Bad Members

[Ratman]

I've got a good one for you.
After being called out to an alarm me and another Capt. arrived at our station to find our pumper missing. It took some time but we were able to track it down. It seems that one of our members decided that he would use it to fill his pool! After lying about having it at his house fixing it he told us he had permission to use the truck to fill his pool. I said that I couldn't give him S**T if he had permision but thought he had more common sense than to use the truck for filling up his pool. I talked to the deputy and fire chief. Nobody gave him permision. After a talk with the chief and a captain it came out that he wouldn't listen to myself or another Capt. because of the way we come across. He's late 40's and I'am in my late 20's with 10 years more service than him. He says that I should be like the other capts. and ask nicely instead of ordering them to do a task. This member is always critical of everyone. I tried to talk to him but he knows everything and is always right. I want this member fired but the chief won't. I've decided to step down from Capt. and give it to
a younger member. I've decided to ride this man hard until he quits. I know he's afraid of fire and will only run the pump.He went against everything a fire department stands for to save himself some money. What would you do?

[RES13CUE]

If no one gave this guy permission to use the pumper than he should be thrown out or at least suspended for his actions. I can tell you this if anyone in my department took an engine to fill a pool they would be tossed out on their ear by the chief. And if this nit-wit was filling his pool when you got the call why didn't he respond at least to the station to answer the call and pick-up man-power. My personal opinion is that your chief needs to hand out a suspension at the very least.

[Ratman]

I'll give you some more info.
He started to respond to the scene. I had a handheld in my buddies pov. I had him return to the station. I later found out he had his wife and kids with him. What a clown. After we talked to him he wouldn't listen to us and went and got another load. Now the residents are starting to find out what happened. I don't have to tell anybody how this makes us look. I'am ready to hang up my boots for good.

[RES13CUE]

After this whole thing transpired he went back for another load of water for his pool ? and this was allowed ? with his wife and kids on board ? why wasn't he stopped right there and than ? --- If your company is that laxed in its rules and didn't suspend this knuckle head than I place the blame not only on the "Pool Boy" but on your company officers for not acting. --- Disipline problems are among alot of Volunteer Fire Companies and all have diffrent ways of handling them.....but to sit back, allow him to remain a driver of the equipment, not suspend or terminate him from duty is just saying to him "Hey do what you want any time you want" --- Here's an idea - Suspend him one day for every gallon of water he pumped into his pool -- After a couple thousand days of suspension he may reconsider who he thinks he is. Have your chief grow a set of nuts and hand down the axe. ---- I don't think you should hang up your boots just face the disipline problem and act on it.

[Ratman]

The member involved is a very stubborn individual. He is in his late 40's. I'am in my late 20's and was hired on a career department. I'am also a capt. After coming out of training and experiencing different situations at work my eyes were opend up to many different ways of doing things. Unfortunatly I was involved in a rescue. The outcome was not good. I have tried to bring some of the things back to my department that I have learned. I get a lot of support from the younger members but this person will have no of it. He says that we are "only" volunteers and this is not the city. This fellow also works for the company that built our pumper. This is the main problem. He thinks it's his truck. Only he can run it. He won't let anybody run it. The other members were ****ed off so I took them out and taught them a few times. He was so upset he went to the deputy chief. He thinks that he is the only one who knows how to run the truck and he should teach. I'am not very happy with the support from my chief or my deputy. This member said to the chief he doesn't like the way I come across. He thinks when we are at a fire I should ask people to do things instead of ordering. He stated he will not listen to me and another Capt. What's wrong here? I think if your that unhappy it's time to quit. I like the volunteer service and most of the members, but I've had enough. I've decided to be the biggest pain in the *** to get him to quit. Anbody have any ideas?

[JeepFireNY]

Why hasn't he been suspended yet???? Don't make him quit, he should have to quit. If your Chief's and Disciplinary Board (if you have one?) haven't suspended him yet, then you guys deserve what you get.

[jsdobson]

Ratman,

The idea you are "only a volunteer" fire department doesn't fly. I'm guessing your fire service has the same standards whether career or volunteer. The fire apparatus are for the protection of the community and not for the benefit of the individual.

If you haven't suspended or permanently terminated the offender, better do so quickly.

AFTER you have documented the reasons why.

Then......make sure you change the locks!!!

