1. #26
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
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    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
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    Thumbs up Yup !

    This gray haired old male (44 years service,14 as a chief officer)agrees 101% with the lady from Canada. She appears to be better Chief material than many out there. Bet she has never gotten anyone hurt on her crew. Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  2. #27
    Disillusioned Subscriber
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    Default

    We've had 2 teams leave the roof due to unsafe conditions. That generally means either a whole lot of sag, sponginess, or a fair amount fire breakthrough. Anyway you "formulate" it, this is an unsafe condition.

    Let's look at a couple things here.
    1. Venting cools the fire for interior attack.
    Absolutely. No argument from me on this one. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to hang one of my firefighters out there like a tea bag.
    2. Knowing what you are standing on and cutting through always helps.
    In this case though the only information we need is that the roof is unsafe. It doesn't matter one bit if that roof is built of bowstring trusses, lightweight trusses, or candy cane trusses. If it's unsafe, it's unsafe. Construction methods have no bearing in this decision tree.
    3. If the roof goes the walls could go.
    4. If the roof goes the ceiling could go.
    Agreed. Now with this in mind and the roof structure obviously unsafe since I've had 2 crews abandon the roof operations for that reason, why in the name of Moses and all things holy, do I leave my firefighters inside conducting an interior operation in a building that may be approaching collapse?
    ...why wouldn't you want to know everything if a life is at stake?
    We don't need to know "everything" in this case. He obviously knew that this person was at risk for going through. That's indicated by his use of a person of minimum weight and tying a rope to them. All I need to know at this point if I were this "Chief" is that I have unnecessarily endangered the life of my firefighter on the roof, and also the lives of the interior crews by continued operation under an unsound roof structure.

    Why risk these peoples' lives to save a building that will probably be torn down in a week or two?

    But for the Grace of God, we would be reading a NIOSH Firefighter Death report on just how stupid this operation was sometime in the next year.

    Mo
    Steve Gallagher
    IACOJ BOT
    ----------------------------
    "I don't apologize for anything. When I make a mistake, I take the blame and go on from there." - Woody Hayes

  3. #28
    MembersZone Subscriber
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    Default He must have read it somewhere!

    Obviously this chief got the idea after reading Alan Baird's Book of Fireground Ops and BBQs. In Chapter 6: "How to Win the Confidence of Your Men", you teach your people to think that you think you know what you're doing! Anyone who has seriously injured or killed a firefighter knows that the best way to "test" a roof is to put somebody on it. And just to show his men how much he cared, he put a rope on him for safety. I smell "Chief of the Year" honors!
    Sorry, folks; I had to take an "Alan Baird" shot.
    To get serious; I agree that there was a serious communication AND accountability problem at this fireground. "Roof sector leader to the guy in the white hat standing flat on the ground; the roof is unsafe and we are coming down." If the chief is, in fact, worthy, he is switching to a purely defensive strategy (surround and drown). Me thinks that the roof had already vented itself anyway. Besides, you don't cut vent holes in roofs to squirt water into! But the chief probably wanted to try out the trench cut he learnt about from reading Firehouse magazine!
    Ladergurl; your chief is a moron and you were almost a widow. Both of you were lucky this time.
    Perhaps Chief "Rope-A-Dope" should consider a different hobby, such as a crash test dummy!
    You shouldn't make it a habit of questioning the orders of your officers; just the stupid ones. You're firefighters; not lemmings.
    Don't let that "can do" attitude get you into "oh,sh*t" trouble!
    A tragedy was averted here; not by sound logic, but by pure luck.
    Stay safe so you can grow up to be a crusty old jake.
    IMACOJ because I didn't listen to me!

  4. #29
    Senior Member
    FDNYRR's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Really bad move.........Ladergurl read page 2.......more common-sense there then in the whole thread.

    Also we must assume this "bait" was attired in Bunkers, wearing an SCBA? If so there was no way in hell he could have been pulled out of a hole, before the Fire inflicted third degree burns on at least 100% of their lower extremities.

    Enter: The Company Officer or Senior Man(Woman)-----where the hell were they? If you have time research the FDNY Waldbaums Fire...we lost six guys through the roof quicker then you can belch..and if they had a line, it would have been a well done LoMein!
    Last edited by FDNYRR; 09-04-2002 at 08:37 PM.
    "All gave some...Some gave all!"
    9/11/01 Lest we forget!
    FDNYRR

  5. #30
    IACOJ BOD
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    Default

    At this point kiwi has just picked himself up off the floor, and is seen leaving the room muttering "It can't be true, it just can't be."
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  6. #31
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    Default

    HMMM, nother case of stupid in a no stupid zone?
    I wasn't there, so I can't say, but as soon as an officer says "just tie this rope and we'll save you if/when you go through...", that is when I would use multiple vulgar retorts, and tell them how nuts they were.

  7. #32
    District Chief
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    Exclamation Senseless

    1) How long was the rope? If it was long enough for the firefighter to "walk across the roof" what good would it have done anyway if the roof failed? Not a good move Next time use a short securing device...perhaps a chain NOT!!!!!

    2) It is obvious that the Chief was not aware of or had no concern in relation to what the shock load of a "light firefighter" would do when the rope rand out and stopped as he/she fell would do to the ladder. (setting aside the possibility that it may have been long enough to allow them to "hit" bottom)

    3) If two crews had already reported the roof "unsafe" then why did he send someone else? If he was not aware then we have a failure in the communication system.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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