Closed Thread
Page 2 of 3 First 123 Last
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: quint concept

  1. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    86

    Default

    I hate to state the obvious here, but......

    If the "QUINT CONCEPT" is so darn appealing, so darn terriffic, and so darn affordable, why aren't more departments doing it?

    Face it. Accept it. Learn to love it.

    TQC will not work. The whole concept has been presented as a way to reduce staffing. Firefighters will tolerate alot-they will not tolerate yet another way to reduce staffing. I don't care how shiny, how many gadgets, how many feet of hose, how many thousands of gallons of h2o it can carry.

    Nevernind that Quints themselves are a so-so piece of apparatus. Most juridstictions put the Quint into a "Truck" slot and use them as such. Besides 'Quint" isn't as tough sounding as "Engine" or "Truck".

    Quints are a hopeless fad....and like 8 Tracks and Cassettes will eventually go into oblivion.

    Disclaimer: Apologies to any of the I.A.C.O.J. who still have 8Tracks in their POV's.
    Last edited by RSchmidt; 08-19-2002 at 10:35 AM.
    Rob

    "Well done is better than well said" - B. Franklin

  2. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    DeSoto, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1

    Default quints

    What I have seen with the total quint concept has been very possitive.I am a volunteer and live 30 miles south of St.Louis and have ridden with them a couple of times. The city went total quint in 1988, and have just purchased their second round of quints. They operate 30 75ft. engine co. manned with 4 firefighter, 4 hook@ladder co. (2) 125ft. aerials, and (2) 105ft. aerial platforms manned with 4 firefighters, and 2 heavy rescues manned with 6 firefighters. I am not for sure on this but I beleive on a first alarm assingment you get 5 engines, (75ft) 1 H@L, 1HR. The first in engine is the fire supprssion,2nd is truck, 3rd secondary water supply, 4th assist the first engine, 5th is the rapid intervention team, H@L does truck work as well. Rescue assists where they are needed. This (i think) is how it works, and is like this no matter where you go in the city. So on the way out the door you know (on due status) what your job will be when you arrive at the scene. One other note, the attack lines come off the back of the apparatus, so the first in engine pulls past the building so the second engine or truck has the front of the building. They also can have 6 aerials in operation with just 1 alarm with 30 firefighters, and 3 chiefs on scene, not just flowing water, but having multiple areials on the building for secondary means of egress on the roof and upper floors in the buildings. The question about you can't run the ladder and the pump at the same time. You can if you spec the apparatus with aerial controls and the pump panel which is what St.Louis speced on the new ones. This way the engineer can get water in the lines, then set the areial up to the second floor windows (secondary egress) roof, or to protect exposures on either side to the fire building, with out waiting for a truck co. to arrive at the scene and set up. But just like anything else in the fire service if you don't train for it then it will not work. The St.Louis Fire Dept. does an excellant job with cross training all their people to do both engine and truck work. If there is a way to get something done firefighters no matter where, will always find away to get it done! It starts with training and more training.

  3. #28
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    192

    Default

    brunswick hills township fire department runs a quint with a 105ft arial(sp?)

    cost a good $680000
    FireSarge
    Joseph Sullivan
    Ohio

    "Any man willing to die in my place is my brother. Any man willing to turn and run is my enemy. Which will you be?"

  4. #29
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Smile Not for everyone.....

    P.G. County Md. has about 90 engines, 22 Trucks/Towers, 12 Heavy Rescues, AND 1 QUINT. The quint has a minimum of 4 all the time, and runs from a combination station where volunteers run the engines. That station had a Tower Ladder that was destroyed in an accident and they expect to replace it, but for now the quint is running from there. I expect to see the quint moved to a different station once the new Tower Ladder goes in service at the quint's present location. Speaking with several people who have worked on the quint, I am under the impression that it is not liked by most who use it. Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  5. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    I formerly worked for a department that had a bastardized quint concept. Many in that area do. I now work for a Dept that uses Engine/Trucks exclusively.

    I spent a majority of my time in my former Dept on a Quint.
    I'll address those who don't understand why a Quint is really only half a truck or half and engine.

    I've always been fond of the phrase: "A Jack of all trades and a Master of none."

    Yes erniefire the rig has hose just like an Engine but is are the hose beds easily accessible? Are there options on hose loads and amount? Can the rig perform a backstretch just as well as a forward lay? What if you had to perform a reverse lay??? doesn't that take your ladder away from the building where it was to perform as a Ladder. Does the driver have all the nessesary appliances and adapters easily accessible or have their numbers been reduced and buried in the back to make room for the extrication gear or fans?

    Yes erniefire the rig has portable ladders just like a Truck but are there the same amount of options? Did the specs call for a 3 section ladder vs. a two section? (for those who have never tried the difference is very noticable in raising and extending a 3-section vs. 2-section.) And just like the hose are they easily accesible or do you need to push hose and other tools on the back of the rig out of the way. Are they mounted so high to make removal difficult for all but the tallest of FFs?

    These are all important points but the biggest problem with the Quint concept has nothing to do with the rig itself. I'll address your proposal that someone off an Engine grab the Truck tools from the quint or operate the ladder and perform the nessesary truck skills. My former dept operated like that.

    You showed up and got your assignment right before you were expected to perform it. Problems...It created delays, you couldn't size up the building with your specific duties in mind until the last minute. The size up for VES the rear of a building is much different than forcible entry of the front, or stretching a handline or search of the 1st floor.

    After you recived your assignment the officer told the members what tools to take or everyone took whatever they wanted. Either way it was a half-*** way of attacking a fire. It was like a pick-up football game you showed up and the officer handed out assignments like a quarterback giving out passing routes for recievers. Not very professional!

    And the biggest issue of all is operational proficiency. I tried for years to maintain competencies in all skills Engine and Truck alike. What I found it is very difficult to do this. Most depts that have special operations have those highly motivated and skilled members on a Rescue, Squad or whatever you call it. Most guys are good at Engine operations and the Truck skills fall by the wayside.

    And as for your suggestion that the Engine guys grab the Truck tools off the Quint and go to work...how often do the Eng guys train in the use of the tools? How often do they practice Searching? Laddering? Use of the Aerial? Forcible Entry?? etc.? They don't check the tools out on a daily basis, they don't regualarly operate as a Truck at a fire and this WILL negatively affect operations and possibly lead to increased injuries and maybe even deaths.

    Truck operations are much too important to delegate them to some random Engine company that may or may not be proficent in operating as one.

    Fires occur far less than in years past. It should be important to realize that a consistant group of members deticated to Truck skills is much more preferable than to some supposed flexibility gained by use of Quints. There is NO argument that makes sense for replacing Engines/Trucks with fewer Quints and fewer members. The only thing that will result is fewer members on scene and those that do arrive will take longer to arrive. And since you needed to take more companies to get the same compliment of personell more areas of your city are now left without protection.

    I don't see how anyone but the bean counters would like this!!

    FTM-PTB
    Kabutler515 likes this.

  6. #31
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    WAHOO!!! YIPPEE!!!



    FFFRED - YOU DA MAN!

    (and in case anyone is wondering, FFFRED is NOT my alterego)

    Stay Safe

  7. #32
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    Only 2 words to describe the concept.


    "QUINTS S*CK"

  8. #33
    Member
    TheOldSchool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    71

    Default

    Baltimore had two Simon/LTI's we bought from a contract for St Louis. I personally like them because we used them as Engines with a lot of versatility. They had their drawback but I think the advantages far outweighed them.

  9. #34
    MembersZone Subscriber
    resqcapt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Posts
    40

    Thumbs up

    FFRED, couldn't have said better!
    IAFF Local 2665
    "Leather Forever"
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB

  10. #35
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    23

    Default

    “I formerly worked for a department that had a bastardized quint concept. Many in that area do.”

    So based upon on FD’s or several bastardized concepts no one could figure out how to use a Quint? So would a non bastardized quint concept work? Does anything bastardized work? It sounds to me like you have a firefighter and officer problem not a quint problem.

    “I now work for a Dept that uses Engine/Trucks exclusively.”

    So everything is all better now right? You don’t have to worry about ladders, using tools, or that big scary ladder right?? When you went through basic training was it just truck or engine, not overall firemanship? Odds are you were trained in everything, but got to the station and have been indoctrinated that you are only capable of doing one task or the other. So is it your or their departments members who aren’t trainable or is it the apparatus? So when you operate the engines and trucks in a bastardized way they don’t work well either right?

    ”I'll address those who don't understand why a Quint is really only half a truck or half and engine.”

