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  1. #1
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    Post Osceola County Florida Training Deaths...Discussion

    I started this thread so we can discuss the details as they unfold. This will keep us off the thread that is offering condolences. As I

    Here is today's article from the St. Petersburg Times. As I hear and read more I will post it.



    Fatal training accident investigated
    ŠAssociated Press
    August 1, 2002
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    KISSIMMEE -- Investigators were still working on a theory Wednesday about how two Osceola County firefighters were fatally burned in a training accident.

    Dallas Begg, 20, and Lt. John Mickel, 32, died Tuesday at separate hospitals after the exercise at the defunct Florida Bible College west of Kissimmee.

    Fellow firefighter trainees pulled Begg -- on the job just eight days -- and Mickel from a flaming back bedroom of the vacant concrete-block house, but efforts to save them failed. A preliminary autopsy report showed that the men died of smoke inhalation and burns.

    Firefighters on the scene said they assume that whatever happened came so quickly that the 11-year veteran and the trainee didn't have time to run or call for help.

    A flashover, in which smoke and gases get so hot that the air burns in an instant, was thought to be a possibility.

    Officials gave few details, but an Osceola County firefighter said Mickel and Begg went in first during the morning exercise, after instructors set a fire in the corner of the back bedroom, using hay and wood pallets as fuel.

    Seventeen firefighters from Osceola and Orlando were taking part in the training, which began about 9 a.m.

    Their mission, as is typical in such exercises, was to find and rescue a mannequin simulating a trapped person.

    The smoke was so heavy in the three-bedroom house that firefighters could not see one another but communicated via radio, said the firefighter.

    It's unclear, firefighters said, why Mickel and Begg failed to push red panic buttons on their radios or otherwise signal that they were in trouble.

    State Fire Marshal's Office investigator Juan Bailey said his agency would confer with other departments and speak with the Medical Examiner's Office before disclosing events that led to the deaths.

    "It's a difficult situation for the fire service," Orlando firefighter Steve Clelland said. "To train firefighters, you have to put them in a fire. No matter how safe you try to make it, there's potential for injury.

    "It's like police officers practicing for a shootout with live rounds."
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    Default LODD IN FLORIDA

    Thanks Capt. for keeping us informed. Right now it just seems that there is not enough information being released to be able to make a rational conclusion.
    GOD BLESS THOSE WHO WENT BEFORE US

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    Thanks Captstanm1 definately better to discuss this on a separate thread.

    The information you posted today is certainly different from the original AP releases. FOOLS website says that the Lt. Was an FDIC HOT instructor, and many of the instructors there are FOOLS. It also says that all of the necessary safety measures were in place.

    Please keep us posted.

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    "It's like police officers practicing for a shootout with live rounds."

    What?

    I really hope that this is a misquote or it is taken out of context. it is not even close to being the same thing. I cannot point a gun at you and fire it safely. There ARE measures that I can take to conduct safe live fire training.

    I am still waiting for facts.

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    Default Surprised at lack of discussion

    Maybe it is me, but i was sure that there would be alot more discussion on this tragic, senseless training death. Personelly i would like to know if NFPA 1403 was used. But aside from that, im kind of wondering how this will affect the baird appeal and how the baird case may affect any charges in this incident.

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    Funkyfire, at this point no one wants to point fingers or unjustly accuse until all facts are in.

    Should it turn out that there were deficiencies in the way the training was run, you can be sure that this will become a very hot topic.

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    Was this trainee eight days out of the academy or just 8 days into the academy? If he was just 8 days into it, doesn't that seem a little premature for a live fire exercise?

    I just read the story on the front page and answered my own questions. He had completed the academy and was 8 days on the job.
    Last edited by cfdeng3; 08-02-2002 at 09:32 AM.

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    In this case I think Ladycapn is correct. While we are all curious, there is nothing more out than what we have read in the paper. At least nothing that we can verify. We are all just watching and waiting to see some more scoop. I will supply it when I get it. Did not get to see the local paper today to see if anything was in there.

    George....both myself and my girlfriend read that statement and thought exactly as you did...WHAT?????????

    In the interim we will just keep this thread going and discuss information as it appears. Anyone having access to information (verified)....please share it with ud.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    Default HUH? Training with real bullets?

    Ever hear of a firing range? Cops use real bullets in training all the time - that's how they qualify to carry a gun.

    Sure firefighters practice with real fire, and...
    Pilots practice on real airplanes...
    Med Students practice on real sick/injured people...
    Chefs practice on real hungry people...

    At some point - in any job or activity - you have to step out from the theory and hypothetical and into the reality. Just be sure you step carefully.
    www.cafepress.com/firerev

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    Default Re: HUH? Training with real bullets?

