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  1. #21
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    Thumbs up

    Well Said John!!!


  2. #22
    Forum Member scbaguy's Avatar
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    I think we have to realize that there are other ways to sense the heat of a fire and know when to leave, than to risk yur skin. We just have to learn something new. We have to attend a traing session and learn a new way rather than sit around the station and reley on old methods that have proven unsafe. My life, health and safety are worth a little time training to prevent injuries.

  3. #23
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Training and understanding fire behavior are certainly the key. You have to know your PPE and what it's limitations are and what the performance ratings are. Then you have to apply that to your training and recognize when you are in a "no win" situation before you get hurt. Sure...there are some unknowns that you can not prepare for. But we need to do all we can to protect ourself for sure.

    I am still reminded of the quote from an seasoned and well respected fire service leader that I used earlier in this thread.

    ..."Stan...I believe that we are at a point where we are overprotecting our people to the point that before they realize they are in trouble they are dead."
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  4. #24
    Forum Member HalliganHook25's Avatar
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    Ok...on a different tack then.
    As far as total protective gear goes, for those departments that wear hoods do you also get the highest layer of protection availible for turnout gear? For example, NFPA/OSHA require at least 38 tpu for gear. We wear the minimum tpus that the manufacturer of our gear will make - 41 tpu. This is also an important factor.

    You may have misunderstood my replys earlier. I am saying to the new guys as well as the old, that progression and use of technology is a good thing, but don't be blind about it. Try different things to see what works for you. Fires in non-windowed/non-vented compartmentalized concrete structures are not meant for 3/4 boots and no hoods. They are just too hot, probably too hot for a direct attack on the fire. However, in MY OPINION (nothing else) a bread and butter structure fire with a competent truck crew that aggressively vents the building, hoods are not needed or even necessarily a good idea.

    BTW - I have worn hoods before. People within my department wear hoods. They are not mandatory, nor are they prohibited. People are allowed to make their own decisions like the adults we all are.
    -----------
    If progressive equals houses burning to the ground, it's not progressive, it's stupid.

    Only a few more years until retirement!!!

  5. #25
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    My department does not issue hoods, members have purchased them on their own and that is alright with me. Remember that NFPA is a standard it is not law. Personally I have always choosen not to wear one. My collar and ear flaps with a velcro strap work just fine. It leaves just enough area for me to feel the heat around me. I feel that we have become over protected to a large extent. Training is a good idea but it is not the end all. You will run into situations that your training never covered, especially if you do not do live structure burns. You can't always see conditions inside the fire when making your attack, to leave a little open space will help you know how fast conditions are changing and you can act accordingly. I'm more inline with HalliganHook 25, but then again I'm a dinosaur, what do you expect

  6. #26
    Junior Member firegod911's Avatar
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    Cool WHAT ABOUT NOMEX UNDERWEAR?

    Having spent the first half of my career without a hood, I must say I have enjoyed the second half much more. While it was a hassle and uncomfortable in the beginning, I now find it second nature, and wouldn't don an SCBA without it.

    I have a friend who I teach with at the State Fire Academy. For years he did not wear a hood. Recently he went in to have hardened nodules surgically removed from both ears. His doctor told him it was from the constant heat.

    Blackleather - Your numbers are a little low. When the skin starts to blister it's a 2nd degree burn which actually begins at around 135 degrees F. 3rd degree burns (charring) can start as low as 158 degrees F. This is all pretty scary knowing that a ploycarb faceshield melts at around 350 degrees F. (A common occurance)

    HalliganHook25 - Of course you don't need a hood, what with the truck showing up after the engine crew has already tapped the fire. hahahaha

    Just a joke bud, from an old hose jockey.

    FG
    "Victorious warriors win first,
    and then go to war,
    while defeated warriors go to war first,
    and then seek to win."

    LAO TZU

  7. #27
    Junior Member firefighter598's Avatar
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    Wink

    I too have fought fire with and with out a hood. And I too enjoy fighting fires with the hood on. My first department did not issue bunker pants and hoods, the department that I am on now requires full PPE for even smoke checks, and other incidents. I would not think about going into a burning structure or fighting a car fire with out my hood.

