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  1. #41
    Senior Member Temptaker's Avatar
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    Paul Grimwood

    Are you talking about "pulsing"?


  2. #42
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Post Point to Paul

    Paul...point well taken...some water is better than none for sure.. That leads credibility to the "Water can" theory...

    And in fairness...I may be confusing the "high pressure" line "traditional" reel line, which in my experience is very heavy. So...I will opt to bow out of that "1 inch line" discussion for lack of information on my part.

    Thanks for the compliment by the way...

    Regards
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    BMI Investigator
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  3. #43
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Temptaker
    Paul Grimwood

    Are you talking about "pulsing"?
    Yes! Absolutely! If it's needed....You can even 'pulse' with a 'can' Capt.

  4. #44
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    Cap Stan

    I too have enjoyed reading your responses and thoughts in this and other discussions on the forums, and have been given a great amount of food for thought.

    On the 40 GPM side of life, a personal experience. Two of us were advancing into a single level wood dwelling of approximately 100 years old. wood plank walls, with hessian scrim over that and wallpaper. A narrow coridor went through from one end to the other with all rooms flowing off this.

    As we got level with the lounge entrance (no door) the room flashed over. All the two guys behind us at the door way saw was the flames roll over us, splash off the wall behind and head down the hall towards them. The next thing they saw was a bloody great cloud of steam as I fought with the branch.

    We knocked the flashover back at the expense of some pretty damn good steam burns, and continued to go for the base of the fire. We lost the house due to extension in the end.

    Now if we had been cruising past that door way to do a search without a branch, we would have had our day knackered in a hurry without a line to defend ourselves.

    So I am probably biased about using lines for searching.

    The house construction does help in dictating the tactics, most homes here are built on raised piles, from 2 to 3 feet off the ground. This allows good air flow keeping the house dry in winter and cool in summer.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  5. #45
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    Everyone here is making very good points. This has been a very good subject. But, the diferences all comes down to a few things. Experience, man-power, and SOP's. If you are not comfortable searching without a line, then don't. The best thing you can do for any victim is to put out the fire anyway. If you don't have the man-power to do fire attack and search with seperate crews and at the same time, then you can't. And, if your SOP's tell you you have to take a line, then do it. The two major things we have to do when we are called, as I see it, are get a line to the fire and search for victims. How you do those things are up to you and the conditions you are faced with. Most importantly train and talk about what you want to do. Everyone must be on the same page so crap doesn't come your way.

  6. #46
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Default Oh My!

    KIWI...thanks for the cudos....

    Don't misunderstand me brother. I an not saying you should not take a line... In my opinion it slows you down..


    But..(the reason for the OH MY)...Staylow sums it up...

    No two departments are going to operate the same based on the factors he mentions.

    So you have to come up with something that works for you that focuses on getting the job done and getting it done safely. Then you train that way and everyone knows what is expected of them. Do what works for you and do it well...train train train and then evaluate the successes. Then...come to these places and share it with the world so that we can all evaluate our options.

    God Bless you all...and now...a moment for our brothers in FDNY.......................... .............................. AMEN!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  7. #47
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    Kia Kaha Brothers.

    (Be Strong)

    Kiwi
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  8. #48
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    Kristen, you are correct, it is a kinda standard to stage 2 floors below the fire floor, and you use the standpipe connection a floor below the fire floor. I don't think a few of you clearly understood the question he was asking. He asked that for those who say to search with a line, that if you were tasked to search the floor ABOVE the fire floor, would you stretch a line from 2 floors below.
    So if you had a fire on the 20th floor, you would stage on the 18th, connect the attack line on the 19th. But if your company was assigned to search the 21st floor, he wants to know if or who would stretch a line up from the 19th floor. I don't have time to repost why I said I wouldn't or why my dept. doesn't if you'd like to read it, its in my last post, I believe on page 2 or 3.

  9. #49
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    I've come late to this party but would like to commend everyone who has taken part. There is a lot of good food for thought here.
    The thing that occurs to me with all the different tactics is that in each location they have evolved. Each different approach has over time fitted in to a package of different staffing, different building types, different expected reactions from the social groups at risk. e.g. long term residents,Owner occupied dwellings, transients, people with language difficulties, alcohol impairment, young, old and so on.
    A solution that works well in one location cannot just be holus bolus transplanted to another location and work well without adaption. In the same way people who believe they have nothing to learn do themselves and those they protect a disservice.
    A couple of things that we do differntly here in NZ is to connect the booster pump in series with the main pump manifold giving us a working pressure of 500 to 600psi on a flow of 45 US gallons per minute at the (elkhart) nozzle. The higher pressure reduces the droplet size and so increases the heat absorbtion capacity enormously compared to other lines.
    When we stretch layflat hose we use 75 foot lengths of two and three quarter inch hose to get the water to the area of the fire with a single 75 foot length of one and three quarter inch hose off the end for its manoeuverability. It gives you the benefit of the 1 3/4" at the sharp end without losing pressure most of the way there from the pump.
    Keep sharing those ideas

    Jim

  10. #50
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    Thanks to all who have replied...this thread has really brought out some interesting points...especially the whole booster line debate. (I think the booster is what my dept originally used when searching before we started to phase them out.)

    However there is an UPDATE!!

    My Depts. original policy that I mentioned in my first post has been modifided over the past week while I was on vacation.

    It was changed from the vauge: "2nd due company is responsible for Truck ops... & MUST take appropriately sized protection hoseline bla,bla... too...

    -"2nd Due Company is primarily responsible for search and under considerations it states that they "should strongly consider taking a hose line".

    Thereby leaving discression to the company officers and the situation at hand as opposed to creating an absolute requirement.

    Ineresting change and one that still leaves everyone happy.

    Thanks again to all the constructive posts out there.

    FTM-PTB

  11. #51
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Fred....

    Good job...perhaps your inquiry stimulated some behavioral modification.

    Question for you...are you deparment policies Standard Operating Procedures or Standard Operating Guidelines?
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  12. #52
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    captstanm1:

    They are called APGs or Administrative Policy Guidelines.

  13. #53
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Fred....

    I was just curious.... The fact that they say "Guidelines" offers the ability of the OIC to make discretionary decisions
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  14. #54
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    AMAZING!
    I just read most (not all) of the notes on this subject - the search of single family buildings.
    Whew!
    I wonder how much you all would write and think about as the buildings you respond to and larger in area; taller in height; differing in combustibility; increasing in life load; and eliminating (by height) simultaenous access points???
    We lose 80 percent of our total civilian life loss in America inside of private dwellings and they die in numbers of ONE and TWO average per incident.
    All areas that I teach in say (in one way or another), "Our basic fire experience is a one story private dwelling!"
    Now you think that we would be better at this experience in that it should be ROUTINE & SUCCESSFUL!
    No wonder some of us get confused under the smoke!
    K.I.S.S.

  15. #55
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    OH sorry brothers -
    What is a "Purple Hydrant Award"???????????

    (Please don't let it be for Injuries Received - please)

  16. #56
    IACOJ BOD FlyingKiwi's Avatar
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    111Truck

    I will let Capt Stan advise on his meritorious "Purple Hydrant" awards. Suffice to say they are for valour in the forums.

    While I agree with you that it should be "ROUTINE" each time, in relation to what the FF's are going to do. That can only occur where the station is used to dealing with these incidents on a regular basis, and/or drills for them regularly as well.

    As previously stated, as a National Fire Service our techniques and training are the same acros the whole country. I would be interested to see if any study exists within the USA to show death rates in NFPA compliant states verses non NFPA states.

    That might be an eye opener, as well as providing leverage for serious people to bring serious change.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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