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  1. #81
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Default

    Ok....you ladies are tag teaming me...so I will give you that one. It just seemed a bit odd...that was my point...

    Anxiously awaiting more information....
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.


  2. #82
    Forum Member lilsisterosceol's Avatar
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    Default Wondering

    Does the Sentinel article imply Orange County is left to their own resources? What was their part in the training? Guests? None of the Orange County Training Officers involved with this training and if so, will their county do the same for them?

  3. #83
    Forum Member lilsisterosceol's Avatar
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    Default Tks, now I understand what this meant

    County commissioners set no cap at the cost of the outside counsel, and the benefit may extend beyond the 11 Osceola firefighters who were at the former Florida Bible College when the accident happened.

    I did not perceive this to be officers only. I understood the "may extend" portion to include the officers, but perhaps it means it will include Orange county as well. I will check with April Hunt.

  4. #84
    Forum Member lilsisterosceol's Avatar
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    Default I'm going to quit posting while I am behind, can't seem to get it right.

    The joint training was not with Orange County, but with the City of Orlando. After it was brought to my attention, I pulled up some of the news reports and they do indeed say Orlando and not Orange County. I wondered why so many of you were referring to the city when Osceola is clearly a county and not city department.

    Osceola/County Department
    Orlando/City Department

    I don't know how much difference it makes to you, but I am sure it makes a difference to Orange County and the City of Orlando.

  5. #85
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    Default

    If all is on the up and up...then why the need for an attorney...and why would the city be so gracious to pay for it....?
    1. It is everyone's constitutional right to be represented by an attorney in an investigation. I would do it and you would do it. It is a smart thing to do, especially when you have been through a traumatic event and may not be thinking clearly.

    2. The city is paying for it now because;
    a) The incident clearly occurred while they were on-duty and participating in an autjorized department activity.

    b) They are going to be forced to pay for it anyway. They might as well do it now instead of later with interest.

  6. #86
    Forum Member lilsisterosceol's Avatar
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    Default Ut oh George, I don't agree with # 1 or are you trying to tell us something?

    Since the Constitution only refers to criminal investigation, are you trying to tell us something?

    Are attorney's being hired because the investigators have determined a crime has been committed?

    Maybe Captstanm1 is questioning the move with good reason?

  7. #87
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    An investigation is just that, an investigation. Any statements made during the course of an investigation can be used against an individual in both a criminal complaint or a civil one. You tell me, would you have a lawyer represent you? I know I would. Lets try an keep everything in perspective.....I know its hard. It still sounds to me like a routine, albeit thorough, investigation. Hold tight...the answers will come.

    Dave

  8. #88
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    Default

    ^

  9. #89
    Forum Member lilsisterosceol's Avatar
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    Default excerpt only

    Orlando Sentinel
    Sunday, August 25, 2002
    Commentary

    "And the longer we wait, the more I wonder about the answers. There's even less information surrounding the deaths of firefighters Dallas Begg, 20, and Lt. John Mickel, 32."

    That one really bothers me, because the state Fire Marshal's Office originally said a preliminary report would come out a day or two after the tragedy. Wednesday will make four weeks -- and not a word from anybody. I feel for their family and co-workers.

    "It sure makes you think."

    Yep. Are investigators just being overly cautious, or . . . well, I don't even want to think about alternatives. There are bunch of things I want to know about what happened that day at the Florida Bible College -- and some of it is basic stuff -- but no one is talking.

    end.......
    Thought I would share this with you. It seems I am not the Loneranger.

    Taking your advice Dave, holding tight....
    Last edited by lilsisterosceol; 08-25-2002 at 02:16 AM.

  10. #90
    Forum Member lilsisterosceol's Avatar
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    Default Yes

    Have you tried contacting the State Fire Marshal's office?

    Yes, I have no comment on the State Fire Marshal's office at this time.

    The last interview with the City of Orlando firefighters took place last Saturday, I was sure the report would be out this week.

    Thank you for the suggestion stroutkristen. It is comforting to know folks haven't forgotten our hero's and their families.

  11. #91
    Forum Member lilsisterosceol's Avatar
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    Default Training resumed

    Media is cognizant of our loss. Yesterday's TV News declared the Volusia Firefighters Training facility was used for the first time since the Florida Bible College tragedy. They also noted this training facility is much more controlled than was the Florida Bible College training, although we understand there is a danger entering any burning building. One firefighter was injured, slightly, everything else went well and we feel some relief for it. Kudo's to News Channel 2, Orlando, FL.

