1. #1
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    Default and you wonder why...

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/2002/8/9_Pind.html

    and you wonder why fire chiefs/politicians/etc. are so cautious when it comes to POV's and emergency warning equipment.
    Last edited by HFDEXP777; 08-10-2002 at 06:44 PM.

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    Exclamation

    A little embellishment of the facts, hey junior.

    This is a horible accident that tarnishes volunteer firefighters. A definate leadership issue that needs to be addressed in most departments I am sure.

    Be Safe, Drew
    **************************
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    HFDEXP777, how would you like to be in this poor persons place and have a nitwit like you attempt to make this case seem so much more worse then it already is. Your attempt at humor has failed. For your sake I'd think twice before posting junk like that.

    *Mark

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    don't make the BMI classify you as a pup!!
    I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
    "Chet, get an inch and a half on that!"

    "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

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    HFDEXP777

    Seems to me only a few days ago we (forum members) had a discussion with you regarding your phrasing of things. I do, as I am sure the others who have previously posted, understand the point that you are trying to make, however the way you are trying to make it is not appropriate.

    You didn't like the response you got in the previously mentioned thread. If you don't want to get slammed for opening your mouth I suggest that you think about who 'might' be reading these posts, and exactly how they will take what you say. It is not about being PC, I am probably one of the least PC people on these forums. It is about having respect for the men and women who do this job, and for the victims of tragic events such as these.

    There is no place for humour (I can only guess that is what you were attempting) in events such as these.

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    it wasnt meant as humor at all, i was pointing out that people like this with no regard for anything other than making it to the station first give us a terrible name, as drewbo stated. i cant believe i am being slammed in here again. unbelieveable.

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    Angry Not again...

    Calm down probie,

    Take a deep breath, then attempt to try to comprehend what others are telling you. Yes I agree that this is an issue to address. But the comical sence you took; "...volunteer firefighters in POVs running 1,000 lights/sirens and doing 100 miles an hour to the station ..." just was not the best way to address it.

    When people like Mark, Wayne, and Tempt suggest you made a mistake, open up your mind, take a deep breath and learn from it. Instead you write to defend yourself. Quick Lesson: It takes a man to face up to his mistakes. A responce such as; "Sorry, did not realize I came off that way" or "My bad, I should not have embellished the story to make a point" would have worked more in your favor.

    An innocent person died here, and one of our own has to live with his actions for the rest of his life. There is a Chief and a President out there who is right now reveiwing their Department's policies on responce. And there is a community in shock. It is not to late to delete your last post, it is late at night and not too many people have read it. Good luck.

    Be Safe All. Drew
    Last edited by Drewbo; 08-10-2002 at 02:08 AM.
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    Originally posted by HFDEXP777
    it wasnt meant as humor at all
    If it wasn't meant as humor then you need to attatch facts to your stories and/or posts. Facts are truthful, honest information. That crap you posted about volunteers running 1,000 lights and running 100 miles per hour just to make it to the station. That is not fact, just plain and simple bull! You know that as well as the rest of us here. You're quickly approaching the PUP status. You best sit back, open your ears (or eyes in this case) and learn from some that have been around longer then you. It is in your best interest, I promise you. As Drewbo says, there is a Chief and a President re-evaluating thier SOP's & SOG's right now. Unless you can come up with a soloution to this problem and provide everyone with positive comments and control your attitude then please refrain from comments that provide no use to anyone except yourself.

    Thank you,
    *Mark

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    it wasnt meant as humor at all, i was pointing out that people like this with no regard for anything other than making it to the station first give us a terrible name

    Everyone is right on here. Lets make sure you stick to the facts when posting on something of this nature.

    - The responder was not enroute to the station, but to a dock where the Fire Department's boat was for a water rescue call.

    - The responder was not going 100 MPH.

    - And he probably didn't have 1,000 lights.

    And, without knowing the individual and the results of the investigation, calling it 'people like this' is flat out slander.

    Thanks
    WebTeam

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    Exclamation OH MY GOD!!

    Wow. I never thought to see the webteam come out and agree with us!!

