dedicated? It is their job to be competent in all basic firefighter skills. A consistent group huh? You mean, no one is ever filling in for a guy on vacation, sick leave etc? All guys in the FD are the same? Yeah right, what consistency? Why would they be dedicated to anything if they couldn’t remember and enhance what they learned as a rookie to do the whole job well?
“There is NO argument that makes sense for replacing Engines/Trucks with fewer Quints and fewer members.”
None huh, would it be better to simply get rid of the people, engines and ladders needed to balance the budget and not offer more capable apparatus like is going on in many cities? Certainly there aren’t any crews who can figure out how to use a quint according to you!
“The only thing that will result is fewer members on scene and those that do arrive will take longer to arrive.”
The only thing huh? If you are hanging out of a window, do you want a ladder or a pumper? Offering a swiss army knife is preferable to a buck knife. So where are all of these departments with quints that are layingoff guys, closing stations and getting rid of companies that out number departments without quints that are laying off guys and closing stations and companies? Want to post some names?
“And since you needed to take more companies to get the same compliment of personell more areas of your city are now left without protection. “
And how many fires are going on at one time in your town? How many times a year are there multiple working fires simultaneously? 3600 people die in fires a year a whopping 6 per month per state, not a real big problem is it really, 60% of those because they don’t have a detector or a working one. Fix that and only 1440 die a year.
”I don't see how anyone but the bean counters would like this!!”
I think our bean counters were happy with our $470,000 purchase. We can certainly do more faster than anything you run.
If 70% of the fire services business is EMS, and very little is firefighting shouldn’t the resources devoted be devoted to the real needs as well?
There is nothing wrong with the apparatus called a quint. There is everything wrong with the ways you said you operate. No fire department on earth is trying to do both jobs truck and engine at the same time with a single crew, so that argument doesn’t fly. There are departments that double staff their quints and do both.
Only the bean counter cares? How about this, two engines and a ladder that is three operators and a crew of 9 assuming staffing of 4 but nationally the 400 largest FD’s staff with just 3.
If all there EO’s stay with their rig you have a crew of 9 to work with. Same task with two quints each with 6 gives a working crew of 10. Putting a quint in every station gives more flexibility than a traditional engine ladder mix. Say you place a car in each station and have two members run ems while four stay in service with a quint. You can still be a ladder or an engine, you aren’t running a 400K rig on a bandaid call. The sedan can meet the Quint on scene or another sedan can to get the staffing back to 6. You can be like Jersey city and do nothing special and watch your staffing drop 50% over 15 years or at least have apparatus that can address a new and better approach than watching rigs and stations close and people loose their jobs. You are far better with fewer stations and adequately staff multi-purpose apparatus and working smoke detectors than a bunch of light staffed rigs with tight spacing in conventional roles.
Every issue you’ve brought up are people and training issues not quint issues.
Feel free to get real specific on what you can’t do with a quint or what you can’t do as a firefighter, and seeing as how all these guys on the board agree lets see if we can have a meaningful debate on real quint issues.
05-23-2003, 01:34 PM #36
- Join Date
- Apr 2003
- Webster NY
West Webster runs a quint.
05-23-2003, 05:16 PM #37
Is it LARRY or is it memorex?
Is there even one urban city with a quint concept that didn't cut staffing and add to response time in many areas, especially for 2nd and 3rd arriving companies? The quint may be a decent piece of equipment but it is a staff cutter plain and simple. I have a friend that's a Chief in St.Louis who stated simply "yes St.Louis cut their staffing numbers after they went to a total quint concept". He accepts the concept but does not agree with it. Quints may have their place but not at the cost of staffing levels, especially in densely populated older urban areas.We have 1 quint in a very small area that is cut off at times by the bridge over the Rouge River, but it only runs with 4 and it should have at least 7. My department seriously considered quints until they realized that response times for over half the city would be effected for the 2nd and 3rd arriving companies. They also wouldn't have staffed them with 7-8 firefighters, they would have only staffed them with 3-4 depending on manpower that day. They wanted to go from 21 trucks and 40 engines to 39 quints and would have kept our 3 platforms. The city was attempting to lower staffing to below 900 FF's from 1350 FF's. In my city, I could never accept this concept, regardless of anyones argument to the contrary. Simply a personal opinion, whether you agree or not.
Last edited by FireLt1951; 05-23-2003 at 05:48 PM.
05-24-2003, 03:12 AM #38
- Join Date
- Apr 2003
“Is there even one urban city with a quint concept that didn't cut staffing”
Does your own Detroit count? You’ve been running Sutphen quints for what 30 years? Your concept was quint towers. Does LA City or County count? Does Houston Texas Count? Fort Worth? Las Vegas, Clark County NV. FDNY? Miami? A better question might be who cut staffing. So yes lots of towns have not cut staffing.
“and add to response time in many areas, especially for 2nd and 3rd arriving companies?”
See answer above. St Louis and Richmond are easy bad examples.
“The quint may be a decent piece of equipment”
Just like any other, you get what you pay for and spec.
“but it is a staff cutter plain and simple.”
Quints don’t cut staffs, that is up to elected government. You can make a better case about airlines being staff cutters.
“Quints may have their place but not at the cost of staffing levels,”
After 30 years of using them in Detroit how many people did your quints cut?
“especially in densely populated older urban areas.”
Name some examples!
“We have 1 quint”
You have a lot more than that!
“in a very small area that is cut off at times by the bridge over the Rouge River, but it only runs with 4 and it should have at least 7.”
And what was there before? Many firefighters would say engines and ladders should have 6 each, so how do 7 on a quint do the job of 12? I guess I’m not following you.
