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  1. #1
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    Default Veteran's Preference Points

    Our department has been giving veteran's preference points to military veteran's and lately we've had so many veterans apply that we're ending up with the top of the list (thus the only ones getting hired) nothing but veterans. The city adds 10% to their score which is enough to move them from the bottom of the list to the top. Do other department's do this and if so, do you think it's a good idea? Are you ending up with the same result as us?


  2. #2
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    If you like it or not the points a vet gets is law. I've found that vets are better suited for this work than many. They can take an order, and will not argue about a decision the brass makes. They may not like what comes down but won't cause as much termoil.
    Also unlike a lot of young guys getting on the job, vets have seen some of the world and they know that life isn't just handed to them.
    They deserve the extra points, are more mature, and are just better suited for the para military world of the fireservice.

  3. #3
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    I agree that there are sometimes advantages in hiring military veterans, particularly because they're a little older and more experienced than kids straight out of high school. The veterans we've hired have all turned out okay. However I'm not a big fan of adding points to any group - be it military, females or racial minorites. I'd prefer that the highest scoring applicants be at the top of the list. If the vets make it high enough on the list then we may pick them over the others if we feel their military skills will be a benefit. I hate to be forced by the government into hiring nothing but vets though.

    I'm in charge of recruiting minorities, and although several have tested well, they've been bumped down by military vets. I had an excellent minority candidate last year(who spoke spanish, which we desperately need). If not for the veteran's preference points, he would have scored 1st on the list. Instead he was bumped down to 6th by five vets. We only hired three that year so we never got a chance to consider anyone past 5th on the list. It's frustrating.

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    Well, I guess your minority candidate now knows how it feels to be 100% qualified and still get knocked down the list because someone who scored lower than him earns extra points for being part of a minority group. Welcome to the club.

    As far as I'm concerned, anyone willing to spend part of their life protecting my freedom has every right to protect my home and family.

  5. #5
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    The last hire we had we picked up two people that used veterans prferance. Only one of them still works here and he is on his way out. We passed over 2 more qualified people because of the points. I have no problem with most of the people who use veterans preference, they usualy are hard working good people, but lazy good for nothings find themselves into the military also. I think it's kind of like minority points, sometimes the more qualified people get passed up.

  6. #6
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    I too am against any extra points being given to ANY group. Until recent changes in the law few people got veteran's points and most only got 5 (you only got 10 if you were disabled). The law changed and now every veteran (wartime or not) gets at least 5 points and since the Persian Gulf War started in 1990 and still continues (it officially hasn't ended), all veterans in that time frame get 10 points for "serving during wartime" (you can have stayed stateside and still qualify). That means anyone that served in the military for as little as 2 years from 1990 to present and never did a minute of combat gets 10 points. 10 points out of a 100 is WAY WAY too much. Under the rule of three, we can only pick from the top three candidates. That's never the three that scored highest on the test. Instead it's the veterans that WERE at the bottom of the list but got bumped up. In our department it used to be that everyone became a paramedic, but NONE of the vets we've been forced to hire has done it. They either lacked the ambition or knew they didn't have the brainpower to even try. Some couldn't pass the classes needed as prerequsites. The two that made it into the paramedic program both flunked out. They've been an embarassment to us. Meanwhile the guys and gals that scored highly on our tests, but got passed up by the vets, are giving up on ever getting hired. They don't stand a chance. You just can't outscore the vets by enough to make up for that 10 points. I think we should go back to giving points ONLY to vets that served during combat. Or better yet, let's let EVERYONE compete on an equal playing field!

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    Ladies and gents...If your department is civil service and you are not a veteran, you should be lucky to have the job you have. Like I stated in another thread, Civil service was created for Vet's returning from War. At one time a non vet was not even givin the chance to apply!! Like I stated in the past post....Everyone can become a veteran and earn those extra points. People who protect this great Nation deserve the points regardless. It's the countries way of saying thank you.
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  8. #8
    Forum Member RoryEl's Avatar
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    Vets receive points for service already rendered: providing protection so you can whine about it. It's a way for a grateful nation to say thank you. You want points, pick up a weapon and walk the line! You want a VA loan, walk the line!
    Last edited by RoryEl; 08-21-2002 at 08:19 AM.

