1. #1
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    Default Paid, vs. Comb. & Vol.?

    Webteam,
    Out of the 19,500+ FEMA applications this year how many were from Paid, Combination, and Vol.

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    MIKEY:
    Try this link to FEMA's information about the applications

    http://www.usfa.fema.gov/dhtml/media/02-034.cfm

    The quick and sweet is

    USFA is still reviewing applications, but this year’s preliminary data show a broad spectrum of fire departments and needs that include:

    Volunteer/Combination fire departments: 17, 786 applications requesting more than $1.9 billion.
    Career fire departments: 1,733 applications requesting more than $287 million.


    Terry
    Be Safe Out there.

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    FROM ARTICLE EARLIER THIS YEAR.

    Bourne gave these preliminary numbers for department breakdown:

    Volunteer/Combo Departments, 17,786 requesting $1.9 billion.

    Career Departments, 1733 requesting $287 million.

    The average request increased in value, Bourne said. But since each department could only apply in one of four program areas, the total amount requested was lower this year.
    The four program areas and amounts requested were listed.

    Fire Operations and Firefighter Safety: $882 million, 58% of applications.

    Vehicles: $1.26 billion, 37% of applications.

    Emergency Medical Services: $35 million, 2% of applications.

    Fire Prevention Programs: $30.5 million, 3% of applications.

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    Question Making Sure I Understand

    From Federal Register...

    "According to a 2000 survey by the National Fire Protection Association, volunteer and combination departments protect 55 percent of the population of the United States and career departments protect 45 percent of the population. Therefore, the target distribution of funds is 45 percent for career departments and 55 percent for volunteer/combination departments."

    So 10% of the applications will get 45% of the money available.

    This means that most of the Career requests will get fulfilled (much higher than the 1 in 3 number thrown around in these forums), while 90% of the requests fight for the rest.

    Perhaps we should suggest to our representation in Congress that the statement in the Federal Register is a simplification of the situation, and the grant request numbers back up the point.

    I am not suggesting that there isn't a need for funding for career departments, but it seems like the probability of recieving funding is severly tipped in their favor using this statistic as a basis for alocating funds.

    Remember that this is my opinion only, and I am sure my opinion is biased since I am in the volunteer category which has to fight with over 17 thousand applications for a chance to even get my narative read.

    Scott Lang
    Arlington Fire Dept.
    assistant Chief

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    Default Arlington

    Arlington makes a good point.

    Additionally, the application and guidance calls for a competition between rural, suburban and urban as well as volunteer/combination vs. career. Funny thing is that you will be hard pressed to find a definition for "suburban" anywhere. US Census does not even make a suburban distinction. My guess is that alot of departments unknowingly put themselves at a disadvantage on the computer scoring by selecting the wrong classification.

    In order to clearly compare apples-to-apples, and allow departments to be competitive, these definitions need to be made for next year.


    Just my opinion.

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    Post Interesting . . .

    Everyone is right, those 45% and 55% figures are misleading. The problem around here is we have very few fully paid professional departments. We have a lot of mixed combinations, and departments whith paid guys during the day, so we really all fall into the volunteer/combo category. What I don't understand is the threshold where a volunteer department becomes a combination (our chief is paid $5,000 per year, everyone else is volunteer), and when combo departments become paid departments (there are still volunteer companies within the FDNY). The register and the guidance should better explain all of this. Also, the government likes to base classification between rural, suburban, and urban on population scales. However, a fire department with 50,000 residents covering a few sqaure miles is much different from one that covers a whole county area and has 50,000 residents. Things for the future, I suppose.

    Everyone still waiting like me on this year's program, good luck!

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    Default Distribution so far

    Does anyone know how the distribution has occurred thus far with regard to career vs volly-comb? This really effectes the odds at this point.

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    Does anyone know how the distribution has occurred thus far with regard to career vs volly-comb
    Since we're only through Round 3 and starting Round 4 (about 20% of the notifications) and since the 45/55 percent is not likely to truly be reflected with such a minority percentage awarded, doing this kind of comparision now would probably not be an accurate reflection of anything.