    Originally posted by DFDRev
    Ever hear of a firing range? Cops use real bullets in training all the time - that's how they qualify to carry a gun.

    Sure firefighters practice with real fire, and...
    Pilots practice on real airplanes...
    Med Students practice on real sick/injured people...
    Chefs practice on real hungry people...

    At some point - in any job or activity - you have to step out from the theory and hypothetical and into the reality. Just be sure you step carefully.
    Why can't people here read? Read the quote which generated the discussion. I am a law enforcement officer for over 18 years. i have qualified at least twice a year for those 18 years...with real bullets. However, unless I am not getting the benefit of the full training experience, I have never practiced a tactical situation (shootout) with real bullets.

    If you are going to go up therre on that high horse, you really ought to take some facts with you.

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    There hasn't been enough information released yet to make an informed guess on the situation.

    As for Cops practicing with live ammunition in tactical situations, it happens. This is one of the results:
    http://www.riag.state.ri.us/press/ Scroll down and select the one from 04-24-02...sorry couldn't get a direct link to work.

    Which ain't that much difference from the events up in Lairdsville.

    There are safe ways to practice.

    And there's reckless things to do.

    And there's negligent things to overlook.
    Last edited by Dalmatian90; 08-02-2002 at 05:49 PM.

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    Throwing a question out to give me a better understanding
    of training in a non fire academy smoke house structure.
    Is the contents left in place such as furniture , shelving,
    are interior doors removed and are there any building
    alterations done to windows and roofs??

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    Does anyone know if these two guys gave any sort of signal that they were in trouble? Or did they (safety/IC) just do a role call and discovered them missing. Which one? I have seen both reported in the media. If they didn't do a "May Day" call or press their EMERGENCY button on their radios then I would assume that whatever happened, happened FAST. Flashed on-em. I am looking forward to following this one a bit.

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    I watched the interview (linked on the FH main page) with an LT that was on another team in this burn. I found it interesting that they were advancing into a concrete block structure with one window with high heat and zero visibility. I know these guys were pros but do you need to do that on a training burn?
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    Correct me if I'm having brain fade here.

    A concrete structure...with NO interior furnishings? Just hay bales and pallets? So, what flashed over? There needs to be some wall covering, furniture or SOMETHING that was brought up to flash temperatures. I await details, indeed!

    Remember Cranesville, New York? We never did hear the outcome of WHY 5 firefighters were injured in an explosion at a training exercise. I hope Osceola County is forthcoming with the information....so we can learn something from this tragedy.

    Stan...if you hear something locally, of course, let us all know.

    I'll see what I can dig up when I get back to work Sunday night.
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    The state fire marshal's office has not yet come up with an official cause of the accident.
    I read the information in the article on the FH.Com home page and this is the statement that really jumped out at me. Only real concrete statement that I can see there. I know the hfd66truck has indicated some folks posting on the "fools page" that say they were involved are denying any innapropriate activities...hmmmmm....no one has said there were yet (officially) to my knowledge. There statements kinda make you wonder don't they.

    And for those of you that are on the "real bullets" kick, we need to just forget that. George just pointed out how ridiculous statement it was and he was correct. I am sure he did not intend to spark a debate on target ranges in a forum that was created to discuss a firefighter fatality.

    As others have said, I hope the information is made public so that all others can learn from it.

    NJFFS_A16....I am with you on this... What the heck is there to flash...a rollover?....possibly..But if there was nothing in the building then how could there be a flash unless there was not adequate ventilation and the gasses created by the fire ignited in a fireball.

    And to answer the question by Kevin37truck... In some cases there may be some furniture, it just depends on the structure and what people leave in it. In a lot of cases, scavengers get to it and remove mantles, doors, windows, shelving and sometimes even hardwood floors. So if it has been vacant for a long time then it may require "fixing up" to even use. To be safe, fire departments using these buildings should not alter the windows and doors except to make sure they all function and provisions for proper ventilation should be paramount.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The information that I just read said that the injuries to the two were consistent with flashover. If flashover occurred in this situation and straw and pallets were the fire's only fuel; are there still any questions about how "little" fires set in barrels using straw and pallets doesn't simulate the real thing?
    George: please correct me if I'm off-base; there is already discussion that there were no furnishings in this room, so how could flashover cause articles to hit their ignition temperatures if the room was empty? There was super-heated gases in the room; would they not ignite? I have always trained my guys that smoke is not smoke; it's gas.
    The full report should come very quickly. So I wouldn't rush to judgment.
    Oh, and let's put the guns away and keep this discussion spirited, but friendly. We are of the same family.
    IMACOJ for life.

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    Chief Reason....I concur.