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    I am one of those vets who get 5 points on my civil service exams. And you know what, I believe I deserve every damn one of them...while many of my friends were living it up going through life fat, drunk, & stupid, wasting their parents money, I was serving my country. Regardless of whether you were in combat or not, you chose to serve and had the chance of being thrown into that situation at anytime. Now, I'm not for anyone who's at the bottom of the list to be bumped to the front, that's just not fair, but there are many vets who score well who get bumped up a few notches with the veterans preferance. And as someone stated, this is to assist vets who didn't/don't have the same secondary education opportunities as others. We are generally 4 years behind everyone else when it comes to readapting to civilian life and job opportunities.
    You wanna get hired over a vet? Score high on the test within the average 4 years that there is a swarm that will take the test.
    There are municipalities who give 5 points for living in there boundries, and vets in there get 10 points, I don't cry, I just do the best I can and sit on the list like everyone else.

    Mickey_treet, just to set the record straight, I am a Marine Corps veteran, who served just after combat operations ceased in the Gulf, however, came in under the "dates" that you stated, in my county we only get 5 points, regardless the fact that some of us served in some lesser publicized peacekeeping missions and other support operations for "initiatives." I for one am an average scorer of 95-99 on civil service exams, and have scored several 100's, and I have used my points every chance I have gotten. I am also a Paramedic, and finishing my bachelor's and am also an honors student at my college. Since I got hired as a firefighter using my points I know can't use them for promotion. What you describe is an issue with whatever level department handles your civil service, as well as you department/municipality, if you want medics, then stipulate it in the hiring announcement and you'll solve that problem.

  10. #10
    Forum Member RoryEl's Avatar
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    Well said ALSfirefighter. oorrah

  11. #11
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Damned Jarheads. Wait, I can't say that because I was one too.

    Veterans preferance is just that, a preferance. If you have a veteran who is 22 years old and a college graduate who is 22 years old I will take the veteran any day of the week, even without a degree. I know that the veteran has, as a rule, done a lot more growing up in those short four years than most other college kids who did not pay their own way through school, did not skip classes at a whim and got a hell of a lot of money dumped into them and have, now here's a shocker, practical, actual, real world experience and can handle stressful situations better than most other 22 year olds.

    If you don't get points a preference for the position is given to the veteran over someone else for this reason.

    In Massachusetts, the State Police give 2 points on the hiring exam and that's it. I have heard the civil service related promotional exams add 2 points on every exam for the results.

    I'm sure a lot of returning Vietnam veterans sould never have been hired on a department without the veteran's points because of the **** poor and disgraceful mentality that this country had towards them

    And for NSC equating veteran's preference with Affirmative Action there is little comparison because of the previous statement. Overall many veterans are a higher caliber of people because of their experiences. If you have never been in the service then you cannot make the comparison.

    Affirmative Action has been bastardized and now allows for the hiring of UNQUALIFIED applicants over someone who has training and certifications in any particular field simply because of their ethnicity.

    Remember, it is called preference and is not an absolute.

    On a more personal note, I would never have had the intestinal fortitude to accomplish many of the things in my life or to try many things that I have tried had I not been a member of the United States Marine Corps. One learns to push themselves to the extreme and surpass any perceived limit on what an individual is capable of. This is what we want in the young people of this country. Go getters who at least try and don't sit there and say it can't be done.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  12. #12
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    Enough from the jarheads. Of course you like veteran's preference points - you're the preferred group.

    Not every college kid gets their way paid through school. Not every Marine works hard and learns anything. Let's just test everyone and see who comes out on top.

    One Jarhead has earned my respect. He didn't take the preference points. He competed fairly with everyone else and got a score high enough to get the job. He learned something valuable in the Marines - INTEGRITY.

  13. #13
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    I'll trade my measly 5 veteran points to anyone that would want to see the s#@t I got to see in the 18 months I was in the gulf...
    mickey_treet:
    Not every Marine works hard and learns anything.
    Yea, those are "awarded" an "other than honorable' discharge.
    Gald you have enjoyed the freedom others have fought and died for. Freedom of speach isn't free.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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  14. #14
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    OK...let me guess, Mickey is one of these people who took the college route.She didnt have a clue what she wanted in life, Studied a major that was and is today a waste of time. Now She wants to become a firefighter and thinks she should because she is a female and we should bow to our mighty princess, But wait there's more. Along come's a MAle or female who out of high school knew that college was not for them, decided to join the military. During there time in service the country said , pack your bags and head to the gulf, Bosnia, Somlia, and back to the gulf region. They do what this nation has asked for them, they do it with PRIDE!