[iceman4442]

A perfect example of why every department, paid or volunteer has to have S.O.P.'s, S.O.G.'s, whatever you want to call them.

You violate them, the range of consequences is specified. It takes some of the heat off the chief or other officers who have to carry them out, but it sounds like your chief needs to "grow a pair." (As has already been stated)

Unauthorized use of an apparatus will get you a minimum suspension, but the way this case looks to have happened, it should be higher! If this guy is as you describe him, your department would be far better off without him.

Just a thought - wouldn't it be better to stay in your position as a captain so you can have more of an effect at improving your department? Otherwise, if you step down, about the time you're "riding him hard", he makes a complaint against you, and that would be about the time your chief has grown enough of a pair to do something, except you'd be the one on the receiving end!

Good luck!

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

What's wrong here?
1. Your department is a mess.
2. You officers have no backbone.
3. This guy actually runs your department.
4. It won't change until he is gone.

If your department is funded by taxpayer dollars, look at this question...

Would you allow a private citizen to come and take the apparatus to fill their pool? If not, why was the member allowed?

It is misappropriation of taxpayer money. In NJ, if tax payer funded equipment were used for personal gain, it could be a criminal offense.

[SFDchief]

Easiest solution, suspend him for using the vehicle without permission, having non-dept members riding, insubordination, being an idiot (ok, maybe that one won't stick). After he's suspended and he still decides to come around the firehouse, have him arrested for trespassing.

Nothing ticks me off more when I hear I'm just a volunteer. For those of you that get, or can obtain a copy of the New York State Assoc of Fire Chief magazine, (Size Up), there's a very good article in the Spring 2002 issue on this very subject. Without going into much detail, some of the key points of the article are as follows:

The definition of "volunteer" is defined by Websters "To enter into any service of one's own free-will". So in retrospect, "A volunteer firefighter is simply a person who has dedicated themselves to the preservation of lives and property".

In the fire service isn't there a chain of command? Don't you have to follow orders? This make's it a para military organization. So just being a volunteer does not mean you can do what you want, when you want.

Fire does not discriminate. Whether you are a volly or career firefighter, the dangers are the same. The need for training are the same.

The next time he says that I would politely (or not so politely) show him the door with an assignment. Give him a copy of your agency's SOP's (or SOG's) and let him pick out every rule he's violating. If he can't do that, then suspend him.

[Ratman]

Thanks for your replies everyone.
Just to let you know we have no written S.O.P.'s or G.O.G's.I'am very dissapointed in my deputy chief and chief for "not having a pair".
We are a tax payer funded department, and we are paid on call. We don't have many runs. Maybe this is why they are not to concered.My deputy gets $200 a month to be on call. He says he doesn't make enough money to argue with anybody.Unreal hey! I've talked to a number of other firefighters and I have their support. I really don't want to go behind the chiefs back(we work on the same career department). I've decided to mention this in front of the whole department at our next drill in hopes he will be laughed at and quit.
Just to let you know our officers can only do as much as we are allowed. If it was up to me he would have been fired on the spot.
Has anybody ever had this much trouble with a member?

[SFDchief]

Well now I can almost understand why the chief isn't phased by these actions (not that I agree with it). A writen set of SOPs/SOGs (or some set of rules and regulations) is as important for a chief officer as it is for a probie. Most that I have seen spell out what is expected of members and what they can and can't do.

As far as the chief not making enough money to argue with anyone? I find that to be nothing but a cop out. If you take the position, you should deal with the BS. Sounds like he's only chief to wear a white hat. As a chief you have to reprimand people when appropriate.

Based on the chief's actions (or lack there of), this sends out a message to all the members that they can do what ever they want, when they want and not get in trouble for it. That's not a very good chief. If you take the position (volly or paid), you need to take the responsibility. Letting people walk all over you is not very responsible.

You say your a tax payer funded dept. While I don't know the exact structure of it, is there anyone higher you can go to? Although you stated you don't want to, based on what your saying, it's something that should be done. I personally wouldn't hesitate to do it.

My dept is tax funded. The chiefs are nominated by the dept, then elected by the Board of Fire Commisioners. The commisioners is a board of 5 town elected officials responsible for controling the tax money allocated for fire protection. Each chief in my dept answer to them. If a chief failed to perform his (or her) responsibilities, they let you know about it. The chiefs are not componsated monitarally either.

