1. #1
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    Question Product Info. Needed (Nozzles)

    I am compiling information about nozzles. Specifically I am looking for opinions on Saberjet Nozzles and opinions on what other good smooth bore nozzles I might want to look at. My department is planning on making a purchase in the near future.

    WARNING: I want info and opinions on the nozzles only. My department has done our research and decided what type of nozzles to go with. I only want to know what good manufactuers are out there for these type of nozzles, not have a debate on smooth bore vs. fog.

    Thanks for your assistance

    -J
    "The person who says it can't be done, is ALWAYS interupted by the person that JUST DID IT!!"

    FIRST IN ....... LAST OUT

    It is not all glory, I roll a lot of HOSE!!!!

  2. #2
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    We use Akron Marauder & Turbojets and have done for a number of years. Very good strike range and are durable too.
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

  3. #3
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    About 2 years ago we did an exhaustive test of available nozzles. The criteria was that 1 ff could handle the nozzle effectively from a crouched position. (this was pre-sabrejet days). This led to an adoption of smooth bores and low pressure fogs. The best combination of gpm/nozzle pressure/reaction force. One of the items that presented itself was that for us a 7/8 tip was better than the more widely used 15/16 tip due to the gpm/np/rf and 1 person operation criteria. The other item was that if you are going to use smooth bores you had better have engine drivers with a clue.
    There are several good nozzle mfg's out there, but you must still specify exactly what you need. these are some of the pitfalls,
    Specify a 1-3/8 bore on the bale, most 1-1/2 nozzles use a 1-1/4 bale, the 1-3/8 is more widely used on 2-1/2 nozzles, remember s/b's are very sensitive to the last several feet of line prior to the nozzle.
    Do not use the cutout type of bale, this destroys the stream on a s/b, even with a stream straightener the cutout bale is still not as good as the straight through bale.
    Even though the Akron bale looks cheesy, we drove an engine over it and could still use it.
    The stub tips behind the fog nozzle won't work as well as a regular tapered smooth bore tip.
    Find a fog with rotating inner teeth, these nozzles generally have a better fog stream but require a little more upkeep.
    Test the nozzles with a flow meter(and check the meter frequently) you will find drastic changes in gpm when going from wide to narrow fogs.
    I personally don't like automatics, they will make inadequate gpms look like a good stream and use extra pressure to do it. If you have a gpm adjustable fog and the stream is bad (inadequate pressure)you can adjust the gpm to a lower setting and sometimes get the stream back, This tells you what gpms you are really flowing, which may not be enough, and it doesn't use up potential nozzle pressure to activate the internal workings of the nozzle.
    I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to flow the nozzles using test equipment to check up on the mfg's claims.
    By the way, we bought Akrons.

  4. #4
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    Assistant Chief 591,

    We also did extensive testing of nozzles before we made our current choice. We did not have the Saberjet as an option as the nozzle wasn't on the market yet. We chose 2 inch hose with an Elkhart low pressure combination nozzle that flows 200 at 75 psi, it is a break a part with a 1 1/4 inch smooth bore behind it. We can underpump the combo to get 160 gpm at about 55 psi nozzle pressure, or flow 200 at 75 psi NP, or remove the combo and flow 300 at 40 psi NP. We have the gauges tagged so the MPO knows the pressure for each set-up for each line.

    Now onto your question; I have tested the Saberjet, although not extensively, and I like the concept. In my mind the smoothbore on that nozzle would be the primary nozzle with the fog used in ancillary roles such as venting. I am assuming you would be going with 1 3/4 inch hoselines, if that is the case either the 7/8 or the 15/16 inch tip is a good choice. I personally favor the 15/16 inch tip, 182 gpm is quite the fire killer. The one down side to the Saberjet is the additionala training, or shall I say retraining of firefighters who are used to the standard way a combo nozzle works.

    If you are looking for smoothbores I would go with the same size I mentioned as the center of the Saberjet. 7/8 I believe is around 160 gpm (not sure), and again the 15/16 is around 182 gpm.

