1. #1
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    Lightbulb FDNY hose question

    Always looking for fresh ideas...does anyone know about the hose packs that FDNY stores under the hard suction hose on the driver side of the engines? It looks like 2.5 in high rise packs...I was just wondering if anyone knew any specifics on these...thanks

  2. #2
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    Default FDNY Hose Loads/Configuration

    The hose is 2-1/2-inch usually 2-3 lengths (100'-150') It is configured so that both mail and female ends are side by side. It commonly used for fires where a standpipe hookup is required, not necessarily a high-rise building. The nozzle is a smoothbore nozzle with an 1-1/8-inch tip.

    Other hose carried on the side of the pumper includes a 35-foot soft section 5-inch hose with 4-1/2-inch couplings (usually in the front bumper trough or in the side), a 10-foot section of 3-1/2-inch semi-rigid hose with 3-1/2-inch couplings and 2 10-foot sections of 4-inch hard suction hose each with 4-1/2-inch couplings.

    In the bed there is 2 sections of 10 lengths of 3-1/2 coupled to 6 lengths of 2-1/2, 2 sections of 10 lengths of 2-1/2 coupled to 6 lengths of 1-3/4 and then 10 lengths of 3-1/2. Some pumpers also have 2-3 lengths of 1-3/4-inch hose tossed on top for outside rubbish or car fires. This is due to the current pumpers no longer having booster reels.

    There are no crosslay hoseloads as hose is typically backstretched from the pumper. Though the old Mack pumpers did have some crosslays. The hose is not preconnected.

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    41,

    Close enough.

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    does fdny use that suction to draft very often. just curious.

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    Originally posted by E ngine Lt
    41,

    Close enough.

    Yeah, for a truckie, not bad at all. To answer the direct question, though, here is a direct answer. To clarify, 41Truck's answer may be a tad misleading. Yes, it is 2 1/2" hose, and yes, a 1 1/8" Main Stream Tip on the Smoothbore nozzle is used. But they are not packed in 100'-150' configurations. Each one that you see (normally 3 are there underneath the hard and soft suction hoses) is simply one length each (50 feet.) And there should be a fourth one someplace else on the engine, so that each member carries one. So, an engine crew carrying four rollups to up to the fire will have a 200 foot line at their disposal. They are packed so that the male and female couplings are side by side. When the "rollups" are layed down side by side they can all be connected to each other before removing the straps. By the way, these straps are commonly nothing more than rubber inner tubes.

    And now to answer FireExplorer13's question about drafting: Uh, no.

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    Thanx a lot guys. I like the idea of being able to connect the sections before you actually have to flake out the hose since the couplings are all beside each other.

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    Cool hard suction

    I heard somewhere that they used the hard suctions when operating with foam. The tenders would set up portable tanks and the engines would draft the foam from them.

    Also don't they use the hard suction to plug up to a hydrant ? Or to draft from a waterway during a major fire ?

    Does anyone know the FDNY truck portable ladder complement ?



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    Ladders: Trucks carry roughly the same, but may be a few variations, depending on company. Generaly. 1 35' extension
    1 24' extension
    1 20' Straight
    1 16' Straight
    1 12' Straight
    1 14' A-Frame
    1 10' Folding Ladder

    All are aluminum.


    We also recently Field Tested a 12' fold-up (literaly) ladder
    which was the size of a briefcase when folded, and opened to a full ladder, although not very sturdy one. It was too time consuming to set upand wasnt solid enough.

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    Where do they store the ground ladders?
    Bucks County, PA.

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    Default Ladders

    Where are they kept, well on the trucks of course. They unload off the rear of the rigs where that red panel is that says FDNY and keep back.

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    The ladders are stored vertically (on their beams) so you don't have to try to roll the ladder into a carrying position.

    As for the suctions, the options differ based on response order but for the first due company the options are:
    35' 5 inch on the front suction (used too frequently, leaves the rear of the rig sticking out into the street often blocking out the trucks)

    10' 3.5 inch soft suction (with 4.5 female connections on both ends) keeps the rig in tight to the curb and can be bent any which way.

    50' 3.5 hose (in side well) to go around cars and other obstructions.

    The hard suction is Required in our regs to be used by engines arriving on the second alarm or greater.
    Also can be used for drafting (a few companies carry more than one length because drafting may actually be an option for them.
    Satellites carry multiple lengths.