“My department seriously considered quints until they realized that response times for over half the city would be effected for the 2nd and 3rd arriving companies.”
For 30 years you’ve been running quints! What are you talking about? Here lets try it together you replace an engine with a quint, how has the response time increased? Why do you need more staffing? Isn’t the response time automatically better? At least for a first arriving ladder it is! Here, let’s try another, you retire a ladder and replace it with a quint, has the response time changed? No! Is the rig more versatile? Yes!
“They also wouldn't have staffed them with 7-8 firefighters, they would have only staffed them with 3-4 depending on manpower that day.”
Why don’t you say what you are really saying that getting rid of two rigs for one rig cuts staffing but if you are going to do that you would in fact be better off with quints than standard ladders and engines due to improved capability of the entire fleet.
“They wanted to go from 21 trucks and 40 engines to 39 quints and would have kept our 3 platforms.”
And the three platforms are quints! Duh?
“The city was attempting to lower staffing to below 900 FF's from 1350 FF's”
Like every city and all aspects of government nation wide.
“In my city, I could never accept this concept, regardless of anyones argument to the contrary.”
Do you have a say in the matter? Quint or not you’ll be cutting staffing, the real issue is do you want the best tool for the remaining smaller number of firefighters to operate.
05-24-2003, 08:25 AM #39
Well it didn't cut staff here we ran it with 3 or 4 men. We tried to get more staffing to take advantage of the options the apparatus gave us, but it was a no go. We only had the normal ground ladders an engine would have so we couldn't act as a truck.Fire and Police - Americas first line of defense.
05-24-2003, 02:02 PM #40Originally posted by imtxff44
"You’ve been running Sutphen quints for what 30 years?"
We run ONE quint and only one.
"Does LA City or County count? Does Houston Texas Count? Fort Worth? Las Vegas, Clark County NV. FDNY? Miami?"
So all these cities run a total quint concept?
and add to response time in many areas, especially for 2nd and 3rd arriving companies.
"When they close companies, yes it adds to response times".
The only thing we agree on!
"Quints don’t cut staffs, that is up to elected government. You can make a better case about airlines being staff cutters".
True and most local governments are just like you, you would have no problem cutting staffing levels if it's to your advantage.
"After 30 years of using them in Detroit how many people did your quints cut"?
Over 30 years we lost over 500 (we were 1870 FF's until 1975) firefighter positions but not through a quint concept. If the administration had had it's way a few years ago we would have been cut from 1330 FF's down to less than 900 FF's. We fought the concept and ended up getting 60 extra FF positions in the budget. Sure as he@! beats staffing cuts with a total quint concept.
We have 1 quint.
"You have a lot more than that"!
AGAIN, NO WE DO NOT. I've lived in this city for over 50 years and 30 years on this department and you have the gaul to try and tell me what we run and what we don't run. GET REAL!
in a very small area that is cut off at times by the bridge over the Rouge River, but it only runs with 4 and it should have at least 7.
"And what was there before"? "Many firefighters would say engines and ladders should have 6 each, so how do 7 on a quint do the job of 12? I guess I’m not following you".
That appartus has been the only apparatus in that section for over 70 years. They never had a truck in that section of town. The apparatus once had staffing of 6-7 until 1977 when they went to a 4 person crew.
"For 30 years you’ve been running quints! What are you talking about? Here lets try it together you replace an engine with a quint, how has the response time increased? Why do you need more staffing? Isn’t the response time automatically better? At least for a first arriving ladder it is! Here, let’s try another, you retire a ladder and replace it with a quint, has the response time changed? No! Is the rig more versatile? Yes"!
AGAIN, we have only run ONE quint, get that trough your head.
When you shut down 22 companies and go from 21 Ladder Trucks and 40 Engines to 39 quints, YES it does effect response time, especially for 2nd and 3rd arriving companies. Explain to me how it wouldn't.
They also wouldn't have staffed them with 7-8 firefighters, they would have only staffed them with 3-4 depending on manpower that day.
"Why don’t you say what you are really saying that getting rid of two rigs for one rig cuts staffing but if you are going to do that you would in fact be better off with quints than standard ladders and engines due to improved capability of the entire fleet".
BULL@H!T. We would be better of with 1390 firefighers than 900 or less. We are also better off with 21 ladder trucks, 3 platforms and 40 engines along with our 6 squads.
"And the three platforms are quints"! Duh?
No they are not quints or maybe in your mind they are! A platform is not a true quint now is it? They have no Aerial ladder, just the bucket with minimum compliment of ground ladders and they are never used as engines. The 3 new Platforms we have are used almost totally for high hazard areas, 2nd alarms and above anymore. In a lot of areas, these new Platforms are too big for the streets and simply don't fit. Your definition of a quint must be different from mine, boy thats surprising.
The city was attempting to lower staffing to below 900 FF's from 1350 FF's.
"Like every city and all aspects of government nation wide".
The city didn't win, we fought hard and we won an extra 60 positions in the budget.
In my city, I could never accept this concept, regardless of anyones argument to the contrary.
"Do you have a say in the matter? Quint or not you’ll be cutting staffing, the real issue is do you want the best tool for the remaining smaller number of firefighters to operate".
Don't try and tell me what is or has gone on in this city over the last 30-40 years. I've lived here all my life and I'd say I know a
he!& of a lot more about it than you ever will!
Your opinion on quints is exactly that, you're opinion. It does not mean others follow or even agree with that opinion. A total quint concept (of which this discussion is all about) especially in larger cities is a staff cutting idea and only that!
P.S. Sorry about the quote screwup here people.
Last edited by FireLt1951; 05-24-2003 at 03:02 PM.
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