    Half huh? Yours didn’t have a 1250 to 2250 pump like an engine? Didn’t it have an entire ladder just as wide and just as wide as a ladder truck? If not, why not? If not who spec’d the truck? You do write specs to do the job properly?

    ”the rig has hose just like an Engine but is are the hose beds easily accessible?”

    Gee I’m looking at one right now that has 2600 feet of 5 inch and 3000 feet of attack lines in the form of 13 preconnects, does you engine pack that? They are all loaded from the ground, no climbing the rig on the attack lines and the supply bed is loaded without raising the ladder. Clean shot design no turntable in the way. Didn’t your bastardized FD take the time to spec what you wanted? You didn’t ask for a dear e-one or pierce did you and let them spec the rig???? Did you? Sure sounds like it.

    “Are there options on hose loads and amount?”

    Um. It will lay dual 1300 foot five inch lines, or one 2600 foot line, or perform a drive by lay and have four 5 inch supply lines. It has dual 5 inch ldh monitors for reverse lays. Has dual carlin valves so no one has to even stay at the hydrant, just like every other department. I’m sure your engine can’t do any of that right? I’m sure your bastardized management laid things out right correct?

    “Can the rig perform a backstretch just as well as a forward lay?”

    Sure without anyone getting out of the cab or without leaving a hydrant man for a wet lay. Does you engine do that? One or two ldh lines just like your rigs right? We carry the same amount of hose as you right?

    “What if you had to perform a reverse lay???”

    Why would you? I have hydrants every 300 to 5200 feet just like everyone else, what are the advantages of a reverse lay. Make your hydraulic case, what is it I need to do with a reverse lay? How often would I be doing this? Make your case. Dual 5 inch lines in a forward lay off a 35 psi hydrant 300 feet is the same as you making a reverse lay and pumping a single 5 inch line at 185 psi the limit of your supply hose. (you do use 5 inch right?) I get 3233 gpm to my 2250 gpm hydrant rated pump. So tell me who is more likely to have a hose failure the 35 psi line or the 185? Sure we can do it but why?

    “doesn't that take your ladder away from the building where it was to perform as a Ladder.”

    Only if you are stupid enough to park it at the hydrant. Only if your FD only has one ladder. Now let’s get real, how many times have you raised the ladder at a structure fire this month? FDNY raises their ladder only 361 times out of 10,000 runs. So go ahead and tell me how busy your FD is. And how often would you have a reason to do a reverse lay. Don’t your bastardized officers realize that they are running a ladder and might want to use it? It takes people thinking to use any rig properly. Dual supply lines and there isn’t a need for a reverse lay, EVER!

    “Does the driver have all the nessesary appliances and adapters easily accessible or have their numbers been reduced and buried in the back to make room for the extrication gear or fans?”

    Of course he does, we spec’d our own apparatus to do what we want to do. Can we hook five supply lines into the rig? Yes. Do we have all the fittings to use the steamer or 2 ˝” connection, Yes . Do you? 99% of our fittings are on the discharge or suction or supply line you are going to use or directly below them. The supply bed goes 5 inch storz all the way down to 2 ˝ inch and even has a double male in a universal reverse lay hook ups and a 2 ˝ inch gate valve. That is both lines. So we can forward or reverse lay with the same end of the hose to anything in our state. All four LDH discharges flow at least 1000 gpm and two flow 2250 gpm and reduce down to 1 inch nst and every step along the way. Adapters and fitting have never been an issue even working with fire departments 240 and 300 miles from home. You see our dual rear 6 inch suctions go through all the thread sizes, so when the department with 5 inch hose with 4 ˝” threads wanted to lay us a line it coupled, when the department with 4 inch threads wanted us to pump a line we could do it. When the 4 inch with 3 ˝” couplings arrived we supplied it.

    ”Yes the rig has portable ladders just like a Truck but are there the same amount of options?”

    Well the one I’m looking at has two 35 foot 2 flys, two 24 foot 2 flys, two 10 foot folding, two 16 foot roof and racks to hold a pair of 50 foot extensions if it is ever needed. You know the fire department can spec what they want or buy off the shelf, we spec’d what we wanted and didn’t take the minimum standard demo. Isn’t that your whole issue you bought a dear pierce or dear E-one, etc and paid the price, right? You get what you ask for in your bastardized operation.

    “Did the specs call for a 3 section ladder vs. a two section?”

    Heck no, two who wants a three? You didn’t buy threes did you?

    “(for those who have never tried the difference is very noticable in raising and extending a 3-section vs. 2-section.)”

    Our guys are smarter than that, 90 pounds difference.

    “And just like the hose are they easily accessible”

    On dual ladder racks that lower to 36 inches in height or pull off the rear from the same rack, access has never been an issue. After all you did take time to spec your rig to match your firefighters, didn’t you?

    “or do you need to push hose and other tools on the back of the rig out of the way.”

    Nah, that would be stupid, no one would spec a truck like that, we can deploy our jaws or cutter in 30 seconds and not hook up a thing, deploy two tripod lights and/or 5 cord reel flood lights in 10 seconds, all 18,000 watts of flood lights can be switched on from the cab with the vehicle in motion, draft in 15 seconds with one guy, put 9 guys in scba on arrival with in cab mounts and three more out of compartments, Air chisel in 15 seconds without hooking up a thing or any other air tool, sawzall in 15 seconds, place two 2000 gpm deck guns in service on the way in, in motion or CAFS streams, we have five saws ready to go, air bags deployable in 15 seconds all hooked up nothing to screw with, a 5000 gallon drop tank too set up for one man deploy, we can lift 42 feet vertically up to 400 feet from the rig with soft hose in the form of a preconnect line deployable in less than 2 minutes with just two firefighters, we can operate a deck gun off tank water through a 2 inch smooth bore tip with 250 feet of reach for 8 minutes, we can shuttle water with our quints through the 10 inch side dumps, we pack 12 salvage covers, a ton of cribbing, pack 45 feet of hard suction, have dual rear ldh suctions, two smoke ejectors, complete electronic accountability system, 12 pike poles, in cab thermal imagers, in cab computer preplans and audible directions to the fire call, etc. Can you do any of that with your ladder or engine? Nah, I doubt it. Like you said, you bastardized your operations so I’m sure your spec’s were just as bad.

    “ Are they mounted so high to make removal difficult for all but the tallest of FFs? “

    36 inches is lower than our shortest firefighters. Why would anyone mount them high?

    ”These are all important points but the biggest problem with the Quint concept has nothing to do with the rig itself.”

    It doesn’t? Then why did you spend so much time on it? Does your engine carry 2000 gallons of water like our quint? Do you run CAFS? Have 220 gallons of foam in four tanks? Do you have two foam systems? Can you place four master streams in service in 3 minutes with your 4 man crew?

    ”You showed up and got your assignment right before you were expected to perform it.”

    Gee, and you can’t think on your feet? You can’t work as a team? So your department was a joke and you blame the apparatus? I don’t get it. FDNY drives into buildings according to this months fire house going to non-sense calls so we should all not run engines right because some crews do stupid stuff, lie, never wear seat belts, etc?

    “Problems...It created delays, you couldn't size up the building with your specific duties in mind until the last minute.”

    You can’t adapt? Sounds like a personal problem not a quint problem. We show up and have been doing ladder and engine functions simultaneously for 8 years. It ain’t a big deal, I guess we have much better management and apparatus than you. Does your traditional ladder and engine company fall apart when asked to do something at the last minute also?

    “The size up for VES the rear of a building is much different than forcible entry of the front, or stretching a handline or search of the 1st floor.”

    Gosh that all sounds good and you are doing all of this how often? We are lucky to get maybe 32 guys on a structure fire first alarm response. NFPA sets the minimum standards for response and staffing at what 15, right? So it sounds you live in a world were only one truck responds and has to work alone, we don’t if we did we can do all of those things with one rig instantly on arrival. So the front guy can’t figure out how to do the back guys job? Everything sounds like a lack of training issue and quints or ladders shouldn’t make any difference if you have untrained people

    ”After you received your assignment the officer told the members what tools to take or everyone took whatever they wanted.”

    So you work for a free lance fire department, wonderful and what does that have to do with quints? If you operate your engines and trucks that way you’ll have the same lousy results! So doing whatever you want sounds fun!

    “Either way it was a half-*** way of attacking a fire. It was like a pick-up football game you showed up and the officer handed out assignments like a quarterback giving out passing routes for recievers. Not very professional!”

