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  1. #1
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    Default ICMA Retir. Who Else Hates It?

    I currently am involved in ICMA. I have recently stopped all money from going into this account and awaiting the IAFF retirement to begin. 1. I can not see giving my money to an organization that uses that money to help combat firefighter safety with the "Do more for Less" mentality. If you are involved in your Local, you probably know what I am talking about. 2. I have been losing money like crazy. But what does ICMA care, they are still getting their money no matter what.


    This is a subject that I have not really seen on here. I want to know if the feeling is just a local thing or if it is an all around the country problem.
    IAFF Local 2270


  2. #2
    Forum Member dfd3dfd3's Avatar
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    No, Your disgust of ICMA isnt a local thing. I cant stand ICAM either. Any plan that the model they underperform and I dont like the fact that ICMA is the only place u can contribute to a 457. I guess the IAFF will be an option hopefully, I haven tlooked into it completely. I dont see too many people staying with ICMA if we are able to switch over to an IAFF run fund system.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber UTFFEMT's Avatar
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    We have ICMA and yes it sucks, but we do not have many other options for us here in Utah. Been losing big $$$$$$ lately. Hopefully the worm will turn for the better pretty soon.

    Front line since 1983 and still going strong

  4. #4
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default For you IAFF members

    www.iaff-fc.com...Now IAFF members have an option...

  5. #5
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    Thank you MIKEYLIKES it. I checked it out and it sounds like it is going to be a good deal. I did not know about that website until you said something about it. Thanks again and be safe.
    IAFF Local 2270

  6. #6
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    In regards to #2 have you looked at the market lately? Everything is down big time. Do you think Invesco will provide a miracle? Our dept. used to have ICMA and then went with Aetna (now ING). Talk about bad!!!

    As for #1, you'll have to enlighten me a little more>

    Terry
    Local 2800

  7. #7
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    The ICMA, (International City/County Managers Association is against NFPA 1710. If you know about 1710, then you know that 1710 is a good thing. More people on engines and trucks, ambulances etc. equals easier, safer, and more efficient work that can be done.

    I do not feel comfortable contributing money to an organization that wants to jepordize firefighter safety because of having to spend more money. Do you???? ICMA has the "MORE FOR LESS" mentality. Do more for less, meaning more work with less people. Less people on a fire scene equals deadly consequences, not only for firefighters but also for victims involved. You know that by having more people on a fire scene is a lot better than just a handful.

    I hope that I have explained myself well enough, if not, check out these webpages and they will explain it more in depth.

    http://www.iaff2067.org/Files/1710Q&A.pdf
    http://www.iaff.org/across/news/arch...70301nfpa.html
    http://www.firehouse.com/ems/ludwig/2001/july01.html

    Thank you for your comments and be safe.
    IAFF Local 2270

  8. #8
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    I believe 1710 passed last July without the help of the County Managers Assoc. ICMA RC Corporation is a separate not for profit entity so your money does not support the County Managers Assoc. It's also sponsered by the Ford Foundation but you're not going to stop buying Fords are you?

    Terry
    L2800

  9. #9
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    Smile

    "I believe 1710 passed last July without the help of the County Managers Assoc. ICMA RC Corporation is a separate not for profit entity so your money does not support the County Managers Assoc. It's also sponsered by the Ford Foundation but you're not going to stop buying Fords are you?" from TOYTRUCK

    Nahhh, I wouldn't drive a FORD anyway.

    Did you know that ICMA RC PAYS ICMA royalties every year for the use of the name. So for you to sit there and say that the 2 are not related is crazy. Come on man. Wake up and smell the dollar bills, (the ones that ICMA RC is taking from all of us and giving to ICMA).

    Do you like supporting them?????? I know I don't! My money and safety is more valuable to me than that.

    Be safe.
    Last edited by kfd26710; 08-17-2002 at 10:01 PM.
    IAFF Local 2270

  10. #10
    Rabble rouser Kobersteen's Avatar
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    Not to revive a dead topic, but this is important if you are still giving you money to ICMA!

    GIRARD MILLER ON PUBLIC BENEFITS

    DROP Reform

    Set the Stage for Downshifting

    As state college coaches stir up citizen envy with their multimillion-dollar contracts, so too do public employees who draw richer pension benefits than the taxpayers who pay for them. Add to that the DROP option - a Deferred Retirement Option Plan - and you may really be tempting citizen unrest.

    In this volatile era in pension and health benefits for retirees in the private sector, the time is right for public managers to take a second look at their DROP plans and see if they are a necessary tool for managing a workforce or just a union-negotiated gimmick that is alienating the public. San Diego is taking that second look. Mayor Jerry Sanders and City Attorney Michael Aguirre want to eliminate the city's DROP program as too expensive.

