1. #101
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    I would like to apologize to all if any have viewed my comments as inappropriate.

    I have tried to keep my comments as neutral as possible, reminding all that we were not there, and that no matter how well we do things, no matter what book we follow, things can go wrong.

    It is sometimes difficult to accurately say what you are trying to in the forums. Things may be misunderstood, or taken the wrong way.

    I will wait to see what the report says, hpoping that this tradgedy does not take any more with it. I meant no disrespect for anyone, and I mourn for the loss of our brothers.

    Dave

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    everyone knows in this field that the media tells only part of the facts and fills in the rest with a bunch of BS
    Yup.

    (this will be my only comment on the subject)

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    Originally posted by truck71fireman All you are doing is relying on what the media has posted,
    truck71fireman

    I have contacted the media several times about quotes which were attributed to certain people for clarification, as of yet I have received no reply from them.

    A discussion has ensued based on certain things that have been said, but it is not ment to be disrespectful to the fallen, the families, or any members of the FD. It was ment to be a learning tool, so that this wont happen again. Granted there are A LOT of unknowns, unless perhaps you would care to enlighten us, but that doesn't mean that something can't be learned here.

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    Default More news or maybe not


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    Since the Constitution only refers to criminal investigation, are you trying to tell us something?

    Are attorney's being hired because the investigators have determined a crime has been committed?

    Maybe Captstanm1 is questioning the move with good reason?
    People who read my postings know that I do not speak in hidden meanings. I am not "trying to tell you something".

    I know, as a criminal investigator, that anything you out on tape or paper, with the exception of a few court protected confidences, is fair game for criminal investigators. These guys were wise in seeking legal advise during a time of presonal tragedy and stress.

  6. #106
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    Default Not sure about the computer

    I understand a camera was used, no time or date stamp. Not sure about the computer. There is I have been told communications tape of radio transmissions. To my knowledge (very limited) no computer.

    Appreciate your reply George.

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    Post Saving Lives

    Deadly fire may help save lives

    I hope you experts discuss this topic til the cows come home if it can save one life.
    Last edited by lilsisterosceol; 09-05-2002 at 01:12 AM.

  8. #108
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    Glad to see some news coming out but I have to agree with the "officials" that say..."6 months is a long time to wait."

    The educational process needs to begin now. Not wait 6 months. It is great that they intend to turn this negative into a positive in an attempt to educate all of the people involved as well as others across the nation. How will they educate? Will every single fire department across the nation receive the information and how can we be sure they will get it. That is a lot of paper and a lot of video tapes if they release the re-creation for review.

    The only flag that raises as I read the article is the admission that a matress was use which is contrary to the initial report and stern statements that "Only Class A materials....Straw and Palletts were being used.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    Default You must have missed the article released earlier, Sunday I think

    Captstanm1, did you miss the piece prior to this one? I sure was surprised that no one on this forum mentioned it.

    County Commission Chairman Paul Owen said Friday that Fire Chief Don Adams told him a foam-rubber mattress was used in the training fire. National firefighting guidelines followed by the county do not permit certain materials to be used in training because of the volatility, including rubber, plastic and pressure-treated wood.

    "I don't know what that means. I am not an expert" Owen said. "That's why I am really waiting to see the fire marshal's report. There are a lot of other issues to address such as ventilation and things like that."

    Adams said he could not comment on any details of the fire, which he did not attend, until the state finishes its investigation. Adams said a mattress fire would not necessarily lead to a flashover.

    "There are so many variables" Adams said. "That is why we are waiting for the state's investigation."

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    Yes...I saw it...but let it go until I read it two times.

    It seems that more things are surfacing.....I am very glad they are already planning to share the information. Unlike Lairdsville..this can be shared, at least at this point. Lairdsville is still in litigation and nothing will get out on that except the report. I am hoping they are going to re-create that one also.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  11. #111
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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    Yes...I saw it...but let it go until I read it two times.
    You're not alone. I (and I'm guessing many others), in an attempt to not jump all over the first report, which seemed speculative at best, let it go until it was released in a more official manner.

    My only question is ... why? Why do you need the foam rubber mattress? After all that has happened ... why?

    Stay Safe

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    "Koedam said the use of a live burn should help investigators determine what happened, not assess blame. The goal is to learn from the tragedy."


    Why is everyone so afraid to assess blame? Why are we so careful not to make it look like someones fault? Indications are that a foam mattress was used, a direct violation of NFPA 1403. It is very possible that other violations made or safeguards not taken will be made public. Should our goals be not necessarily to learn from the tragedy, but to prevent the tradegy from happening.......again?