    Ok so you’ve made it clear you work for a half assed fire department that is not very professional, so you probably shouldn’t be giving quint advice on a forums board, because you have made it quite clear you haven’t a clue how to run or operate on a fire ground or spec a truck.

    ”And the biggest issue of all is operational proficiency. I tried for years to maintain competencies in all skills Engine and Truck alike. What I found it is very difficult to do this.”

    Not all FD’s have that problem, certainly not an issue here. So you can’t figure out how to do tow jobs, really one job, that of a firefighter. You’ve made that clear over and over again.

    “Most depts that have special operations have those highly motivated and skilled members on a Rescue, Squad or whatever you call it. Most guys are good at Engine operations and the Truck skills fall by the wayside.”

    Most huh? Oh bull, only if you allow it. There are no requirements or skills to maintain to keep membership or employment? You get what you put into the job, no expectations you get the end result, certainly not a quint issue.

    ”And as for your suggestion that the Engine guys grab the Truck tools off the Quint and go to work...how often do the Eng guys train in the use of the tools?”

    The issue is this, if that is how you operate why aren’t you training for it? Every rig in my department is outfitted exactly alike, I guess we’ve been thinking about how to do the job professionally too long. The free lance approach you speak of didn’t work well in Worchester, Lake Worth, Houston, or any of the high profile LODD departments, we choose not to use it hear, but if you are happy with it and want blame your quints, that is cool. So you don’t train either, greaaaaaat!

    “How often do they practice Searching?”

    No more than once a week, all rigs are imager equipped and all buildings are pre-planned. What do you think is the right amount tice a career to match the number of times in a career you actually find a victim?

    “Laddering?”

    We only own four types, they are all the same. Rarely need them actually. Same goes for the big stick. We know where to park and where and when to throw a ladder. Don’t you? Come on, you aren’t really telling us you don’t know how to throw a ladder are you?

    “Use of the Aerial?”

    I’m sure our ladder goes up on 80% of our calls because we make it a habit even on auto accidents to use it as a light tower, because it has 6500 watts of flood light on the end, we commonly drop the riggers and place the ladder even when no fire is visible. When you have the street on the customers request you might as well take the opportunity to train.

    “ Forcible Entry??”

    We we unconventional tools that will open everything so we have no entry issues.

    “They don't check the tools out on a daily basis,”

    Actually we do, with every rig being the same what is the big deal? Why don’t you?

    “they don't regualarly operate as a Truck at a fire”

    So how many fires are you, per shift, per station running a year. You know total number of calls divided by X number of stations, divided by days you are actually on duty equals what? How many of those did the ladder go up and required a heavy smoke search? Now tell us that you have so much fire activity that you are relying on it alone for sharp ladder skills or engine skills. We need a good laugh. FDNY’s numbers are: 6.5 fires not structure fires per station per month. They are 4 times busier than the next major metro FD. Most fires are put out with water not ladders, right?

    “ and this WILL negatively affect operations and possibly lead to increased injuries and maybe even deaths. “

    Nah, train the way you play, get off you *** and do your job, stay sharp, equip for the job at hand and practice. Care to tell us where all these deaths are occuring?

    ”Truck operations are much too important to delegate them to some random Engine company that may or may not be proficent in operating as one. “

    If the firefighters are not proficient, maybe they shouldn’t be firefighters. If that were true fires wouldn’t go out in all the departments that do truck operations with engines because they don’t own ladders. What department on earth has more ladders or the same number as engines? NONE So do the engines always wait for the ladder to vent, and force entry? How many fires really require entry? How many really require vertical ventilation? Thousands of fires are fought daily without either. Horizontal ventilation by far during attack out numbers vertical. What percentage f your fires are you searching? What percentage ever find a victim? Compare that with the number of times your search creates the only possible life hazard. Benefit and risk…seems out of wack.

    ”It should be important to realize that a consistant group of members deticated to Truck skills is much more preferable than to some supposed flexibility gained by use of Quints.”

    Oh give it a rest, dedicated? It is their job to be competent in all basic firefighter skills. A consistent group huh? You mean, no one is ever filling in for a guy on vacation, sick leave etc? All guys in the FD are the same? Yeah right, what consistency? Why would they be dedicated to anything if they couldn’t remember and enhance what they learned as a rookie to do the whole job well?

    “There is NO argument that makes sense for replacing Engines/Trucks with fewer Quints and fewer members.”

    None huh, would it be better to simply get rid of the people, engines and ladders needed to balance the budget and not offer more capable apparatus like is going on in many cities? Certainly there aren’t any crews who can figure out how to use a quint according to you!

    “The only thing that will result is fewer members on scene and those that do arrive will take longer to arrive.”

    The only thing huh? If you are hanging out of a window, do you want a ladder or a pumper? Offering a swiss army knife is preferable to a buck knife. So where are all of these departments with quints that are layingoff guys, closing stations and getting rid of companies that out number departments without quints that are laying off guys and closing stations and companies? Want to post some names?

    “And since you needed to take more companies to get the same compliment of personell more areas of your city are now left without protection. “

    And how many fires are going on at one time in your town? How many times a year are there multiple working fires simultaneously? 3600 people die in fires a year a whopping 6 per month per state, not a real big problem is it really, 60% of those because they don’t have a detector or a working one. Fix that and only 1440 die a year.

    ”I don't see how anyone but the bean counters would like this!!”

    I think our bean counters were happy with our $470,000 purchase. We can certainly do more faster than anything you run.

    If 70% of the fire services business is EMS, and very little is firefighting shouldn’t the resources devoted be devoted to the real needs as well?

    There is nothing wrong with the apparatus called a quint. There is everything wrong with the ways you said you operate. No fire department on earth is trying to do both jobs truck and engine at the same time with a single crew, so that argument doesn’t fly. There are departments that double staff their quints and do both.

    Only the bean counter cares? How about this, two engines and a ladder that is three operators and a crew of 9 assuming staffing of 4 but nationally the 400 largest FD’s staff with just 3.

    If all there EO’s stay with their rig you have a crew of 9 to work with. Same task with two quints each with 6 gives a working crew of 10. Putting a quint in every station gives more flexibility than a traditional engine ladder mix. Say you place a car in each station and have two members run ems while four stay in service with a quint. You can still be a ladder or an engine, you aren’t running a 400K rig on a bandaid call. The sedan can meet the Quint on scene or another sedan can to get the staffing back to 6. You can be like Jersey city and do nothing special and watch your staffing drop 50% over 15 years or at least have apparatus that can address a new and better approach than watching rigs and stations close and people loose their jobs. You are far better with fewer stations and adequately staff multi-purpose apparatus and working smoke detectors than a bunch of light staffed rigs with tight spacing in conventional roles.

    Every issue you’ve brought up are people and training issues not quint issues.

    Feel free to get real specific on what you can’t do with a quint or what you can’t do as a firefighter, and seeing as how all these guys on the board agree lets see if we can have a meaningful debate on real quint issues.

  11. #36
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Webster NY
    Posts
    306

    Default

    West Webster runs a quint.

  12. #37
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    Is it LARRY or is it memorex?

    Is there even one urban city with a quint concept that didn't cut staffing and add to response time in many areas, especially for 2nd and 3rd arriving companies? The quint may be a decent piece of equipment but it is a staff cutter plain and simple. I have a friend that's a Chief in St.Louis who stated simply "yes St.Louis cut their staffing numbers after they went to a total quint concept". He accepts the concept but does not agree with it. Quints may have their place but not at the cost of staffing levels, especially in densely populated older urban areas.We have 1 quint in a very small area that is cut off at times by the bridge over the Rouge River, but it only runs with 4 and it should have at least 7. My department seriously considered quints until they realized that response times for over half the city would be effected for the 2nd and 3rd arriving companies. They also wouldn't have staffed them with 7-8 firefighters, they would have only staffed them with 3-4 depending on manpower that day. They wanted to go from 21 trucks and 40 engines to 39 quints and would have kept our 3 platforms. The city was attempting to lower staffing to below 900 FF's from 1350 FF's. In my city, I could never accept this concept, regardless of anyones argument to the contrary. Simply a personal opinion, whether you agree or not.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 05-23-2003 at 05:48 PM.

  13. #38
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    23

    Default

    “Is there even one urban city with a quint concept that didn't cut staffing”

    Does your own Detroit count? You’ve been running Sutphen quints for what 30 years? Your concept was quint towers. Does LA City or County count? Does Houston Texas Count? Fort Worth? Las Vegas, Clark County NV. FDNY? Miami? A better question might be who cut staffing. So yes lots of towns have not cut staffing.