    Until they make a Saberjet with a 1 1/8 (265 gpm), or with a 1 1/4 (326 gpm) center I believe the flow is too small for use on a 2 1/2 line. If you need that big of water go with smoothbores.

    Our low pressure nozzles are Elkhart, we have used Akron nozzles in the past. Both are reputable established companies that build quality products. I agree with the statement that says a tapered tip gives a better stream. But also will say that a slug tip gives an acceptable stream. We have used them for years. Also the advice on going with the larger 1 3/8" bales is good advice. If the valve becomes a restriction it actually becomes the tip size and can affect flow and stream quality.

    Good luck!!

    FyredUp

  5. #5
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    Default Nozzles

    We currently have a few TFT's and Akrons, automatics. We are looking into getting new nozzles ourselves, replacements and additionals, depending onthe Federal Government. Anyway, we tested POK nozzles and really liked them, the smoothe bore had very little turbulance compared to our other, and the Automatics made a better fog pattern. Also maintained flow at a lower pressure. The POK also is a bit less expensive. Basically we thought it kicked the A** of the TFT and Akron Akromatic.

    Just food for thought.

    Good Luck

  6. #6
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    Down here we looked at replacing our nozzles for our newer engine and we looked at several different options and nozzles. Althouggh we never actually tested one against the other in actual simulations we looked at how each would work in our volleys hands. We looked at the saberjet, and TFT"S with smooth bores orfices, as well as akron turbojets with break-a-way heads. After looking at them, we chose to go with the turbojets with break a way heads and have the orfices have a 15/16 smooth bore installed to give us the best of both worlds. Not that the saberjet or TFT were bad, our officers felt that it would take more training to get the people more familiar with theEIR ops than the TURBOjet with break a ways.

    In the current issue of Fire-Rescue I believe that there is a little article on nozzles which compare the saberjet and vindicator nozzles that were tested against each other in actuall simulators. Pretty good info to see. Wish it was available a few months ago.


    KEEP DOING IT FOR THE RIGHT REASONS !!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by old timer; 08-22-2002 at 09:14 PM.

  7. #7
    iceman4442
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    We've been using the Saberjet on our attack lines for about 4 months, and training with them for several months before that. We have 1 3/4", and opted for the 1" smoothbore, which works very well with our CAFS.

    I was a little surprised at the amount of training time we had to dedicate to them, as some of the guys had real trouble adapting to the separate controls for the smooth bore and the fog, but everyone eventually "got it." (We didn't put them in service until everyone was ready to use them!) The other thing we found was that we needed to pay more attention to the water supply, as the smooth bore flows more water than the adjustables we had been using.

    Overall, we like them, and they also work very well with the CAFS through the smooth bore, which is one of the reasons we looked at them in the first place. (We went through the "smooth bore vs. fog/adjustable tip" WAR prior to testing the Saberjet!) Depending on who loaded the line, you had to check to see what type of nozzle you had on it!

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    Talking

    Thank you to everyone for your input. Keep it coming if anyone has more. I have seen a couple of manufacturers that we have not looked into but we will. We have been testing and researching on and off for about 6 or 7 months now. We are getting close!!

    Thanks again.

    -Jeremiah
    Last edited by AsstChief591; 08-22-2002 at 07:04 PM.
    "The person who says it can't be done, is ALWAYS interupted by the person that JUST DID IT!!"

    FIRST IN ....... LAST OUT

    It is not all glory, I roll a lot of HOSE!!!!

  9. #9
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    Just to clarify a few things, we went with the 7/8 tip because our test showed that is about all 1 person could handle from a crouch. The 15/16 would be a better choice for fire attack except that it requires 2 people on the nozzle. We use a 7/8 stub tip, the numbers are 7/8 160gpm@50psi, if you keep the fog on it is set at 150gpm@75psi, this comes out to about the same pump pressures (depending on which f/loss figures you use) so the driver doesn't have to change pressures depending on whether it is a fog or smooth bore. It just simplifies things a little.

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