    First appearing in the 1980s, DROPs were developed to retain scarce, skilled professionals such as teachers and police officers. Many pension plans capped benefits so that retirement-eligible employees had no financial incentive to keep working. But that created its own set of problems. To stop a talent drain, pension systems came up with DROP options that allow employees to extend their working years for a fixed period of time. Their pension payments are postponed until they finish the DROP period, and a separate individual DROP account is credited with employer contributions and interest - for example, 8 percent of pay with 6 percent interest. If done right, these arrangements can be actuarially neutral and financially prudent. But when they are poorly designed, they can lead to charges that they are just another giveaway to retired pubic employees who are already considered overcompensated by some.

    Some DROP plans, for instance, may be Band-Aids on a basic plan that is too generous in permitting young employees to receive full benefits without a way to "downshift" - that is, to work for less pay with fewer hours or with less responsibility. If there is an opportunity for abuse or "gaming," the problem should be fixed with a design change, even if that requires a return to the collective-bargaining table. For example, if the DROP option is enriching employees who would otherwise be inclined to keep working, save for a pension plan's "25 [years of service] and out" provisions, then it's probably time for a design change.

    DROP plans may be an imperfect answer for retaining skilled employees - or just an alternative for baby boomers who haven't saved enough money to be able to afford to retire. Preferably, they could lead to a new generation of hybrid plans or supplemental defined-contribution plans. This approach could enable valued public employees to "downshift" without costing taxpayers more than the costs of training a replacement worker.

    Public managers would, of course, prefer to use such a tool selectively, to keep their best talent while letting deadwood employees head out to pasture. That will likely invite discrimination lawsuits, so the plan design work will require some creativity and sensitivity. For example a plan might start by allowing the employer to offer part-time employment with full-time medical benefits. At the same time, it could allow the "retiree" to draw partial pension payments for past service while the plan makes a contribution to a deferred-compensation account in lieu of additional service credits. Such a plan could be offered to selected employees who meet certain criteria. These could start with employees who have earned above-average performance evaluations for the past five years but also include only those for whom there would be a cost for recruiting and training a replacement.

    Now is a good time to get ahead of the curve and start working on ways to provide financial flexibility to productive older workers. "Downshifting" will become a big word in the years to come, and it could even save your taxpayers money if it's done right.


    Girard Miller, a commentator on public finance issues, former president of the Janus Mutual Funds, past CEO of ICMA Retirement Corp and original author of Investing Public Funds, can be reached at Girardinmalibu@charter.net.
    The following chronicles a battle in trying to give Local 2068 members a CHOICE not to fund those who work against us!

    First, ICMA sent a letter to each firehouse because they had heard Local 2068 educating the membership about how dangerous they are.

    That letter can be found here: http://www.fairfaxfirefighters.org/d...ICMAletter.pdf

    In reply to the above letter from ICMA, I wrote the membership the following letter:

    October 20, 2005

    Dear Members of the Fire & Rescue Department,

    This week, the ICMA-Retirement Corporation has mass mailed work locations with a letter responding to questions that were posed to them by members. To address their misrepresentations, I include these points:

    Fact: There is a definitive, interdependent relationship between ICMA and ICMA-RC. Saying this is not the case would be the same as a fire station saying that they are not part of the Fairfax County Fire & Rescue Department.

    The minutes of the ICMA Executive Board Meeting of July 24-27, 2003 state: "ICMA-RC provided an update on the Retirement Corporation. (ICMA) President Merriss reviewed the ICMA-RC board's Nominating Committee recommendation for appointments. President Merriss had participated on the Nominating Committee on behalf of the ICMA board." (Page 8)

    The minutes state that the ICMA board then entertained and passed motions to appoint two persons to four-year terms of the ICMA-RC Board of Directors, and the ICMA Board entertained and passed a motion to appoint a Mr. Norm King to a two-year term as the chair of the ICMA Retirement Corporation Board of Directors.

    Further, the minutes state that the ICMA Board moved to ratify the reappointment of Regina Williams for a second four-year term on the Vantage Trust Company Board (formerly the ICMA Retirement Trust), expiring on June 30, 2006. (ICMA Executive Board Minutes-July 24-27, 2003 - Page 9)

    Fact: Proceeds generated from ICMA-RC deferred compensation accounts are used directly or indirectly to oppose firefighter interests. Royalties, rent, and sponsorship money is paid by ICMA-RC to ICMA, as noted in the ICMA FY 2005-2007 Budget and Financial Plan.

    Fact: Simply because the U.S. Conference of Mayors and the National Association of Counties, who opposed NFPA 1710, endorse Nationwide Retirement does not indicate that Nationwide Retirement endorses their views. Saying that they do is like saying that because Osama bin-Laden eats Twinkies, then Hostess endorses terrorism. It just doesn't make good solid sense.

    Facts: The Nationwide Retirement option for our deferred compensation dollars has non-commissioned local representatives and regional Certified Financial Planners.