    I will be the first one to complain about how hot it is on days like today when the tempature is in the 90's. But I would rather have the extra protection that all of my bunker gear offers rather than feel the pain of a burn again.

    Our department carries the safety another step in that before you enter a burning structure your partner checks you and you check him or her to make sure that not even one part of the skin is unprotected. I think that that is a lot better than the way we did things in the late 70's and early 80's.

    I too want to come home in one piece to my family every time I respond to a call
    Dave W. Butcher
    Firefighter
    Scottsbluff Fire Department

  8. #28
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    I aslo started before bunker pants and hoods etc. And I have also came out of many jobs with my hood around my neck but not my head ( old habits die hard ) but having recently visited my brothers in tampa burn center and seeing the melted gear they were wearing, including burnt hoods, melted face masks and scortched gear, my eyes have been opened. None of them had intended to be caught in a flashover, but it happened, and thank god they were all wearing all their gear including hoods.

  9. #29
    Forum Member dfd3dfd3's Avatar
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    I used to not wear my hood, for reasons everyone already knows about but I had 2 incidents very close to each other where i singed my ears pretty good. One was helping to do a live burn for a volunteer dept and another was on a house fire. After those I wear my hood now. I like to be aggressive so it helps me puch in alitte farther and faster than i would be able to w/o a hood on but I do have to be more aware of conditions because of that. Being overprotected is a def problem and u do have to be more aware of conditions.

  10. #30
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    This debate comes up every so often, it gets the same people in a uproar. Let me tell you how I feel. I am on a dept that does not issue hoods, and to tell you the truth, I have never seen anyone wearing a hood on my dept either. I do not see the need nor do I feel better protected wearing a hood. I feel more endangered wearing a hood then not. I used to work at the state fire academy where hoods are mandatory. The job I had was to lite the fires for the recruit class. We used to keep a temp gauge in the room at ceiling level, what I was seeing was bad examples for the recruits . We teach them to stay down, but they see us standing. You get a false sense of safety wearing a hood!

    I See alot of people from smaller depts posting there thought on this matter, alot of people who do not have all that much experience in fire situations. Alot of people post on there training experience only. I have read comments about a temp gauge on your coat how it changes colors, got a a question, how would you know, you can not see a damn thing!!!In a good smokey fire the only sense you have left is feel. You have to sight, no smell no taste. you take away your sense of feeling, then you are screwed. I like how people tell me to look at the ceilling and read the warning signs of flash over, it's ashame you can not see the tip of your face piece let alone the ceilling! the same people who tell you this learned that trick in the controled cement burn building. Here's a question for all the wear your hood or you are gonna die folks out there. How many firefighters are trapped in flash over today as compared to the 1970's? Anwser..the same!! only difference there were more fires in the 1970's.

    If you want to wear your hood, please do so and stay safe. I choose not to, I know my limits.
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  11. #31
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    "I like to be aggressive so it helps me puch in alitte farther and faster than i would be able to w/o a hood on but I do have to be more aware of conditions because of that."

    Dude....so very bad. Farther is not better, with this statement it is exactly why you do not wear a hood. I believe I read some where that the safe zone is less then 5 feet from the exit in case of flash over. You can survive if you can get out in less then 2 seconds. the Avg is 2.5 feet a second. Mr aggressive travels 10 feet, because with his hood and can be overly aggressive, the room flashes, he dies 5 feet from the door or window. But thats ok, he had his hood on. His buddy with him, not wearing a hood, feels the intense heat before flash over, retreats, makes it out with 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his ears, tells the rit team the Mr. Agressive is still in the room. Mr. No hood goes home in a few days sith scared ears, mr Agressive joins the heavenly fire dept. At my Age, I'll take the burnt ears to be with my wife and children.
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  12. #32
    Forum Member DixieFire53's Avatar
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    Talking

    HalliganHook25 I have been a Paid firefighter for 12 years in a relatively busy city. I have been in many Structure fires. I have been in some fires without a hood for reasons beyond my control. Even with your earflaps on your helmet down and your collar up you still get bare spots of skin. They have developed the hoods for a good reason. There are other way’s to tell the conditions of the fire. (Thermal layer, sings of a flash over,.and I could go one for a while) The hood is a product of developing technology, Such as the thermal imaging camera. We have a thermal imaging camera on every rescue truck in the city and at least one camera goes in on every fire. I am sure we could debate that peace of technology and find someone with a bad opinion on it. Not wearing a hood is the “old school”. With a well trained department wearing a hood is safer then not wearing one. But…..this is just my opinion!