    We have already learned what happens when recognized standards, and common sense rules are ignored....unfortunately we have learned over and over again. Maybe it's time we stop trying to learn, and start taking steps to make sure it doesn't happen again.

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    Computer fire modelling programs are very sophisticated zome models and can accurately predict pre-flashover fire conditions. As far as I know, only the most spohisticated can do anything with post-flashover predictions. The fire model is not a 3D animation of the fire. It is either a mathematical printout or a color-coded mapping of the compartment broken up into thousands of tiny little cubes. The modelling program takes a little bit of time to load the data, and requires a user to have more than a working knowledge of fire dynamics. It also requires the input of data on the compartment, such as size, wall finish, ceiling finish, openings, when the openings were made, HVAC airflow, etc. It is not a glorified computer game.

    Secondly, will everybody do me a favor and never use the term "alligatoring" again. This word is no longer used in fire investigation. The pattern of charring on wood cannot tell you how long the fire was burning, how hot the fire got or where it started. What it tells you is where the burning may have been most intense. But it is up to the investigator to interpret the patterns and apply them to the particular situation.

    Thirdly, let's look theoretically at foam rubber. It has a relatively low ignition temperature (less than 500 degreess F)and a heat release rate several times that of the same amount of wood. The prodcuts of combusiton are also more plentiful and complex. In a flashover, the products of combusiton (smoke layer at the ceiling) ignite just as readily as the material in the compartment. It stands to reason that if there are more flammable gasses at the ceiling with a relatively low igntion, you are going to reach flashover in a far shorter period of time. In addition, the larger quantity of solid material (more material in a mattress than a chair) the more fire gasses and more heat you are going to have.

    NIST produced a video of some test burns a couple of years ago. One of the test burns is of a conventional living room set up with a sofa with cellular foam cushions. The fire began in the sofa. The room went to flashover in about three minutes.

    This is why they don't allow cellular foam products under NFPA 1403. I do not know if they were used in FL. This was a general discussion of cellular foam products.

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    Thank you Kristen, I am well aware of the fact that NFPA standards are just that.

    My point was, these standards were written in the blood of those who had already died. They were written for the sole purpose of preventing similar deaths from happening. They were written to provide information, guidelines and safety measures to follow in order to prevent similar deaths from happening needlessly.
    NFPA standards are a recognized authority in the Firefighting community. A Department need not formally adopt them in order for a court of law to recognize them as "the recognized standard" Besides, any Department that has purchased equippment based on NFPA standards has knowingly recognized NFPA as the "recognized authority" As we discussed in the Lairdsville thread, choosing not to adopt these standards does not absolve one of the liability or blame should something happen.
    Last edited by LadyCapn; 09-05-2002 at 11:23 AM.

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    Hey, he's my academic advisor.

    Helluva nice guy.

    Yeah, okay, I'll stick my nose back in that book.

  16. #116
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    Default Why the sarcasms?

    If everyone is this thread is trying to get to the same place-i.e. the final, definitive answers from the final, definitive report; you wouldn't know it from some of the sarcasms being posted in this thread. A different point of view; a different, educated opinion/guess; a difference of opinion or an entirely different angle of thought does not need to be met with disdain or sarcasm. Everyone is here to get the answers to this tragic event. Have at least a little respect for the opinions of each other and check the sarcasm, along with the egos at the door! At this juncture, everything is pure speculation. Take it for its entertainment value and check out another thread.
    IMACOJ, but who asked me? Who cares?

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    Default After further review.....

    I have read every post in this thread and I stand by my comments.
    My "comprehensions" are correct. No need to apologize; maybe make a few minor adjustments.
    IMACOJ; I know some things!

  18. #118
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    I am with ladycapn and Chief Reason. I may be guilty to a point but everything I have put on here came from somewhere. I did not make it up and I was attempting to pass on information to generate discussion. I appologize for any sarcasm on my end as well as my earlier post that cause some unhappiness.

    AS ladycapn says...we need to focus on the cause and why it happened and stop skirting who is responsible.

    For one to imply that just because NFPA is only a guideline or standard that you can chose to follow it or not is ludicrous. If you do not follow it (as ladycapn says...) you can be held liable when the proverbial "poop" hits the fan. As the lady says...they may be recommendations...but they are recommendations made that are written on the heels of the untimely death of a brother or sister firefighter.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  19. #119
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    Post Let it go....

    You are right....fact is fact and opinion is opinion and fiction is fiction...