    Thank you for taking the time to post.
    I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
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    This is a senseless tragedy and my heart goes out to families on both sides of the equation. However this reinforces my argument against lights. My volunteer station has strict rules regarding the use of lights (no siren) in POV's. Lt. or above only, and all traffic laws and due caution are to be used. Also NO POV's to the fireground in my specific district. If you don't come on a fire truck you don't come at all. Last week while I was driving home from my side job in CT. I was cutting through a small town outside Norwich. I see one car with lights, and another and another doing well over the speed limit, overtaking cars recklessly and 1 guy was even on the phone!!! This is a recipe for disaster. I am against it and I make no bones about it. Now I realize that in many places it is quicker to go to the scene then the station then to the scene, however let's use our heads!!!
    There is no need to put our lives and the lives of innocent civilians as well as the reputation of this great profession at risk to save a minute or two.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

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    Thumbs down

    HFDEXP777,
    Your best off editing your post and saying sorry and try saveing your last ioda of credibilty. My freind welcome to China! This aint an attack on you just some people are worried about your posts.
    Last edited by dfdex1; 08-16-2002 at 10:28 PM.

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    Puffy, I too am against lights and sirens being operated in a personal vehicle. The State of Utah doesn't allow them, therefore no one here runs them. If it were legal you can bet that I would not apply any warning device to my vehicles. People run wrecklessly enough as it is, even in a marked, FD sanctioned emergency vehicle. There are people in the volunteer fire department in which I belong and the career department I work for too, who can't drive down the road in a non-emergent fashion and keep it under the speed limit and keep me safe. I have made it a point to NOT ride in the same vehicle as these people when lights and sirens have been activated. Of course I don't have much of a choice when I'm on the job, but they are realatively better drivers, but not because of the fact they are paid, just that they do it nearly everyday, two dozen times a tour. I do fear for my life, but more for those poor, unsuspecting citizens who are oblivious to emergency vehicles.


    *Mark
    Last edited by mark440; 08-10-2002 at 01:21 PM.

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    We need to remember people don't see BIG RED FIRE TRUCK's with lights and siren and they won't see us. Drive like your life (and someone else's life) are not put in danger, we can not help anyone if we are sitting beside the road wishing the accident had not happend.

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    I'm just stunned that private vehicles can even have lights and sirens fitted...

    As far as I'm concerned, if it isn't an emergency vehicle, then it shouldn't be fitted with anything.
    Luke

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    Default Wrong Issue: Lights & Sirens on POV; Right Issue: Safe Driving

    Folks,
    Some of us are talking about the wrong issue: whether personal vehicles should have warning lights & sirens. The correct issue is safe driving, especially under emergency conditions. Here's where I'm coming from: I've spent almost 20 years in fire/EMS in Ohio which places volunteers POV's in exactly the same legal category as fire apparatus and ambulances. I've also taught the National Safety Council's Coaching the Emergency Vehicle Operator course many times.

    Here's some things I'd like folks to think about:
    • When do most accidents with emergency vehicles occur? It's not when running hot - it's backing. Slow speed crashes, e.g. sideswipe in tight maneouvering areas is #2.
    • If a person can drive a large vehicle: ladder, pumper, ambulance with red light & siren, why wouldn't we expect them to be able to drive a smaller, more maneouverable, and easier to stop personal vehicle red light & siren?
    • What circumstances make red light & siren responses significant time savers? Do you have them in your service area? In my semi rural area, emergent response can often save 3-4 minutes on scene response and 10 on some hospital transports.
    The issue is training and supervision - both of which can be accomplished in any department. You train all new members on emergency driving, you check them off on each vehicle, and you ride herd on the ones who don't drive well.

    I won't comment on the specifics of this crash. Let's wait for the fire dept and police investigations to be released. It's clearly a tragedy. But who's actions (and it likely was both driver's) contributed and how much isn't known yet.
    Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

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    Young man, your battle ship mouth will sink your row boat *** one of these days.
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    well, he reworded his original post. He was well intentioned, but I guess it didn't come across that way to many of you.

    Here's something to think about (don't know if it was mentioned here before cuz I didn't read the thread too carefully):

    Was the light really a factor in his speeding or was it just the adrenaline rush of having a call and getting to "play firefighter", as my mom used to call it?
    IACOJ Agitator
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    Was the light really a factor in his speeding or was it just the adrenaline rush of having a call and getting to "play firefighter", as my mom used to call it?
    Here's a good question(s) to ask in general regarding response:

    The police reported the vehicle going 20MPH over the speed limit. Do any of your department's drivers go 20MPH over the speed limit in their apparatus going to calls? What is your jurisdiction's rules on speed over the posted limit? Do you go the same speed for all emergency responses? Do you go faster for a reported unconscious person, a working code? A water rescue with people in the river? Alarm bells at the place you run every day? Smoke in an apartment building where you are sixth due company?