To answer your last question, yes. I have had trouble with members. I have also had to take disiplinary action for their actions. Often it was in the form of suspentions, but at times in the form of more "constructive" punishment. Once in a while it'll be in the form of rewriting the rule or SOP that was violated.

Hope this helps you. You idea of addressing it in front of the dept sounds good. Strength in numbers couldn't hurt. Good Luck!

[d308fd]

I am surprised that the pumper was used even If he had permission. I have been involed in depts where trucks were used to fill pools for a donation but they always used the 2nd or 3rd out TANKER not a main line truck or pumper. For the permission part I would think that the actions this guy took would be grounds for dismissal volunteer or career. And at last for the part of not geeting paid enuff to argue, Not an excuse It is still the guys responsiblity.

Anyway time for me to shut-up before I say something I mean

Be safe
D308

[stevejd]

You have bigger problem than this one guy. You have the potential to have several members like this one. As stated you need to start with your Chief officers. They need skills, tools and policies to provide a backbone to the department.

Riding him to chase him out will only give him ammunation towards you so be careful with that tactic. Rally your members to force the changes to get rid and stop guys like this one.

Good Luck and keep us posted this sounds like it could get interesting.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I meant that this problem member actually runs the dept. Not the Chief.

You say your a tax payer funded dept. While I don't know the exact structure of it, is there anyone higher you can go to? Although you stated you don't want to, based on what your saying, it's something that should be done. I personally wouldn't hesitate to do it.

How about law enforcement? The guy misappropriated public property. It's a crime.

[ramseycl]

I know that our department has allowed the use of a tanker to wet down a horse arena, but everything was approved days in advance and it was turned into a training excersize. Several new members gathered and practiced pump operations and hose handling while they were performing a service for a member of the community. That is the only way that we are allowed to use department equipment.

[lutan1]

Whilst this guy is definitely a problem, it sounds to me that a few key people in leadership roles need to grow some balls!

They've got a duty to perform, not only for the members but also the public.

Imagine the uproar if your response times were compromised by this fool (And the incompetent leaders) and someone lost a house or worse still- died! (I know I'd certainly be going VERY "public" if I lost my home or my loved ones becasue your truck was filling up a members pool.)

There is no room in any service for these type of people. Step down or step aside. In the words of World Wrestling- GET THE 'F' OUT!

[Ratman]

I'll Give you all an update.
I finally had a face to face with this member after a call. It was heated so I'll let you know what led up to it.
We had just had a run an hour before. I was still working in the hall when a second alarm came in. I put on my gear and took my seat beside the operator. I confirmed the address and that we were responding. One of our newest members was first in the station. I taught him how to run the pump and knew he could do it well and asked if he would drive. ( first time on a call.) He said he would and sat down and put on his belt. I decided to wait for more members(I was already there and he lives across the street.)The member we have problems with showed up next. He got dressed and opened the drivers door. He order the driver out and said he was driving. I told him no, were not changing drivers, get in the back. He refused, slamed the door and told us to leave without him. On our way back I called the chief and told him what happened.
He was there when we returned and I told him to calm down.I explained that I wasn't going to waste time changing a driver just because he wants to drive. Everyone needs to learn and he knows how to run the pump. He replied that the chief appointed him "driver operator". I told him it's news to me. I asked when and he said last year sometime. After he argued he said he was going to quit. That it's all my fault, that I gave his job away. "If I can't pump I have no other job."He told me he would do nothing else but pump, because he's to old(late 40's).

The chief showed up I said ok let's work this out. He wouldn't stay.
The chief knew nothing about making him operator. The funny thing is he had just talked to him about the pool thing. He told him if he wasn't pumping he wanted him in scba working. He agreed.
This member is full of b.s.
were going to have an officers meeting and finally deal with this.
I'll let you know how it ends.

p.s. He still thinks it was alright to fill his pool. This guy has rocks in his head.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

After he argued he said he was going to quit.

This was your golden opportunity. I would have had his gear in so fast he wouldn't know what hit him.

BY caving in to this guy, your Chief is proving that this guy runs your FD.

[captfire]

I know that if someone on my department took and engine to go fill anyones pool, he would be terminated. As for your chief not wanting to fire this guy, I would take this issue up in front of the Board of Directors. I am an Asst. Chief with my department, and if this case was to be brought up in my department, the whole officer core would make a decision on the matter and then the Board would have the final say.

Thanks and BE SAFE