    “and add to response time in many areas, especially for 2nd and 3rd arriving companies?”

    See answer above. St Louis and Richmond are easy bad examples.

    “The quint may be a decent piece of equipment”

    Just like any other, you get what you pay for and spec.

    “but it is a staff cutter plain and simple.”

    Quints don’t cut staffs, that is up to elected government. You can make a better case about airlines being staff cutters.

    “Quints may have their place but not at the cost of staffing levels,”

    After 30 years of using them in Detroit how many people did your quints cut?

    “especially in densely populated older urban areas.”

    Name some examples!

    “We have 1 quint”

    You have a lot more than that!

    “in a very small area that is cut off at times by the bridge over the Rouge River, but it only runs with 4 and it should have at least 7.”

    And what was there before? Many firefighters would say engines and ladders should have 6 each, so how do 7 on a quint do the job of 12? I guess I’m not following you.

    “My department seriously considered quints until they realized that response times for over half the city would be effected for the 2nd and 3rd arriving companies.”

    For 30 years you’ve been running quints! What are you talking about? Here lets try it together you replace an engine with a quint, how has the response time increased? Why do you need more staffing? Isn’t the response time automatically better? At least for a first arriving ladder it is! Here, let’s try another, you retire a ladder and replace it with a quint, has the response time changed? No! Is the rig more versatile? Yes!

    “They also wouldn't have staffed them with 7-8 firefighters, they would have only staffed them with 3-4 depending on manpower that day.”

    Why don’t you say what you are really saying that getting rid of two rigs for one rig cuts staffing but if you are going to do that you would in fact be better off with quints than standard ladders and engines due to improved capability of the entire fleet.

    “They wanted to go from 21 trucks and 40 engines to 39 quints and would have kept our 3 platforms.”

    And the three platforms are quints! Duh?

    “The city was attempting to lower staffing to below 900 FF's from 1350 FF's”

    Like every city and all aspects of government nation wide.

    “In my city, I could never accept this concept, regardless of anyones argument to the contrary.”

    Do you have a say in the matter? Quint or not you’ll be cutting staffing, the real issue is do you want the best tool for the remaining smaller number of firefighters to operate.

  14. #39
    Member
    TheOldSchool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    71

    Default

    Well it didn't cut staff here we ran it with 3 or 4 men. We tried to get more staffing to take advantage of the options the apparatus gave us, but it was a no go. We only had the normal ground ladders an engine would have so we couldn't act as a truck.
    Fire and Police - Americas first line of defense.

  15. #40
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    Originally posted by imtxff44


    "You’ve been running Sutphen quints for what 30 years?"

    We run ONE quint and only one.

    "Does LA City or County count? Does Houston Texas Count? Fort Worth? Las Vegas, Clark County NV. FDNY? Miami?"

    So all these cities run a total quint concept?

    and add to response time in many areas, especially for 2nd and 3rd arriving companies.

    "When they close companies, yes it adds to response times".

    The only thing we agree on!


    "Quints don’t cut staffs, that is up to elected government. You can make a better case about airlines being staff cutters".

    True and most local governments are just like you, you would have no problem cutting staffing levels if it's to your advantage.


    "After 30 years of using them in Detroit how many people did your quints cut"?

    Over 30 years we lost over 500 (we were 1870 FF's until 1975) firefighter positions but not through a quint concept. If the administration had had it's way a few years ago we would have been cut from 1330 FF's down to less than 900 FF's. We fought the concept and ended up getting 60 extra FF positions in the budget. Sure as he@! beats staffing cuts with a total quint concept.


    We have 1 quint.
    "You have a lot more than that"!

    AGAIN, NO WE DO NOT. I've lived in this city for over 50 years and 30 years on this department and you have the gaul to try and tell me what we run and what we don't run. GET REAL!

    in a very small area that is cut off at times by the bridge over the Rouge River, but it only runs with 4 and it should have at least 7.
    "And what was there before"? "Many firefighters would say engines and ladders should have 6 each, so how do 7 on a quint do the job of 12? I guess I’m not following you".

    That appartus has been the only apparatus in that section for over 70 years. They never had a truck in that section of town. The apparatus once had staffing of 6-7 until 1977 when they went to a 4 person crew.


    "For 30 years you’ve been running quints! What are you talking about? Here lets try it together you replace an engine with a quint, how has the response time increased? Why do you need more staffing? Isn’t the response time automatically better? At least for a first arriving ladder it is! Here, let’s try another, you retire a ladder and replace it with a quint, has the response time changed? No! Is the rig more versatile? Yes"!

    AGAIN, we have only run ONE quint, get that trough your head.
    When you shut down 22 companies and go from 21 Ladder Trucks and 40 Engines to 39 quints, YES it does effect response time, especially for 2nd and 3rd arriving companies. Explain to me how it wouldn't.

    They also wouldn't have staffed them with 7-8 firefighters, they would have only staffed them with 3-4 depending on manpower that day.
    "Why don’t you say what you are really saying that getting rid of two rigs for one rig cuts staffing but if you are going to do that you would in fact be better off with quints than standard ladders and engines due to improved capability of the entire fleet".

    BULL@H!T. We would be better of with 1390 firefighers than 900 or less. We are also better off with 21 ladder trucks, 3 platforms and 40 engines along with our 6 squads.


    "And the three platforms are quints"! Duh?

    No they are not quints or maybe in your mind they are! A platform is not a true quint now is it? They have no Aerial ladder, just the bucket with minimum compliment of ground ladders and they are never used as engines. The 3 new Platforms we have are used almost totally for high hazard areas, 2nd alarms and above anymore. In a lot of areas, these new Platforms are too big for the streets and simply don't fit. Your definition of a quint must be different from mine, boy thats surprising.

    The city was attempting to lower staffing to below 900 FF's from 1350 FF's.
    "Like every city and all aspects of government nation wide".

    The city didn't win, we fought hard and we won an extra 60 positions in the budget.

    In my city, I could never accept this concept, regardless of anyones argument to the contrary.
    "Do you have a say in the matter? Quint or not you’ll be cutting staffing, the real issue is do you want the best tool for the remaining smaller number of firefighters to operate".
    We apparently did. NO, again, we didn't lose the staffing, we gained because we fought the quint concept wholeheartly for years and won. The new Mayor ageed that Police and Fire were not to be cut and I salute him for that. This department has already paid out millions in lawsuits over response times and poor apparatus, with at least 10 lawsuits still in the system (they all seem to hire old Jeffery Fieger and he rarely if ever loses aginst our law dept.). It's actually becoming cheaper to keep the staffing than pay the lawsuits. 90% of our fleet is now less than 5 years old and by next summer 100% will be 5 years old or less.


    Don't try and tell me what is or has gone on in this city over the last 30-40 years. I've lived here all my life and I'd say I know a
    he!& of a lot more about it than you ever will!

    Your opinion on quints is exactly that, you're opinion. It does not mean others follow or even agree with that opinion. A total quint concept (of which this discussion is all about) especially in larger cities is a staff cutting idea and only that!

    P.S. Sorry about the quote screwup here people.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 05-24-2003 at 03:02 PM.

  16. #41
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    The Lt. from the Motor City makes an excellent point Larry. What we comment on comes from our first hand experiences and travels.

    All of yours Larry seems to originate from some mystical book of statisics that are either made up or mischaraterized. You have ZERO credibility here Larry because you bad mouth depts and procedures you have no clue about.
    Here are some quotes I would like you to clarify:

    FDNY raises their ladder only 361 times out of 10,000 runs. So go ahead and tell me how busy your FD is.

    How about this, two engines and a ladder that is three operators and a crew of 9 assuming staffing of 4 but nationally the 400 largest FD’s staff with just 3.

    Does your own Detroit count? You’ve been running Sutphen quints for what 30 years? Your concept was quint towers. Does LA City or County count? Does Houston Texas Count? Fort Worth? Las Vegas, Clark County NV. FDNY? Miami? A better question might be who cut staffing. So yes lots of towns have not cut staffing.
    It is stuff like the preceeding that makes your creedibility worthless around here.

    -Where did you get your FDNY numbers for raising a ladder on runs? (Of course if you count every EMS run and gas Leak you'll get those numbers.) But then again there is no need to raise Ladders on a fire in the 16th story of a project either...but you still need a Ladder Co. though! hmmm.

    -There are many FD's within the largest 400 you quote that staff 4 5 or 6 on a rig. (Boston,KC,FDNY,Chiago,Cincinnati, etc.)

    -I don't know about the rest of the FD's but please tell me where, today May 24th I can find a Quint Co. in operation in the FDNY?