    I also have always contended that smoke is not smoke, rather a product of incomplete combustion which contained dangerous gasses that are ignitable. That should be apparent to all after seeing the many many videos and pictures of "smoke" igniting as it exits a window of roof top opening.

    And you are once again correct....When done correctly under proper conditions, pallets and straw will definitely simulater real conditions. What is most absent there is the "smoke" that would be produced by all the plastic and other hydrocarbon based products in a "real fire."
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    Angry Not a fire professional, so I guess it is ok to speak

    Just to answer a couple of questions I have seen posted here and on the condolences board. I do this with the utmost respect and loyalty to the Osceola County Fire Rescue Department and our two fallen children, John and Dallas.

    1.) I am Joe Public, but I care about OCFR. I was in attendance of a county budget workshop with Public Safety Director, Tad Stone, Chief Donald Adams and Division Chief Kevin Yelvington when the accident occured. Public Safety Director Tad Stone gave the initial information of the lead team, John & Dallas being seperated and the ceiling coming down on them. It is and was not a fabrication of the press.

    2.) The Bible College that is being used for training has been abandoned for more years than I can remember. I believe after more than 6 years of abandonment, there could not possibly be any furnishings, in the structure. To my knowledge, the bales of hay and the pallets were the only burn material with the exception of the structure itself.

    3.) While I have seen many training on this property with these facilities, this is thank God the only accident. OCFR previously used another facility called Good Sams for many years as a training facility.

    4.) Until more people, taxpayers stand up and support fire and rescue services with dollars, interest and loyalty, there will never be enough money to build proper facilities for training. Oh my God, we were waiting 20 minutes for a rescue unit not that long ago.

    5.) I take some of the responsibility for this accident and so should every taxpayer in Osceola County.

    If you have any specific questions that I may be able to answer, feel free to ask or email me at: webmaster@insidepoinciana.org

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    Default I forgot to answer two more questions

    1.) There was no indication from John or Dallas of any problem. We can assume there was no time, consistent with flashover theory.

    2.) Injuries were consistent with flashover. Apparatus condition was also consistent with flashover.

    3.) Total rumor and speculation, they said they would be doing a big burn today. 07/30/02
    Last edited by lilsisterosceol; 08-03-2002 at 02:37 PM.

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    First, a word of caution about about the burn barrel in a structure. It can lite up, and it has happened to a Brother who is an Inst.
    From what I understand Lt. Mickel was a HOT Inst. so for what it's worth, understand that no matter how good you are, the reality of it can happen to the Best of us anytime whether it is in Training or at an Incident.
    Think about what smoke is?

    I wasn't there so there is no need for me to comment anymore other then to say.

    GOD Bless ya Brother's may you rest in peace.

    FTM, PTB, RFB

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    Captstanm1 & Chief Reason to jump in on your comments on
    smoke. I feel that smoke began being called gas for the
    very reason you stated, hydrocarbon based products . Unburned fuel
    of plastic, foam, vinyl floating around in heated smoke
    can properly be called gas, instead of natural smoke from wood,
    cotton and hay which burn cleaner and more completly than
    petroleum based products. In doing a little critque from
    the media information ( usually half accurate) that some
    of the guys quoted we have a block building, no furnishings,
    one window with burning wood and hay. From what I read 2 guys
    were in searching and then the engine moved in with line.
    Now these are all IF'S .IF the window was closed and the entrance
    door, after a while you would have a oxygen starved fire,
    When the door was opened for line advancement you could
    have a small backdraft rather than a flashover. Just kicking
    a thought out to you guys. I personaly never liked the idea
    of closing the entrance door while searching unless warranted
    thier is to many variables.

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    Where is Paul Grimwood when you need him?

    There is a similar post regarding this exact issue...smoke.....and fire behavior.

    check out Fire tactics

    There is alot of information on flashover, by products, and fire behavior.

    To comment on Capstans comment.......sometimes you can do everything right and things still go wrong. I will wait and see with the rest of you.

    Dave

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    Dave...That is a valid point. With so many unknowns, you certainly can be prepared, plan, be safe, follow guidelines....an so on...and disaster will strike.

    Thanks to the lady from Osceola who has shared this information with us. I wonder what prompted her to come to us and pass on this information. And....she has confirmed that they did get seperated.(at least confirmed where the initial reports of seperation came from...)


    (oops....edited this after I realized I made a gender mistake)
    Last edited by captstanm1; 08-03-2002 at 05:40 PM.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    Default Not confirmation

    Coming here today was my way of saying farwell to Lt. John Mickel. He was buried today, about the same time of my post.

    I am not confirming they were separated, I am only confirming who and where the initial report came from.

    Thank you for turning me onto Grimwood.

    By the way I am not of the male persuasion.

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