    Also, since no charges have been filed in this instance as yet and the investigation continues, please have some respect for the individual here. Using a term to speak in general of the subject is fine (as most of the posts here are discussing), but singling out the driver here right now with a comment like he was 'playing firefighter' is really not needed before the investigation is complete.

    Although obviously the forums IOCOOJOACAI investigation is obviously well underway. (Sorry, we dont do acronyms at 3am)

    Thanks
    WebTeam

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    Good point webteam, we all push the limit from time to time. If anyone says that they have never gone over the speed limit for a report of people trapped or (God forbid) Firefighter down or missing, is either lying or much more holy person then the rest of us.

    This is now in the hands of the police and accident investigators, let them complete their job before we start to throw stones at this brother. I'm sure he is beating himself up more then anyone of us or the law can do.

    And to the brother who is in this unfortunite situation, good luck.
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    The WEBTEAM has posted some interesting thoughts and observations as has brother ADZE.... I did not read HFD's original post so i can not comment on it. I can just echo the thoughts of some folks (and this is NOT an attack...just advice). Before posting put some thought in what you write and then read it to see if the message you are looking for is the one that is being sent. If so...push send....if not...revise.. I think that HFD in this case was trying to make a point and from what I read here he just "inflated" the information a bit to drive it home...

    Now...as far as the light issue goes.... I used to have one (no siren though...not allowed in Va.)and I got into trouble several times. My outlook now is that when you turn on that vehicle and flip the switch on that light it does give you a sense of invulnerability as well as a feeling of being "above the law." If you check....in most states the "extras" you are allowed are only as a courtesy and give you no exemptions from the law regarding to driving when in your POV. Exemptions are only granted for official vehicles and in most cases the term "with due regard for the safety of others" is in there somewhere.

    My take on the light issue...I now feel (as I get older and wiser) that they are a "magnet for trouble" and eventually will cause you some sort of trouble.
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    I think this 22 year old kid should be charged to the max! People, driving a ford, toyota, or chevy with a red light blinking on your dash board does not give you the right to speed, or pass others. It does not give you the right to be a total moron! I for one would like to see all the red lights and sirens removed from personal vehicles. Remember folks, if you drive your own car like an A&* what are you going to do behind a Pump or ladder?
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

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    Webteam, I wasn't trying to single out the driver but more like trying to make a question out of all the accidents that happen that are similar to this one. If you can screw up the IACOJ's name at 3am, then I'm allowed not to have my question phrased properly at 2:30am.

    Let's give it another shot:

    In cases like this one (and from people you know), what do you think factored in more to the speeding? Do you think it was having a light or getting to go "play firefighter"?

    I know lots of volunteer firefighters who speed with or without lights to get to calls. People tend to start blaming the lights volunteers have on their cars, but I think "having a call" plays a bigger part in their speeding.
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    HFD

    Much better thank you.

    I had an interesting thing happen yesterday, and it reminded me of what happens to people when they see lights *if they noticed them at all * A good portion of them turn stupid.

    Don't get me wrong here, I am not trying to defend anyone, just point out that there are also alot of factors that Hutchins (FF driving POV) had no control over.

    An officer at the scene said Hutchins claimed to have his siren and warning light on at the time of the accident, Hawkins said. Witnesses told police several vehicles had pulled over to allow Hutchins' truck to pass.

    "One of the witnesses said he was 'hauling a**,'" Hawkins said. "(Hutchins) told the officer at the scene he was going 20 miles over the speed limit."
    IF vehicles were moving over to allow him to pass, that means they could either see him, hear him or both. This 19 yr old didn't, she made a left hand turn (probably at a substantially reduced speed since she was pulling into her driveway) right in front of him. Which means she didn't see or hear him, or she thought she could beat him.

    How many times has that happened to any firefighter? I am not trying to defend his actions. I wont comment on his wife being in the vehicle with him, as the article doesn't mention whether she was also a member of the same dept. I just wanted to remind everyone that this could happen to anyone of us anyday. Whether you are driving a POV or dept vehicle that 19 yr old who just turned left in front of you is dead.

  25. #25
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    bfd1071- Are you not reading any of these posts???????

    Do you know the exact circumstances of this accident. Has the investigation been completed and you know more than we do???

    In some states, POV's are considered emergency vehicles, if they are properly equipped, and they have the same rights/privleges as a Fire Truck, Ambulance, or Police Car.

    I'm not saying this gives someone the right to drive like a moron (as you stated), because like someone else said, you do have to drive with due regard to safety.

    All I'm saying (just like others did) is don't jump to conclusions, unless you know the final result of the investigation. And if you do, please post it here so the rest of us can see it to, as we are all curious.

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