    The newest option has an excellent line up of funds from well respected fund families and its target date/lifecycle funds have a proven track record. This fund line up underwent the full review by the County's Deferred Compensation committee and the professional consultant.

    While it is important to invest your money during your career it is also important to make good decisions on distribution. The Nationwide Retirement option offers assistance with building a comprehensive retirement plan and making solid distribution decisions at retirement, at no cost for these services.

    The newest option has a proven track record across the country of being dedicated to financial education, responsive to participant needs, and is determined to provide the best service possible to IAFF members and all public employees.

    As with everything, members do have a choice. You are encouraged to know the facts before making your decision.

    Sincerely,

    Joel Kobersteen
    Communications Director
    After that letter, I was asked my a brother Local 2068 member to further back up my claims of ICMAs actions against us.

    The following was all-station faxed and e-mailed:

    ICMA DOES NOT REPRESENT YOUR BEST INTERESTS AS A CAREER FIRE FIGHTER AND EMS PROFESSIONAL


    A member has contacted me asking that the Local provide documentation backing up the claim that the International City/County Management Association (ICMA) has utilized our money to lobby against NFPA 1710 Safe Staffing. In my previous letter dated October 20, which I also sent out again last week, I detailed how preposterous the claim that ICMA-RC (the provider of deferred compensation) is not at all associated with ICMA (the parent company and lobbyist against legislation that the IAFF fights for in trying to make ours a safer and more productive career).

    The attached article from the International Code Council, Inc (ICC) Newsletter dated June 2001, after NFPA 1710 was passed, has two articles beginning on page five. One article is entitled ‘IAFF Members Pass Historic NFPA Standard’ by George Burke, Assistant to the IAFF General President for Communications. The other, is entitled ‘1710 Receives Affirmative Vote; ICMA to Appeal’ by Michael Lawson, director for the ICMA Center for Performance Measurement.

    The second document is the minutes from the March 30, 2001 meeting of the Metro Denver Fire Chiefs. On page two, Dave Nuss from NFPA provides an update to the group regarding NFPA 1710. According to the minutes, he mentions that “ICMA has established a national strategy of defeating these standards”.

    Also of note is an online article by Gary Ludwig on Firehouse.com entitled ‘How NFPA 1710 and 1720 Affect Fire Service EMS’ (http://www.firehouse.com/ems/ludwig/2001/july01.htm). In this article he writes, “Opposition to the standards is found mainly in municipal government groups and associations like the International City/County Management Association (ICMA), which see increased costs because of the standards.”

    It is my hope that the documentation you have been provided will show without a doubt that ICMA has indeed worked against us in regards to NFPA 1710.

    As I stated before, Nationwide is not out of the running. Any deferred compensation representative or county contact that states this is the case may not be fully informed.

    If you should have further questions please do not hesitate to contact me at JKobersteen@fairfaxfirefighter s.org.
    The ICC minutes can be found here: http://www.fairfaxfirefighters.org/d...MA/0106icc.pdf

    The minutes from the March 30, 2001 meeting of the Metro Denver Fire Chiefs can be found here: http://www.fairfaxfirefighters.org/d...001Minutes.pdf

    Don't fund those who actively work against us!
    Member IACOJ - Building crust and full of lust...

    "It's okay to to scared, just don't be chicken." - Clark

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber fyrmnk's Avatar
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    We're lucky in the sense that we have 3 options for deffered compensation: ICMA, Nationwide, and ING.

    We started a push several years ago to get all members contributing to ICMA to stop and transfer their funds over to one of the others, with the biggest push to Nationwide for their support to firefighters.

    Most if not all of our members did that, including myself. I haven't missed them one bit.

    I currently contribute to both Nationwide and ING and have been very happy with both.
    FTM-PTB-RFB
    IACOJ

  12. #12
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT View Post
    www.iaff-fc.com...Now IAFF members have an option...
    We got the option to use the IAFF 457 funds vs ICMA 457 funds a couple of years ago. The sad part of the deal is that the ICMA funds have generally been producing better returns.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  13. #13
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    Had Hartford, switched to ICMA, back to Hartford and now looking at the new IAFF. ICMA stinks.

  14. #14
    Rabble rouser Kobersteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    We got the option to use the IAFF 457 funds vs ICMA 457 funds a couple of years ago. The sad part of the deal is that the ICMA funds have generally been producing better returns.
    Sometimes the right thing to do is not the easiest or most profitable thing to do.
    Member IACOJ - Building crust and full of lust...

    "It's okay to to scared, just don't be chicken." - Clark

  15. #15
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    Makes me glad we've got our independent fire/police pension where I work. We've go the option of a 457 (I don't recall who it's through, but it's not ICMA, but an investment company like ING, Prudential, something like that) to supplement, but few go that route.

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