    Working in some Class 1 volly company in Rural Desert Nevada, Texas or wherever you are or being the dirt bag advisor to a City admin that wants to create a dummy internal report to deflect critism, doesn't qualify you to bad mouth urban FFs who have seen what quints and the policies that follow them have done to Fire Departments and the Citizens they protect.

    I have nothing against any FF no matter where he is from, bringing any insight or thougts on any subject to the table for debate. I enjoy learning from others experiences and the exchange of ideas. However you don't see me or the Lt. blasting you for how a "1000-alarm grass fire should be fought!" Do you?

    Are there good applications for Quints? Yes, There are places and situations where they are appropriate. However the LT, mine and it seems most other urban FFs have seen the realities of what Quints are used for and how they are deployed. The only reason that the quints have been effective at all is the men who operate them and not the Chiefs who sold out to Bean counters and purchased quints.

    Instead of being used to increase the tools available to Engines more offten than not they are to eliminate or avoid the creation of Truck Compaines. Period.

    I read your mag back before you got fired and I saw all that nonsense that would break and never be fixed on your rigs. Most Fire Admins are not as benevolent as yours is, apparently, so instead of living in your dream land where every FD gets everything it wants, we'll deal with the real world situation and how it affects firefighters who work to make what little we get work for us every day.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 05-24-2003 at 04:01 PM.

  17. #42
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    23

    Default

    Here is the original post: “What are the different cities around the US and Canada that use the quint concept.“

    So St Louis and Richmond are pretty much it if you add the word, TOTAL quint concept, but the original posted didn’t say TOTAL now did he? But then Richmond isn’t total quint either. So there must be some other quint concepts also, right? Like Syracuse and Detroit running quint towers for close to 30 years each, right? Or Miami, or LA, or LA County, or FT Worth, or Charleston, or, or or!

    There are by far more quint ladders running in the quint concept than you two birds care to speak about. And they work just fine, even FDNY ran quints successfully and did not cut staffing because of their use, and by far 99% of the FD’s using quints don’t cut staffing. Look at Corpus Christi Texas this week placed 75 footers in service in place of engines to offer better service, nothing more nothing less no jobs lost.

    “What are the different cities around the US and Canada that use the quint concept.“

    So the sutphen towers don’t have ladders, tower, pump, water and hose??? WRONG! See the sutphen web page which says: “The Detroit, Michigan, Fire Department recently took delivery of a Sutphen Model 95 Aerial Platform. The new apparatus is powered by a Detroit Diesel Series 60 470 HP engine, and features a Sutphen 62" 6-person cab with half-raised roof. The Stainless Steel body is equipped with a Hale 1500 GPM pump, LED emergency lighting and Duo-Safety ladder complement.” Gee you carry your 5 inch on the towers!

    “So all these cities run a total quint concept? “

    Yes, they all run their own version of a quint concept just like Detroit does!

    "When they close companies, yes it adds to response times".

    That is not a requirement to own a quint, or to run a quint concept. Take for example Richmond, the number of firefighters before and after budgeting for quints stayed the same, 50 guys and 2 stations were going one way or the other.

    “True and most local governments are just like you, you would have no problem cutting staffing levels if it's to your advantage. “

    So why don’t you list a place that I’ve ever cut jobs dirt bag!

    “Over 30 years we lost over 500 (we were 1870 FF's until 1975) firefighter positions but not through a quint concept. If the administration had had it's way a few years ago we would have been cut from 1330 FF's down to less than 900 FF's. We fought the concept and ended up getting 60 extra FF positions in the budget. Sure as he@! beats staffing cuts with a total quint concept. “

    How do you know? Maybe 500 jobs earlier a concept other than same as always would have saved some jobs…So you are nothing more than an example of how traditional engine and ladders cost jobs, even St Louis and Richmond can’t match your numbers.

    “AGAIN, NO WE DO NOT. I've lived in this city for over 50 years and 30 years on this department and you have the gaul to try and tell me what we run and what we don't run. GET REAL! “

    I have plenty of shots showing you’ve owned and operated to this day sutphen tower quints

    “That appartus has been the only apparatus in that section for over 70 years. They never had a truck in that section of town. The apparatus once had staffing of 6-7 until 1977 when they went to a 4 person crew. “

    So a quint provided enhanced service in that area and sustained the staffing level!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    “They also wouldn't have staffed them with 7-8 firefighters, they would have only staffed them with 3-4 depending on manpower that day. “

    That is your frigging choice not an issue of what kind of fire truck you do or don’t buy. Stupid people do stupid things, but all quint users are not doing that or even anything near a majority!

    BULL@H!T. We would be better of with 1390 firefighers than 900 or less. We are also better off with 21 ladder trucks, 3 platforms and 40 engines along with our 6 squads.

    That is your silly post not mine, I could give a dang if you go volunteer with your reverse lay mentality!

    “No they are not quints or maybe in your mind they are! A platform is not a true quint now is itThe 3 new Platforms we have are used almost totally for high hazard areas, 2nd alarms and above anymore. “

    Why don’t you come back to this debate after you read and understand the definition for a quint! Try NFPA 1901, you own a quint! Here is what NFPA says: “ Quint.* Fire apparatus with a permanently mounted fire pump, a water tank, a hose storage area, an aerial ladder or elevating platform with a permanently mounted waterway, and a complement of ground ladders.
    Rated Capacity (Aerial Device). The total amount of weight of all personnel and equipment that can be supported at the outermost rung of an aerial ladder or on the platform of an elevating platform with the waterway uncharged.


    SO NOW WE ALL KNOW YOU OWN AND OPERATE FOUR QUINTS AND HAVE OPERATED 3 FOR 30 YEARS! Anything else you want me to teach you about your fire department?

    “In a lot of areas, these new Platforms are too big for the streets and simply don't fit. “

    See how screwed up your fire department is? You intentionally buy rigs that won’t travel your streets! Boy is that dumb!

    “InYour definition of a quint must be different from mine, boy thats surprising.”

    No I use NFPA and you make up your own as you go, again!!!!!!

    “? They have no Aerial ladder, just the bucket with minimum compliment of ground ladders and they are never used as engines.”

    I could post sources for 50 shots of your towers pumping off hydrant supply, so that is not acting as an engine eh? Is that something a standard truck can do or some thing a pumper does? The 5th leg of a quint, PUMP.

    “The city didn't win, we fought hard and we won an extra 60 positions in the budget. “

    Nice job, now you are 60 and 500, that is what batting 12%, lol!

    “we didn't lose the staffing, we gained “

    Oh I see, 60 from 500 is a gain??? Sounds like you are still in the hole 440 jobs but I was never good at math!

    “Don't try and tell me what is or has gone on in this city over the last 30-40 years. “

    Obviously, you don’t know!

    “Your opinion on quints is exactly that, you're opinion. It does not mean others follow or even agree with that opinion.”

    Just the facts, sport! All the other places run their own concepts of fire protection, almost none follow your reverse lay gated wye concept, or 5 inch only on quints, stuff like that! Thank gawd too, the whole world would have burned out like Detroit!!@@@

    “What we comment on comes from our first hand experiences and travels. “

    Oh, I see, all these shots I have of Detroit running 4 quints on fires, using the pump etc, are real eh? Have Eisner send you a few hundred to review. Your experiences mean nothing if you don’t even know the definition of the term quint or concept.

    “Where did you get your FDNY numbers for raising a ladder on runs? “

    Fire engineering ****? There source FDNY. You can subscribe and do a back issue search!

    “(Of course if you count every EMS run and gas Leak you'll get those numbers.) But then again there is no need to raise Ladders on a fire in the 16th story of a project either...but you still need a Ladder Co. though! hmmm. “

    Don’t lose the point, we had small town guy telling us how many times he raises his ladder in anger and makes all these rescues, the reality, it 70% of all calls the ladder is not used or the pumper….

    “There are many FD's within the largest 400 you quote that staff 4 5 or 6 on a rig. (Boston,KC,FDNY,Chiago,Cincinn
    ati, etc.) “

    That list of 5 is not MANY of the 400 listed, the Phoenix staffing study is the most thorough and quint clear, there are 3 on most fire trucks in the U.S., end of story.

    “create a dummy internal report to deflect critism,”

    Care to give some specifics of what you are talking about?

    “urban FFs who have seen what quints and the policies that follow them have done to Fire Departments “

    For any urban FD you can list without quints I can list tow that run them successfully, care to try to support your claims

    “bringing any insight or thougts on any subject to the table for debate. “

    Ditto, but at least tell the truth!