    And yes......The legal parties involved can chose to reference the standards or not. But...They are nationally recognized standards, so do you think that any lawyer or Prosecutor will ignore them and say..
    "Oh..Yes...I know there are standards for Training,Equipment and Apparatus that are Nationally recognized. I understand they have been developed in the interest of enhancing firefighter safety by firefighters and other professionals across the Nation. But in this case I do not think they apply."

    Of course they will not say that and the answer that you received from NFPA was an out of the book, standard, politically correct response. Responses like that keep them out of court. Despite who you identified yourself as, the NFPA spokesperson does not know that you are not a lawyer in disguise.

    Your question to Chief Reason about his concerns over sarcasm should be handled between you and him in a private message or email. If he choses not to answer...let it go. As others have done here...in discussing his concern for sarcasm he is passing an opinion.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  20. #120
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    Default Chill!

    Kristin:
    Don't take it so personally. If you weren't posting sarcasms, then disregard my post. If the shoe doesn't fit....
    My suggestion to check out other threads was just that. There are alot of good threads that should be given a look. I wasn't telling anyone to go somewhere else. I was suggesting that they take a break and see what else is out there.
    I don't "run" these forums, so I won't be so presumptuous. Many of the things that I say in these forums are said with a wink. Many who know me know that!
    I quit taking things so personally along time ago(thank you, Mongo and BucksEngine 91). My opinions, unlike my money, is something that I like to share. I may agree with you this time and I may not the next time. Don't make me an enemy of the state if I don't agree. I will do it with and out of respect; unless you're a pup or a mutt!
    You're reading too much into it; you'll go blind looking for grist where there is none.
    And thank you, Stan; you know me all too well. I will be sending you a PM this evening when I get off of work. Got some catching up to do.
    IMACOJ with stuffed crust!

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    While I will agree that there is no need for sarcasm, I think...and yes I have said this before.....that until the investigation is complete....and ALL the details are out...anything here will be conjecture. I understand that the absence of information tends to cause speculation. All I am saying that in due time there will be answers. Answers to which opinions will based, changes will be made, and ultimately responsibilty assigned. Until then remember that we are talking about people, brothers. Two of them were killed, but many others were there and were involved in the incident. Every comment here is taken to heart. That was the reason for the attack on Stan, and for this very thread being discussed in other places on the web.

    I guess it boils down to putting yourself in the others guys shoes.

    And I am not saying that there hasn't benn productive information here, just saying that sometimes we need to look and how and when we say it. That was why I posted my apology and why I am posting this.

    Remembering our our fallen Brothers......

    Dave
    Last edited by hfd66truck; 09-06-2002 at 09:55 AM.

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    Of course they will not say that and the answer that you received from NFPA was an out of the book, standard, politically correct response. Responses like that keep them out of court.
    What political correctness? NFPA is a private corporation, not a governing body. They are int he business, among other things, of creating documents that government entities are free to adopt if they want to. The debate comes up when you look at the people who create these documents. I don't have to tell you about the document creating process (I am on the Tech Comm. for NFPA 1033). But the people on the committee represent a cross-section of the industry. These people are generally chosen for their knoweldge skill and experience. No, they are not the best, per se, but cumulatively, they represent a vast body of knowledge. That is why many NFPA documents are recognized by many fire service people and many courts as standards of care in the industry.

    There are a few of their documents, like 1403, where there are no other documents like it. If there was a better way to do it, somebody would have published it and it would be as widely recognized as 1403.

    Kristin, I am personal friends with Mr. Duval. He is one of the most competent, conscientious investigators out there. I would strongly recommend that you tell him that you are going to post his emails to you on this forum before you do it. That is common courtesy.

  23. #123
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    Well, among all the recent posts on whatever noses are getting out of joint (and frankly I kinda couldn't follow it...)

    The other shoe seems to have been dropped in last night's news:
    http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2002/fl_jul30c.html

    Sixth paragraph.

    Now, I'm really, really off the 'net till Tuesday after I leave the office this afternoon!

  24. #124
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    George...wondered when you would jump back in.

    Thanks for the information you provided refrence NFPA..hope that helped some folks who don't get it.

    Now that they have made the statement in the article that Dalmation90 linked to us perhaps the rest of the report will come soon.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    With the information thats out it appears to have been a flashover. Its true to say the fire load , foam and wood are a big part of what burns in most residential fires that we all have encountered .Whether the window self vented , was vented from the inside or outside is not as important as the tactic of searching in a tight non vented building entrance door closed, fully encapsulated in bunker gear and hoods is something that might be learned from in a sad event such as this. Because whether a window fails due to heat or is taken. The out come on the inside is the same. I feel there is alot to be learned from this fire once all the pieces are put together its not just about codes and rules but more about tactics..

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