    When there time is up,they like the paramilitary orginization and join the area fire dept. They take an exam, one by the way that Mickey would not have been able to take after WW2, and in doing so get preference for serving there country. In Mickey's eye's it is wrong. Hey, I said it once and I'll say it again....you want the points mickey, and you want the job bad enough? Your local recrutier is willing to talk to you. You too can get the points/preference. You can become a veteran, I can not become a princess like you!

    your happily employed VETERAN!!!
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  15. #15
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    So what do you have against Marines? Why can't we speak and express the opinions that God and millions of men and women have gauranteed to us as citizens of the United States of America?
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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    Most, if not all Departments give points for a college or university degree. It is my belief that military time is far more beneficial to a career firefighter than a batchelor of basketweaving degree. As I have stated in previous posts, far too much emphasis is placed on degrees. Experience (21 plus years) has shown me that firefighters with degrees come in with an attitude that they are better than those who came before them and in many cases are a detriment to the fire service. Although I don't have military experience myself, I'ld rather team with a military partner than a college boy/girl any and every time.

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    bfd1071:
    OK...let me guess, Mickey is one of these people who took the college route . . .
    Better keep your day job 'cause you're physic powers are lacking. Not everyone that LOVES military preference is a vet and not everyone that is against them is a non-vet. Some of us just have higher standards.

  18. #18
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    I think everyone needs to chill here.

    The way people are describing college students and the way people are describing military people is getting personal.

    Not everyone is suited to be in the military and not everyone is suited for college. There is no reason to build yet another wall between two groups for something this trivial. I think everyone would agree that you can't judge what kind of firefighter he/she will make based did he or she go to college or the military.

    Try and keep the discussion civil. If my statement earlier in this post offended any of the military people out there I surely apologize as it was not my intention to do so.

  19. #19
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    I am a Disabled American Vet who is also a Firefighter because of these points. I used my points to get on, I also know for a fact my military experience made me better suited for the position. When asked to do something, I do it the first time. I tend not to ask “WHY”. Military people tend to not to complain as much either. Nobody likes a whiner. In my experience we are the first to jump up and the last to sit down. They tend to be more mechanically sharp, physically fit and quicker learners. From day 1 in boot you are thought teamwork to operating as a unit and to complete a task as whole. It sure sounds a lot like a Fire Dept to me.
    It’s no wonder Civil service gives preference to these young men and women. Chances are if you have a DD214 with Honorable discharge, you are a person in good moral character.
    What is even more amazing to me is 20 years ago, when nobody wanted these jobs. The only people who would apply for them were the vets. Now that these Cities Pay better and bennies have increased we now have all these college kids applying, where were you guys when the job wasn’t so “Neat‘?

  20. #20
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    NSC is completely correct. The past several posts have been filled with stereotype after stereotype. How can you make statements about a "college student" or a Marine? There is no absolute as to what type of person joins or does anything! If I were to tell you that I was a degree holding Marine, how would that fit into your stereotype(s)? Please, enough stereotypes are riddled through this world, and unfortunately the fire service is no exception (read: public thinks,"dumb, stupid, hardened men who break stuff unnecessarily and get drunk later"). Try and not play into those tendencies to stereotype.

    As for the civil service test, it may have been designed to provide Vets with job opportunities, but it soon would have had to open to non-vets as they dwindled when the war was over. Presently, they just keep the name "Civil Service" and have similar testing standards because it was easy to do so. Who wants to re-create the wheel?

    Anyone who has done anything extra of value deserves a relative bonus in these sorts of test. Do veterans deserve extra points? Damn right. But so do degree holders and applicants with firefighting training and experience, for example. Anything that takes discipline to achieve will benefit the Fire Service. I do think that in many civil service processes around the country, veterans AND other groups are given too much of a bonus towards the job than is neccessary. However, such is life. You want to change it? Get into a position to do so.

    As for those of you that are arguing about veterans protecting our nation and freedom. Preach on. However, your arguement is forgetting the millions of service workers here in our own country that work everyday to keep that same freedom in check. God help us should the police force suddenly drop or the firemen stop going to alarms, medical or fire. God help us should the politicians stop holding summits with volitile nation leaders. Soldiers are an admirable group of Americans. But they are not the only ones that protect our freedom. Guns, ammo, and amazing pieces of machinery are not always necessary to fight the war for freedom. There are many, many ways, all just as admirable.
    "Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply beacuse it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachs and elders. Do not belive in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conductive to the good and beneift of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

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