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    This thread brings up a question Ive alwasy had about FDNY. With the amount of fire they have, why dont the have larger pumps and LDH? Correct me if Im wrong, but I belive most of the FDNY pumper are 1000gpm. And we know they dont use any LDH. This is strange to me. I would think the minimum pump would be a 1500, and they would have tons of LDH.
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    I'd hazard a guess that they have a really good water system, and since centrifugal fire pumps take advantage of incoming pressure they might not need more than 1,000?

    Plus, there's soemthing like 250+ other engines you can call if you need a relay or more pumping capacity

    Likewise, buying that many 2000 GPM engines and that much LDH would be a lot more expensive then what they do now.
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    1st Let me address the really great water system. Is is good?..sure...great?...well lets not go overboard here! Our water system is ok...however there are many OOS hydrants throughout the 5 boro's. There are many hydrants..espeically this time of year which are broken, disabled, frozen, ran over by snow plows pushing snow etc.

    Now why we have our standard Engine as 1000gpm. There are many reasons for this and I'll try to address the ones I am familiar with. Remeber I am a fireman and not a hydraulic Engineer or Staff Chief in charge of larger strategy. FYI-Counting the Squads I think we have just over 200 Engine Companies.

    -We don't usually take more than 2 lines off any one Engine. Our hose beds are basicly set up for 2- 1 3/4" lines and 1- 2 1/2" line to come off the rear. Provided there is enough hose one could hook up another nozzle and take off the lengths required.

    However most fires where we took more than 2 lines the 3rd would come off a different Engine on a different Hydrant in most cases by far. There is no reason to overtax the Pump and Chauffeur. Besides how can a back-up line really come from the same Engine and same hydrant...there is no real redundancy.

    Most fires I've been to are controled with 1 line in operation and one standing by. (Read the World of Fire Report in the forums and look towards the end for the FDNY box summaries with battalion progress reports. Note how many lines are stretched and how many are in operation. Usually not that many.)

    -We insist on redundancy. We don't put all of our eggs in one basket. When supplying a ladder pipe we have two seperate engines from two seperate sources supplying just incase one fails.(prevents whiping of the aerial if a line should burst or fail.) When a first due Engine is feeding the standpipe and/or the sprinklers the 2nd Due and 3rd Due both are to augment each through the same or different siameses if availiable. (That is why there are two inlets on a siamese.) Also if that isn't possible they are to feed the 1st floor outlets.

    -Read the many columns and articles from Chief Tom Brennan over the years and you will see his view and comments on the overkill of LDH and what it has done to sound firefighting practices. I would have to say much of it is on the mark.

    Look back in history and you will find many Depts...maybe even yours that typically performed a Backstretch or Reverse Stretch to fires using skid loads or something similar where the male end of the hose comes off the Engine 1st. Today many Chiefs who really weren't great tactitions were sold on bigger and bigger hose...because "well if 4 inch is good 5 inch must be better"...etc. Now instead of backstretching to the hydrant leaving the front for the Ladder they just lay in all the LDH till their hearts content and bedamed truck placement or sound Engine Practices.

    I've seen what LDH and the lack of sound tactical judgement has done to fireground ops. Hose blocking out Ladders, **** Poor pressures at fires because the companies only perform In-Line Pumping(forward lays)...Meanwhile there are 7 Engines sitting in staging and not a one of their pumps is being put to use. Laying in the portable water main (which is what LDH basicly is) isn't needed at most fires because most fires are contained with 1 maybe 2 lines at most.

    From my personal experince in other more "typical" american FDs. I will say many depts perform OVERKILL with the handlines and water flows. I've been to many fires in other depts where there were 4 lines stretched and charged for a Private dwelling and the ladder pipe was flowing. All the water all from the same rig. Meanwhile I've been to some good fires in Tenements where we only have 1 or 2 lines in operation and one stretched but not charged just in case. Personal opinion from my many different depts I've worked for...we for whatever reason seem to be much more efficent with use of handlines and water than most I've encountered.

    Although it is a small difference it does make a difference on pump pressures....we overwhelmingly use smoothbore nozzles which reduces the need for higher PDP which means you will have more capacity and thus greater efficency of the water available to you.

    When you have 4 apparatus capable of pumping on your first alarm (FDNY does this as well as my previous FDs as well in addition to most urban and suburban FDs I am familiar with) there is little reason to place all ones eggs into the same basket and hope for the best. You have the Engines and the Chauffeurs....use them to your advantage. Don't be lazy like many people I've worked with...stretch off a different rig..it might just save your life.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- We have 3 stage pumps in High-Rise Engines for use in Downtown, Midtown and Queens. This is for the fires wayyyyyy up in the sky.