    “However the LT, mine and it seems most other urban FFs have seen the realities of what Quints are used for and how they are deployed. “

    No you haven’t, the LT doesn’t even know what a quint is LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! You obviously don’t know how they are deployed and used either!

    “The only reason that the quints have been effective at all is the men who operate them and not the Chiefs who sold out to Bean counters and purchased quints. “

    The only reason, huh? Not because it can pump water like a real fire truck, or has a ladder just like any truck company, not because it has hose like all other engines, or carries water like other fire trucks, or carries ground ladders like other trucks???? Could it be it is just a tool is the real reason, that firefighters will use whatever is given to them and by far, most quints have nothing to do with staffing cuts!

    “Instead of being used to increase the tools available to Engines more offten than not they are to eliminate or avoid the creation of Truck Compaines.”

    Ok, here is a challenge, you tell me where they have cut staffing and I’ll give you five places they have not for each of your examples…. Anything you want to start let’er rip!

    “I saw all that nonsense that would break and never be fixed on your rigs. “

    All that non-sense, huh? Tell you what, did any of it have a name, like: saw, light, nozzle, etc, try being specific and tell us what things no longer work. And what was on the rig that isn’t on all fire trucks?? GO ahead once again I challenge you to be specific and make your case… You can’t and you know you can’t!!!!

    “fired”

    Want to try and support that claim as well? Shouldn’t be too hard to post something in writing unless you are lying AGAIN!!!!!!!

    “so instead of living in your dream land where every FD gets everything it wants, we'll deal with the real world situation and how it affects firefighters who work to make what little we get work for us every day. “

    Would you like to try and support that claim, where is that written? Give some examples. Nah, you’re going to run and hide and not back up anything you wrote today, aren’t you!!!!!!!!!! Coward! All talk no evidence.

    Yeah you’ll run off when challenged with the facts like the other posters!!!

  18. #43
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    The tower is not what I would ever term a quint Larry, regardless of the nominclature.

    Is it used to pump, yes. To think otherwise is obscene.

    Have we or will we use it as a first line attack pumper, NO.

    Will we use it the exact same way as an Aerial Truck, NO.

    The side streets that the apparatus will not get into are all older residentials and the Platform would be overkill, so it's not really an issue for those areas.

    Do I care if other cities are using quints, actually no I don't.

    We lost the 500 FF's and 22 Apparatus in the 70's when Detroit was on a total downward spiral. Do we have less buildings and population now, Of course. Is the city still basically a ghetto? Yes it is.

    Am I happy to see staffing increase, you bet. Even a minimal number is better than staffing reductions.

    If you call 3 Towers and 1 Quint out of 64 Apparatus a quint concept (pretty simplistic), be my guest.

    The area that the one apparatus covered was an area where there was almost no fires. The area is still that way. I'm not happy with the response times for the 2nd and 3rd arriving companies but hopefully one day that will be addressed.

    Your nit-picking Larry and it's unbecoming of someone who should be a professional but then again, maybe your not.

    I realize that your the Firefighting Guru

    I stated you probably wouldn't have a problem with cutting staffing, I never said you did. Now I haven't really attacked you Larry but Im inviting you here to visit and call me a dirtbag to my face. If you've got the guts come and get it. I'll provide you with my work location and we can have a little chat. I'm really trying not to lower myself to your childish talk but the invitation holds none the less.

  19. #44
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    I apologize to the members of this forum and the Web Team for the ending to my last post. I will not however apologize to imtxff44 (who likes to hide in anonimity and throw disparaging remarks). I have never hidden my information relating to where I work and the problems my city faces. I have been fighting fires in this city for 30 years and am proud of the fact I've survived, even with all the problems faced by my department over the years. I have been and will continue to dissagree with the Quint concept in my city. I will continue to voice my personal opinions on topics in these wonderful forums but remember they are my opinions and in no way should sway anyone from theirs. I enjoy a little banter, it's good for the soul but certain individuals seem to be way out of line at times. imtxff44 has a right to his opinion but needs to learn how to put forth his arguments in a gentlemanly manner but also needs to accept others opinions without totally attacking the members of this forum. I feel much calmer now.

  20. #45
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    23

    Default

    The tower is not what I would ever term a quint, regardless of the nominclature. “

    Fine, let’s try it together 1. Pump, 2 water, 3 ladder, 4, tower 5 hose compliment…gee 5 quint… NFPA, IFSTA, and ISO disagree with you, but I would agree with them and call it what it is, a true quint. See not my opinion. So you have FOUR not ONE as I stated from minute one and they did not cost you staffing, have increased the departments abilities as well.

    “Is it used to pump, yes. To think otherwise is obscene. “

    Yet you said your fire department does not use it as an engine when in fact they do. See your Fd had a choice run a 3 or 4 man engine and ladder to create aerial master streams or equip a quint to lay big hose and supply itself. And the rig has crosslays and other discharges to use when needed. That is a concept as much a FDNY’s dual combination ladders, or Memphis quads. Unlike the other poster for some reason being on a quint hasn’t made your crews stupid. You don’t pump reverse lays with it, or forget to be a ladder company.

    Have we or will we use it as a first line attack pumper, NO.

    No huh, so why does bill E have shots of an attack line off of one into the front of a house? No matter what, a tower comes across a fire and wouldn’t pull a line? Not even to save a life? You want all of us to believe that? Right? Are you really that professional you’d let people die before you’d spray water with it or attack a fire? And you speak for every crew and every member of your FD, I think not!

    You never supply handlines with your quints? See photo! http://www.detroitfirefighters.net/images/coldpicup.JPG

    Will we use it the exact same way as an Aerial Truck, NO.

    No, right! Won’t use ladders off it, won’t go to the roof, won’t perform rescues with it, won’t produce ladder pipes with it, won’t carry equipment with it, won’t carry a crew, I can prove you are wrong with tons of photos to the contrary.

    The side streets that the apparatus will not get into are all older residentials and the Platform would be overkill, so it's not really an issue for those areas.

    Yeah yeah yeah.

    Do I care if other cities are using quints, actually no I don't.

    No only own FOUR and they never leave the quarters ever right?

    If you call 3 Towers and 1 Quint out of 64 Apparatus a quint concept (pretty simplistic), be my guest.

    FDNY no pump on their towers, no water just ladders, and your FD added a pump, hose bed and water. It is a choice one that has taken you 30 years. Yeah it is the Detroit concept for towers and engines that now are also ladders. A ladder and engines is another concept. Snorkles without ladders pump hose or water is another used in Chicago. Pretty simplistic isn’t it? Are you keeping up?

    The area that the one apparatus covered was an area where there was almost no fires. The area is still that way. I'm not happy with the response times for the 2nd and 3rd arriving companies but hopefully one day that will be addressed.


    And running a quint instead of an engine has simply made the station much more capable until something else shows up, the quint didn’t cause that it improved upon the situation.

    Im inviting you here to visit and call me a dirtbag to my face.

    YOU’LL WILL NOTE YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE USING THE WORD DIRT BAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    So you cannot see how running a quint out of all stations that are not ladder equipped could improve fire protection in Detroit?

    You never bothered to tell us the name of an city other than St Louis that was total quint, how about name a fast 5 that are killing the fire service, should be easy if it is the problem you say it is!
    Last edited by imtxff44; 05-25-2003 at 12:49 AM.

  21. #46
    Forum Member
    FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Between here and there
    Posts
    790

    Default

    “True and most local governments are just like you, you would have no problem cutting staffing levels if it's to your advantage."

    My words, now point out where I stated you DID.

    So why don’t you list a place that I’ve ever cut jobs dirt bag!

    Your words Larry, not mine. Read what you write and if your going to call people dirt bags. You're going to be invited out. Take the invitation and you may even get pictures that are not so damn old. You've even posted pictures in the past that were almost older than the number of years I have on the job. Again, please come here and call me dirt bag to my face. It'll be interesting to say the least.

    Your right, I don't agree with their analogy. I would consider an appartus that will pump and has an areial and not a platform as a quint. Oh wait, that makes our 21 100" aerials Quints, not. Whether they disagree or not is of no concern to me and neither is your disagreement.

    "No only own FOUR and they never leave the quarters ever right"?

    Actually they rarely do to be honest. Exception would be Ladder 17, which like the other 2 operates as a dedicated Truck Company.

    "No matter what, a tower comes across a fire and wouldn’t pull a line? Not even to save a life? You want all of us to believe that? Right? Are you really that professional you’d let people die before you’d spray water with it or attack a fire? And you speak for every crew and every member of your FD, I think not"!

