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    Default extracation on vehicles

    we had an auto extrication class last night monthly fire dept drill.and one question i had that the dept instructor couldnt answer.was on the newer trucks with the 3rd door and the new saturn cars with the 3rd door.there is no center post(B post) whats the best way of opening the door if the door is crushed due to a side impact hit...thank you in advance..Jason L.

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    There was a very good discussion of this a while back - topics were Pillarless Vehicles.

    Here are the links to the 2 threads.

    http://www.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...highlight=door

    http://www.firehouse.com/forums2/sho...highlight=door
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
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    Instructor

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    N2D has summed it up pretty well. Check out the links he suggested- I took a heap of photos of a Dodge Ram 2500 which has this exact door set up you asked about. I originally asked the same questions, but then went on to answer them myself when I took the photos and posted them....
    Luke

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    Say Lutan,Luke,buddy is THAT a third door conversion or a converted third door? Hehe T.C.

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    A Posting from Forum Moderator Ron Moore

    In dealing with newer model vehicles with the rear-hinged third or fourth doors, here is a simple scenario to serve as a basis for some discussion.

    The image below in the vehicle you are assigned to work on.

    Your assignment: Medics want to remove front and rear seat injured patients out this side of the vehicle. You and your partner, using tools and equipment available within your inventory, must make the the extrication pathway for the boarded patients.

    What would you do or how would you accomplish this assignment step-by-step?
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    Second point of view.
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    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
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    Talking

    well from looking at both pictures i would say that the top natur pin on the third door is already loose. also i have a purchase point already at the bottom natur pin as well as the hinges on the front door. i also see a purchase point already developed oh the hinge side of the third door.

    with this all in mind i would extricate in this order.

    1. disconect battery

    2. stabilize vehical

    3. expose hinges on both doors

    4. spread up on bottom of third door at natur pin and expose

    5. cut natur pin and third door hinges

    6. open both doors as one { option #1 }

    7. cut front hinges and remove both doors as one { option #2}

    8. remove pt.

    this is only one way depending on your tools at you desposel you may have more options open to you. however i belive this would be the quickest and safest way for the pt.

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    After stabilizing, electrical precautions, etc.

    Spreader at back end of rear door and spread down and out. Force off rear hinges. (moves door outward away from patient) Come-a-long around front of vehicle to back of rear door. Continue using Spreader (or ram) to force door outward and come-a-long to pull door out and forward. Looking at pictures, I agree that top and bottom catches in the middle of doors (B post?) are free. If B post is not free, spread as necessary. Pivot entire door assembly on front hinges and remove by cutting hinges if necessary.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Just a comment to throw in, most of these third doors on trucks have latches at the top and the bottom of them, so if you were going to try to open both doors as one, whether spreading from the hinge side of the rear door or the hinge side of the front door, you would still have the latches on the top and bottom of the rear door to contend with. I've yet to run into a scenario like this, training or otherwise, so I dont know if you spread either door, if it would open far enough for you to be able to get in and spread the door off of those top and bottom latches, or if you could get in and cut those latches, but I think I would try that method. After all stabilization and precautions have been taken, spread from hinge side on either door and see what my options were with the latches on the rear door. I would attempt to cut them if possible, just like doing a "rip-n-blitz" on a 4 door car, and remove the side doors that way on this truck. Comments, suggestions, complaints?????

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    Update!

    You now take a close look at the bottom latch assembly along the rocker channel and this is what you see. How does this confirm or change what you want to do?
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    First thought is Wow, latch assembly not that strong on these vehicles.

    Does not change plan otherwise. Looks as though it is exposed enough that it could be cut easily.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Ron Moore

    From the pictures it appears there is a fairly substantial gap where the top latch 'should' be connected. Has it been pulled out?

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    Ok.. a while ago, I read pretty much all that Ron Moore had to say about this type of construction, specifically referring to the Saturn type vehicles. So on that I took his info and did a little research project of my own.

    I visited a 2002 Dodge 2500, 2002 Ford 250 and a 2002 Chev (something? can't remember what series it was - the Guinness was kicking in about then I think - no just kidding). Anyway what I found was that mostly these vehicles are going to be a real pain in the backside. For popping doors, it didn't seem that would be too difficult, the hard part was for if you needed to do a dash roll. Most of us would use a jam crib and ram the dash upwards. Something I did find very interesting though was that the latches for these doors was very much like in a cargo van with the swing type doors. I am wondering if the same technique could be applied on the new vehicles as in a cargo type door? I found that there was no place to anchor the jam crib (which would normally go against the "C" post.) So I figured this would be a good place to learn how to jack the dash instead, especially since with the 4x4 and tilt steering etc, pulling the dash didn't seem like a good idea either.

    So back to our exercise:

    1) after vehicle stablization, and safety factors (we all cover those parts very well.) it is time to get on with extrication, and popping the rear window to check on the Pts and maybe get a FR in there with them if possible - provided that access through the drivers side is not viable = try before you pry, right.

    2) two teams can work at this one I think... one with jaws at the rear of the cab, to pop the hinges of the rear door, while the second team with sawzall, try and cut the hinges at the front, they look as though they are well exposed.

    3) if all goes well there, the doors (I think they will anyway) be still joined at the centre, where the front door looks almost ready to drop once the hinges are cut. The top rear of the front door is already displaced, and the bottom looks about ready to let go as well. If not use jaws again to squeeze the rocker channel and encourage the front door to let go. It is possible that with the cutting of all hinges, the doors might be willing to either lowered down or removed as a unit.

    4) if not, once the front door is gone, the seats do fold forward on the pax side, and in any case Pt #1 should be removable by this point.

    5) I am suspicious of the fact that once the front door comes loose, the rear one will drop of its own accord. This would be a major safety factor for anyone working in the area. Of course both teams should still be right there, so although it is a consideration to take into account, someone would be there to watch out in case it does. If not then again application of the jaws on the rocker channel and possibly on the roof to force the latch to let go, and the door is ready to take away, you have already removed the rear hinges. Now you have direct access to your rear Pt#2.


    ** I really enjoy working on these exercises, but sometimes find it difficult to express my thoughts. Using pictures or even better a working model to make my presentation is much better. Oh well we do what we can with the tools at hand, right. **
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    No. The mechanism at the top of the third door is still is grabbing the roof rail latch assembly. It is still "jammed" at the top.
    Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
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    Place the spreaders in the side window of the rear door and spread parallel to the sill. This will open up the top, between the window frame and the roof and latch.

    Place spreaders in this gap and then spread open door, working my way towards the back, where the hinges are. As the hinges become exposed, either cut them or continue to spread until they break.

    Keep working my way down the rear of the door until we come to the bottom.

    Place the spreaders between the B pillar and the back of the door and spread until the bottom latch opens/breaks.

    Fold both the rear and front door around towards the front....
    Luke

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