    We also have 6 Engines quartered with our 6 Satelite units that have 2000 gpm pumps and are used to feed the Satelites large guns or the large manifolds used at large multiple alarms. There are special hydrants city wide that they are to use for those purposes. The Satelite Units are the only appartauts to carry LDH. Those are for the large fires where LDH is really needed. Not the room and contents fire which is much more common.

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    Like FFRED said we generally operate by taking the rig to the hydrant and we carry enough hose and have enough hydrants to do so. The pumping capacity is being looked at right now, some future enhancements include satellite back-up companies to get 2000 gpm pumpers and there is discussion of 1500gpm for standard first line units. Do we need 1500gpm, not really, we operate 1 or 2 lines off the first due engine with few exceptions, we do not use LDH except for the front suction and satellites. The primary concern is our vulnerable water supply system, all of the 3.5 inch lines stretched to the fire boats at the WTC reminded the powers that be that in the event of a large scale disaster we have few options for replacing water mains in emergencies. The pipeline system in San Francisco is being looked at as well as other options. We have come along way in ashort time but we still have a lot to do.

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    Thanks. Have always been curious as to the madness behind the method

    But it makes since that you only pull 2 lines at most of any 1 engine. We pull all of of 1, hence the larger pumps. But the redundancy you bring up makse me think perhaps we need to readdress how we do things
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    The use of LDH is no more a bad thing for the fire service than any other tool or invention or idea when it is applied properly.

    I am a member of a small rural volly FD. We are mostly protected by a hydrant system. Most hydrants operate in the 40-60 psi range. The hydrants are relatively closely placed, 500 feet or less in most cases. A couple of hose lays are in the 1000 foot range. Our standard ops call for the first in engine to go directly to the scene and investigate with the second laying in to that engine. The first in engine can lay in on the discretion of the officer. In that case the second due will find it's own water and lay its own lines.

    We do not have the luxury of more than 2 engines without mutual aid so for us the ability to bring all the water that hydrant has right to the fire is very beneficial. We are set up to make a hard hit right off the bat. We use 2 inch attack lines with 200gpm at 75psi combo break apart nozzles backed by a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. We tried the new FDNY smoothbore nozzles last fall and are planning to purchase the 1 inch tip and replacing at least some of our combo nozzles. The next step is a preconnected Stinger hooked to 200 feet of 3 inch line or the engine mounted deck gun.

    I am also a member of a career FD with 100 members. We run 2 front line engines, 2 quints, and a truck. We use 5 inch hose. We changed from dropping dual 2 1/2" lines and laying out was changed about 3 years ago. The way we used to do it was the first in engine dropped 1-2 1/2 inch line with a wye and 150 of 1 3/4 inch line, another bundle of 1 3/4 was dropped also but is not connected to allow easy lay out of the first line. The other 2 1/2 laid had a 250 at 100 combo nozzle. All other engines would essentially repeat this procedure as needed. The front of the building was left clear for the truck company.

    Now,with the discretion of the officer depending on what is showing, he first due can either go straight in or lay in it's own line. The second engine either supplies the first of lays it's own lines. the front of the building is still left open for the truck as the first engine passes the front of the building. This has worked very well for us.

    I am no expert on what FDNY does and won't pretend to be. I am of the idea that each FD has to look at their particular situation and figure out what works best for them. In fact I have read here many times from the FDNY guys themselves that others should not do what they do because it may not work where they are. Obviously the FDNY does a great job and I wish i had the people and resources they do.

    FyredUp

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    Does the FDNY use any vindicator nozzles?

    IIRC they tested them out against their smoothbores at the time.

    What smoothbore nozzle do you guys use, ID brand and such.

    Are there any combi/automatic nozzles around?
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    The Vindicators were tested by a few companies and din't make the cut. One of them was first due at a seven alarm fire on College ave in the Bronx. I can't think of all of the co's that had them but Engines 23, 92 and 93 definitley had them for testing.
    We use Akron sabre shut offs 1.5 inch with 15/16 tip on 1.75 inch lines. 2.5 with inch and an eighth on the 2.5"
    The trash lines have some type of akron automatic nozzle (fixed gal.)
    Some companies (not many) used to use combination nozzles but I don't know of any that still do.

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