    All 3 Platforms are housed with an engine. Your question relating to coming across a fire is just plain ignorant and doesn't even deserve an answer.

    "You never supply handlines with your quints? See photo"!

    Larry you have to quit using such old photos. That picture is at least 12 years old if not older. If you'll notice those lines are no where near any entrance into the apartment building. After talking to a member of Ladder 7 that was at that fire (he's got a hell of a memory, I was actually surprised he remembered), the hand lines were never used and were being picked up. The engines had supplied more than enough lines.

    "Yet you said your fire department does not use it as an engine when in fact they do. See your Fd had a choice run a 3 or 4 man engine and ladder to create aerial master streams or equip a quint to lay big hose and supply itself"

    And the Platform waterway is only used at 2nd alarms and above. They are never used as an attack engine period! Remember, they're housed with an engine company, thats their job.

    "FDNY no pump on their towers, no water just ladders, and your FD added a pump, hose bed and water".

    Yes, and they did that so the Platforms could just flow big water for long periods on mostly collapsed or large structures thus allowing all engines but one to pick up and return to quarters.

    "No, right! Won’t use ladders off it, won’t go to the roof, won’t perform rescues with it, won’t produce ladder pipes with it, won’t carry equipment with it, won’t carry a crew, I can prove you are wrong with tons of photos to the contrary."

    Yes Larry it has ladders and it has been used for rescue on rare occasions. Will it be used as an attack engine, NO. The engine also 24 footers. Roofs will be laddered with the truck not the Platform (SOP's). Your other questions are just plain assine Larry. I hope your tons of photos aren't 15-30 years old as almost all have been.

    "And running a quint instead of an engine has simply made the station much more capable until something else shows up, the quint didn’t cause that it improved upon the situation".

    And it acts as an Engine only. All the dwellings in that area are 1 and 1 1/2 story and can be laddered with a 24 footer. It is only an area of about 1 1/2 square miles and the first truck on scene arrives on average in about 5-6 minutes. They have never used the ladder on the old one or the new because the only tall building there that ever had a fire was a 12 story apartment and the fire was on the 8th floor. The 100' aerial was raised from the truck. The city never bought this apparatus with the intention of its use as an Engine. It was absolutely intended to be used as a Truck Company with a stream volume capability for extra alarms.

    "So you cannot see how running a quint out of all stations that are not ladder equipped could improve fire protection in Detroit"?

    Not at the cost of losing 21 ladder trucks and and engine thus adding to response times throughout the city and cutting staffing levels. I don't consider that an improvement. So the answer is no.

    "You never bothered to tell us the name of an city other than St Louis that was total quint, how about name a fast 5 that are killing the fire service, should be easy if it is the problem you say it is"!

    I asked that question so why ask me to tell you. I don't spend my off days dwelling on fire departments, I have better things to do than have my entire life revolve around fire departments across the country. Do I believe a total quint concept is a problem, yes. I will always believe that cities that go to total quints are and will cut staffing and response times. I'm not talking about small departments here.

    Larry, unlike you I fight fires for a living and have been doing it for a long time in a city that is rife with discontent. We will continue to disagree about the quint and regardless of your old pictures, I know how they're used here. Come here and we'll ride together and you'll see and you'll learn what a really hot basement or attic fire can do for you. By the way, you won't see the platform laddering the roof, you'll see the ladder truck doing that (again, apparently our 100' aerial ladder trucks are quints also because they have pumps and can carry line, I think not) and yes the platform will be sitting in their quarters and when they do get the run, they operate as a Truck Company and not as an Engine but they will not ladder a roof with the bucket.

    I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that. If you want to know what really goes on, find out first hand. I'd love to have a little inter-personal discussion with you face to face.
    Last edited by FireLt1951; 05-25-2003 at 09:15 AM.

  22. #47
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    114

    Default

    I've been on these forums for a few years, and in my nearly 40 years on this planet I've rarely come across such an unlikeable character as *lhs in his many incarnates. It must be a terrible burden to be omniscient.

    We have 70 captains in our city, one of whom commands a quint and three of whom command platforms. Quite a quint concept. Even with our apparently ridiculous reverse-lay concept, somehow the fires manage to be be extinguished in a timely manner.

    If a blowhard dissects a respected lieuntenant's forum post in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a noise?

  23. #48
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    hmmmmmmmmm this was going fine until I see that a certain person is sneaking back into here ......we have a quint which runs as a truck. I only wanted to say that as long as the first qunit does "this" and the second does "that" and it is SOG, I dont get the beef. Also I am not sure that I understand the real difference in terms of engine and truck work really being "specialized" I mean cant anyone VES ? pull and deploy an attack line. It also sounds like spcec'ng the truck also has ALOT to do with its usefulness. It works for some and not for others ....... is it a fad ? Ida know but I get what certain departments that are using it are trying to do..............also not saying anything is right or wrong.....merely my diatribe about it.. wonder whats gonna happen next ?
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  24. #49
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Talking Right.

    Originally posted by DetroitFF


    If a blowhard dissects a respected lieuntenant's forum post in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a noise?
    No, because no one heard it. I have no axe to grind, no experience on a quint since my rookie days when I worked at a station that had 2 pumpers and a Ladder Truck. The truck was a 1954 Mack "B" with a 75' Mid mount stick and a 750 pump, 250 tank, and some hose along with all the normal Truck tools. The radio designation was "Truck 7" (Ladder companies are referred to as "Truck" in our system.) and we ran as a Ladder company. Period. Yes, I did use the "Engine" stuff, Oh, maybe 3 - 4 times in the 3 years that I worked at that station, (Riverdale, PG Co. Md) and every time it was because we had a NEED to do so. One occasion comes to mind, when both engines were committed to an incident, and there was an Automobile fire up the street from the station. We (I was the paid F/F driving the truck, with several Volunteers as the crew)responded and made short work of a car with a well involved engine compartment. The county Dispatch center sent an Engine from the next due station also. Every piece of Machinery on this planet is just that, a piece of Machinery. The role of that Machine is defined by man to suit his purpose. As shown in this thread, what one man defines as suitable for his purpose may be totally unacceptable to another man. Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  25. #50
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    23

    Default

    “Read what you write and if your going to call people dirt bags.”

    Like I said I never called anyone a dirt bag, but you sure tried to make it sound like I did, shame shame.

    “Your right, I don't agree with their analogy. I would consider an appartus that will pump and has an areial and not a platform as a quint. Oh wait, that makes our 21 100" aerials Quints, not. Whether they disagree or not is of no concern to me and neither is your disagreement.”

    Well that is just fine with me a rig with two abilities is also a quint. Kinda makes you wonder why the budget cutters for all these years always put attack line ability, a pump and water and ground ladders on all of your ladders doesn’t it? No supply hose, so They are all quads! Please feel free anytime someone calls you out with the facts, ie when you claim a fire truck isn’t a quad when in fact every definition says it is to simply say you don’t agree with the terms they use. That excuse and argument is as weak as most of your posts.

    Actually they rarely do to be honest. Exception would be Ladder 17, which like the other 2 operates as a dedicated Truck Company.

    They are quints end of story and the rest of your rigs are quads, they all do the job just fine and have not cost you lives or jobs.

    "No matter what, a tower comes across a fire and wouldn’t pull a line? Not even to save a life? You want all of us to believe that? Right? Are you really that professional you’d let people die before you’d spray water with it or attack a fire? And you speak for every crew and every member of your FD, I think not"!

    ? All 3 Platforms are housed with an engine. Your question relating to coming across a fire is just plain ignorant and doesn't even deserve an answer.

    Doesn’t deserve an answer, nah probably not, you throw around meaningless words about how you’d never do this and the never do that and when asked if you really mean what you say you run and hide from what you posted. In other words you lied and got caught.

    "You never supply handlines with your quints? See photo"!

    Larry you have to quit using such old photos. That picture is at least 12 years old if not older..

    No I don’t havge to stop using anything, you said you don’t do what the photo clearly shows you FD does, Why do you carry the equipment on all four quints if you never use it the way the photo shows? Because you lied, you have no control over how the rigs are used, after 30 years you are still a LT, what a joke!

    If you'll notice those lines are no where near any entrance into the apartment building.

    Gee good post, seeing how nothing shows where the rig is, you can makeup whatever you like. It shows tow handlines being run off the quints pump, you said you never do that.

    the hand lines were never used and were being picked up.