    Thank you Kristen
    Last edited by lilsisterosceol; 08-25-2002 at 11:40 AM.

  12. #92
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Post Related Story

    Here is a related story from Tampa.

    http://www.tampatrib.com/FloridaMetro/MGA1FLMPB5D.html
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  13. #93
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Question

    From the Tampa Tribune article
    Osceola County Emergency Services officials aren't sure what led to the July 30 deaths of Lt. John Mickel, 32, an 11-year veteran, and firefighter- EMT Dallas Begg, 20, hired July 22. The men died during a training fire in a one-story structure at the old Florida Bible College.

    ``We're not going to speculate at this point because they [the state fire marshal's office] really haven't given us any sound findings,'' said Osceola County public information officer Twis Hoang.
    I had hopes of contacting the State Fire Marshal by E-mail...but there was no listing on their website. I, and others, would certainly like to know where this investigation stands. And I'm sure the families would like some closure also.

    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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  14. #94
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    Default

    From the Tampa Tribune Online Edition
    To ignite a training fire, firefighters use common combustibles, ``old crates, boxes, old couches,'' Wade said.
    You have got to be kidding me ... did he really say this? Did he really let the newspaper quote him on this? Captain Bill Wade - spokesman for Tampa Fire Rescue - admitting, on the record, that they don't follow NFPA 1403? Oh boy ...

    Just like everybody else, I'm still waiting for the report. But, I can say, we just had an acquired structure live burn this weekend. We followed 1403 to the letter of the law. It was realistic, it was great practice, everybody had a blast, and there was never, at any time, anyone, or anything out of control. IT WAS SAFE. How someone could follow 1403 and have it not be safe is beyond me ... which means then, in my opinion, that if it's not safe, well then it must be a duck. And if people die, then it definitely ain't safe.

    Stay Safe (ironic, ain't it?)

  15. #95
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    POST REMOVED FOR CONTENT. USER WARNED.

    DO NOT POST 'RUMORS' OF A PERSONNEL NATURE HERE. IT IS HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THIS INCIDENT.

    THANK YOU
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    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  16. #96
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Edited- referenced a post that was removed by administrator.
    Last edited by NJFFSA16; 08-29-2002 at 10:59 AM.
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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  17. #97
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    Originally posted by PA Volunteer
    How someone could follow 1403 and have it not be safe is beyond me ...
    I said this earlier, we are still talking about "live" fire exercises. If fire was that controlable(is that a word?) then we would be out of work. I am not indicating that 1403 should not be followed. All I am saying is that everything can go by the rules and poop can still happen.

    Dave
    Last edited by hfd66truck; 08-30-2002 at 07:42 AM.

  18. #98
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    POST REMOVED FOR CONTENT. USER WARNED.

    DO NOT RETALIATE AGAINST OTHER POSTS. REPORT THEM, REGARDLESS OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND THEY WILL BE DEALT WITH APPROPRIATELY.

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  19. #99
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    Default

    Originally posted by hfd66truck
    I said this earlier, we are still talking about "live" fire exercises. If fire was that controlable(is that a word?) then we would be out of work. I am not indicating that 1403 should not be followed. All I am saying is that everything can go by the rules and poop can still happen.
    hfd66 truck - I agree with you. Following NFPA 1403 to the letter of the law does not mean that poop will not happen. What it does mean, though, is that, when the poop does happen, there are measures in place to ensure that all personnel remain safe.

    Do I believe that poop can not happen, and we can not lose control of a fire if NFPA 1403 is followed? No. It is certainly still possible.

    Do I believe that if NFPA 1403 is followed, everyone will remain safe? Yes - it is extremely difficult to follow 1403, as you should, and have someone not remain safe. I guess it is possible (because anything is possible), but extremely difficult.

    Stay Safe

  20. #100
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    Default

    It is refreshing to see that finally, a forum newcomer can bring attention to the "veterans" who continue to post, sometimes ad nauseum.

    Sometimes, the ones with the most posts means they know the least about a whole lot more things.

    Ahrens S. Fox, thank you. You were right on and your comments are much appreciated.

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