    WebTeam

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    Arlington,
    Your math is close but it's actually better odds for the career depts. and worse for Vol./Comb. than what you posted. $360 Million less administrative equals $324 Million. 55 percent for Vol./Comb. equals $178,200,000, for request equaling 1.9 Billion = 9.38% or approx. 1 in 11 chance of being funded if you are Vol./ Comb. Dept. overall.
    45 percent for paid depts. equals $145,800,000 to fund a request for 287,000,000 or a 50.8% or a 1 in 2 chance of being funded if you are paid.
    These are just overall odds and a lot of variance will take place as there is a restriction of no more than 25% on vehicles and no less than 5% on fire prevention.
    Overall I'm glab the money is there and I only hope some in our region will receive help. Also I hope that those funded will hand down to the less fortunate depts. in their area or at less contact http://www.helpingourown.com and try to get it to someone that can find a home for equipment, instead of finding it's way to a landfill, one depts. junk is anothers GOLD!

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    45% and 55% is population--how does it work out when you look at squar miles? Vol. depts seem to have quite a bit more miles to cover between people

    Stay safe the dragon still bites

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    Myron,
    You have to remember that the bill was wrote up and lobbied by your fulltime depts. based on population served . Personally I think we all should get a grant based only on need? But so much for what I think.

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    Default

    There are so many variables and ways to figure out and prioritize department scores that we'll never know about.

    Yes, population was probably a factor. Yes, and so was square miles covered, type of department, number of calls, annual budget, number of active members and so on and so on.

    My guess is that FEMA's computers had a formula to assign a ranking, or score, to each application based on lots of criteria.

    Added to this score was probably your request details - the more closely aligned with the program priorities, the higher the score. They said right in the guidance document that new purchases would score better that replacement purchases and compliance items would score better than "nice to have's"

    Bottom line, if your department score was low (in comparison) and your request score was high (in comparison), you could conceivably score the same as someone with a high department score and poor request score.

    Based on my twisted logic, the perfect score would then come from some department with lots of active members, a ton of calls for a high population density (population/sq.miles covered) for your area type (rural/suburban/urban) and no budget while requesting new purchases (not replacement) of compliance required items.

    That complex equation could be really funky:

    (Annual Budget/((Population/sq. miles covered)/calls per year))+(20 x (number of new compliance purchases) + (10 x (number of replacement items) - (30 x (number of non-program items) -- hypothetically speaking.

    I think the volunteer/career category was just for grouping into different $$ buckets. So was suburban/rural/urban.

    This is just my theory, there are no facts to support it.

    What I do know for sure is that there is some method to their madness. We'll all just have to wait and see how it ends up and hope that there is money again next year.

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    Thumbs up

    Hazman,
    I think you hit the nail on the head with you rendition of the equation!

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    Default pi r squared no !!! pie are round

    The way I see it.
    They found 2 55gal drums for the money to go in. The one for paid depts was empty, the one for volunteers still had 10 gals of oil in it. At ten gallons it was a reportable quantity, so if they emptied it on to the ground it would become a haz-mat incident. So the formula was set 55 gallons of money for the paid depts and 45 gallons of money for the volunteers. The application were then sent to a central computer but after much scrutiny it was discovered that they were all entered on an old univac punch card system. This will not do said some one at the top. What shall we do? some one asked. We must look at this scientificly came the answer from wise men. As the days passed the solution came. We shall use a formula they declaired. A point for this, a deduction for that. Each application will have a number in the end. Well said they, this seems fair and good, but what does the number mean? Asked a man in the back. What do you mean what does it mean, the wise men asked? It is mathamatical, it is a number thats what it means. But who shall win the money he asked? Win the money? What money? said the wisemen. The fire money said the little man. We shall study this more said the wise men. The applications were put in 3 boxes to wait the results of their study. 7500 in the first box until it was full. 6500 in the second. and 5500 the third. The boxes are there to this day awaiting an answer.
    We may never know how the wise men ended thier delema.
    wellsfr
    We've been doing so much for so long with so little. We can do almost anything with nothing.

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    Default LMAO at Wellsfr

    haha!! (rolling on floor)

    Wellsfr, I like your theory much better!! Probably much, much more accurate. I guess my theory gave the whole program way too much credit.

    Good job at uncovering the real truth.

    So, did the wisemen decide to send a letter to those in the box of 7500 to notifiy them of their status? I suppose they couldn't come up with anything to write except "Dear John"?

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    Very good wellsfr!!

    My only question would be, "What kind of box did the wise men choose to place the notices in?" I think the whole secret to the equation lies there and probably the answers to the universe as well!

    Keep the faith!

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