    Oh I see, your fire department picks up charged lines, yeah sure. They were never pulled either right? Any other lies you want to tell? You said you don’t do what the photo clearly shows! LOL

    The engines had supplied more than enough lines

    Obviously, that is why the tower had to pull tow, right? Because there were too many on the ground already???

    And the Platform waterway is only used at 2nd alarms and above.

    There is a written rule in Detroit that won’t allow a master stream from a platform until the 2nd alarm, yeah right, and any quint that stumbles across a fire cannot use its ladder pipe until a second alarm arrive, right? Now I’m starting to believe all the things that say how stupidly your fire department acts! Your always and never act is full of holes.

    They are never used as an attack engine period! Remember, they're housed with an engine company, thats their job.

    Yeah we can all see that in the photo that those handlines are not coming off the towers pump, it never happened and the engine it is housed with could never be busy, out of service, across town etc, kinda makes you wonder why all the quints carry water, hose, and pumps doesn’t it because they’d never use any of it in anger. You’all just had a bunch of money laying around and had to spend it. NEVER, be honest, tell the truth< I don’t work their and can post shots to the contrary right off your union web pages, shall I post a few more? I’m sure Bill will share the balance of the shots so we can see time stamped the lines are not being picked up and are flowing water at a fire. Never, does that cover all 30 years of your career?

    Yes, and they did that so the Platforms could just flow big water for long periods on mostly collapsed or large structures thus allowing all engines but one to pick up and return to quarters.

    So all the shots I can post of other companies in full operation throw the above out the window too, right? See what you really mean to say is you bought these rigs to perform whatever assignments they may ever be called upon and the building doesn’t really collapse until after the rig has been spraying quite a while like hours, and your web page and links I posted show dozens of examples to support my case. We all know how towers are used. And it is not just collapsed building now is it!

    Yes Larry it has ladders and it has been used for rescue on rare occasions.

    There you go again back tracking on one of your absolute statements. Gee ladders one of the legs of a quint.

    Will it be used as an attack engine, NO.

    Yeah I’ve already shown a photo proving that wrong, there are dozens more that show it attacking a fire. SO if an engine sprays water on a fire it is an attack engine, of quint sprays water with its own supply line and pump is it an attack piece as well. If the quint doesn’t have a pump doesn’t it need an engine like the other 21 ladders in town to supply the ladderpipe?????? YES, so the quints are supplying themselves and handlines, so one can conclude it is acting like an engine, fighting fire. Just like the designers 30 years wanted it to. What is more it is more efficient than any of your ladders or engines in moving water.

    The engine also 24 footers.

    Boy good thing nothing in Detroit is over 21 feet in height? I guess that is why you carry longer ladders on your quints right, because engines cannot reach what the quint can reach, right?

    Roofs will be laddered with the truck not the Platform (SOP's).

    And there is no way I can show a shot showing you are wrong, right? That anyone who ever used the tower for that gets fired right? Are you are you aren’t using another ALWAYS and NEVER that is full of holes???

    Your other questions are just plain assine

    Actually I just wanted everyone to see and how full of holes and empty all of your All and Never claims really are!


    THE QUINT And it acts as an Engine only.

    Yeah, right! That is why you spent twice as much money on it so it would never be used as anything but an engine. WRONG, you don’t make any sense with this whole line.

    All the dwellings in that area are 1 and 1 1/2 story and can be laddered with a 24 footer.

    So everyone who buys apparatus in your town is stupid putting all of the extra capability on the 25 quints or quads you run because YOU never and always do anything with them, no one is buying it!!!!!!!!!

    It is only an area of about 1 1/2 square miles and the first truck on scene arrives on average in about 5-6 minutes.

    Funny how now just a few posts later backup up response time isn’t important nor is staffing, you are two faced.

    They have never used the ladder on the old one or the new because the only tall building there that ever had a fire was a 12 story apartment and the fire was on the 8th floor.

    Anyone want to bet he is still lying about this?

    The 100' aerial was raised from the truck. The city never bought this apparatus with the intention of its use as an Engine. It was absolutely intended to be used as a Truck Company with a stream volume capability for extra alarms.

    So which is it? Why did you buy a double cost engine twice?



    Not at the cost of losing 21 ladder trucks and and engine thus adding to response times throughout the city and cutting staffing levels. I don't consider that an improvement. So the answer is no.

    No one is talking about the stupidity your city didn’t do, I am quite clearly talking about the quint in the 1.5 square mile area that isn’t needed, never used and bought twice. SO is it more versatile, does it, offer the officers options not possible with a regular engine?

    "You never bothered to tell us the name of an city other than St Louis that was total quint, how about name a fast 5 that are killing the fire service, should be easy if it is the problem you say it is"!

    I asked that question so why ask me to tell you.

    Proof positive again, you are full of beans. You said all these towns with total quint concepts, yet there is only one, RIGHT! And the only one running it hasn’t laid off even one third of what you have laid off with conventional engine ladder service, so how do you support our BULL! You can’t and like I said earlier you would end up running from your own statements and you are!

    I don't spend my off days dwelling on fire departments,

    Obviously that isn’t true this is your third day in a row on this are you working a 72 hour shift??? LOL!!!!



    I have better things to do than have my entire life revolve around fire departments across the country.

    Silly me to question you on a statement you made and expect you to supply any support for it, just another belief on something that does not exist RIGHT??? Just another term you can’t support, another photo you can’t explain real well!

    Do I believe a total quint concept is a problem, yes. I will always believe that cities that go to total quints are and will cut staffing and response times.

    And where are the cities, do they have names or are they just a belief? You run 25 quints and quads, yet you say they HAVE NOT COST YOU STAFFING, you are one of the largest users! Yet you can make the case how traditional service cost 500 jobs and your point is?

    unlike you I fight fires for a living and have been doing it for a long time

    First of all don’t even act like you know me, 2nd can you even support any part of the above sentence???


    We will continue to disagree about the quint

    No we don’t and won’t, you don’t know what a quint is and proved it nine ways to Sunday. So who can argue with anyone doesn’t even know what one is, makes up what he says his own FD does and doesn’t do and can’t even list more than one major city with “total quint” again his definition whatever it is supposed to mean. Are those other cities in the US or just in your mind? Name them or SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!

    ,Come here and we'll ride together and you'll see and you'll learn

    Yeah right, you guys are dangerous and one of the biggest jokes in the fire service for what 20 or 30 years, who else has Devils Night, half your fleet out of service and drunk firefighters on duty???? What a shame ever other month Detroit drags down the good name of the fire service!

    By the way, you won't see the platform laddering the roof, you'll see the ladder truck doing that

    Once again we never see the ladder truck operating a ladderpipe either, because your towers do that, but heck you don’t want me posting any more shots of you fibbing do you?

    (again, apparently our 100' aerial ladder trucks are quints also because they have pumps and can carry line, I think not)

    See there you go again a 30 year officer who doesn’t know rookie fire service technology, makes me wonder what other stuff you don’t know. Here I’ll help you again, four functions is a quad, not a quint.

    they operate as a Truck Company and not as an Engine but they will not ladder a roof with the bucket.


    Always right??? Never right?


    I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

    No I don’t agree with you because your statements are full of holes and your statements are hallow and definitions have no meaning.

    I'd love to have a little inter-personal discussion with you face to face.

    Obviously you can make an intelligent argument with your words so what makes you think you can do any better with your fists?

    MOVING ON>>>>>>>>>>

    ,,,we have a quint which runs as a truck. I only wanted to say that as long as the first qunit does "this" and the second does "that" and it is SOG, I dont get the beef.

    Do all the fire department out there really have trouble with their crews doing what they are told and following SOP??

    ,,,Also I am not sure that I understand the real difference in terms of engine and truck work really being "specialized" I mean cant anyone VES ? pull and deploy an attack line.

    Yes real firefighters can do anything! Some of the slugs on here are just that slugs and can't.

    ,,,,It also sounds like spcec'ng the truck also has ALOT to do with its usefulness.

    Kinda makes oyu wonder why anyone would buy the crap they willing buy then come on here and whine about it!

    ,,,It works for some and not for others ....... is it a fad ?

    No it is typically used as an excuse, that anything done is against the rank and file, no matter what it is, never take responsibility for your own actions blame the truck, manager, etc.

    ,,,Ida know but I get what certain departments that are using it are trying to do..............also not saying anything is right or wrong.....merely my diatribe about it.. wonder whats gonna happen next ?

    Same as always, guys will resist change with rediculous arguments!
    Last edited by imtxff44; 05-25-2003 at 11:33 AM.

Closed Thread
Page 2 of 3 First 123 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register