    DixieFire53, Lt. E-12 FF/EMT-P, Local 272

  13. #33
    MembersZone Subscriber Tanker61's Avatar
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    Question Hoods

    I must live in a different world
    Wearing a hood has NEVER been an issue.
    Using your ears as a temp. guide is still
    the issue, but our discussions have been
    on which type of hood to wear. The 'old'
    hands insist on sock hoods, while the rest
    of us prefer the Clifford Reed hood made by
    Globe. Its like wearing PBI gear on your head.
    You can walk into a structure where before you
    had to crawl before.
    Same argument, different set of standards.
    Oh well
    He who says he has finished learning, needs to begin again.

    Go Houston Texans!

  14. #34
    Forum Member HalliganHook25's Avatar
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    I REALLLLLLLLLY hope you are kidding when you say you walk into a structure where before you had to crawl.

    This is EXACTLY why I disagree with hoods.
    Last edited by HalliganHook25; 09-07-2002 at 09:05 PM.
    -----------
    If progressive equals houses burning to the ground, it's not progressive, it's stupid.

    Only a few more years until retirement!!!

  15. #35
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    "You can walk into a structure where before you
    had to crawl before."

    Again...point is made. So where is the argument. With people like this we should Ban the hoods!
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  16. #36
    MembersZone Subscriber Tanker61's Avatar
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    Cool Hoods

    Didn't really mean to say 'walk'
    We can go in upright.
    If you 'walk' into a structure in our district,
    you generally trip over something if you
    don't have the thermal camera.
    We are trained and know just how far we
    can go in. However,someone who has never
    been into a structure with a hood has never
    remotely reached that point.
    Every progressive fire department in the
    Houston Metro area use this hood.
    I have never heard of anyone accidently
    going in too far. Its generally those who
    are bound and determined to join the melted
    face shield club. But even at that, they
    still don't cook their ears.
    We are very safety minded in our county.
    No tags or hoods and you don't go in.
    He who says he has finished learning, needs to begin again.

    Go Houston Texans!

  17. #37
    Forum Member HalliganHook25's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoods

    Originally posted by Ken61
    Didn't really mean to say 'walk'
    We can go in upright.
    And the difference is...........????????

    If you are standing up inside a fire, you either have some strange training down there or you are not doing it correctly.

    Of course, it's MY OPINION. But I am sure that my brother from Boston from earlier in the thread will agree, if no one else will.

    Stay Safe.
    -----------
    If progressive equals houses burning to the ground, it's not progressive, it's stupid.

    Only a few more years until retirement!!!

  18. #38
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    I second that pion Halligan.

    "I have never heard of anyone accidently
    going in too far. "

    Ken, Firefighters are getting in way over there heads all the time. We are so protected by our gear we do not FEEL the danger until it is to late.


    A few months back I was scanning the threads about a question that was asked from a New firefighter. He asked " when is it time to bail out?" One response hit me in the square in the head. A so called experienced firefighter from Utah told him he waits until the fire pushes him to belly crawl before he starts to think about bailing out. Come to find out, he posted his website on the profile, this guy's department runs 1 fire a year. Last year that 1 fire was a car fire. They did 14 calls all year.

    Moral of this story, there are morons out there that do not have a clue or the experience. Acording to this guy he would put himself in a bad position because his gear allowed him to. He would never have lasted as long as He say's he does if he does not wear a hood. Unless he's so brain damaged he can not tell he is getting cooked.
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  19. #39
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    We went through this argument down here, about 15 years ago. I can also remember the argument about not wearing SCBA's because we wouldn't know what type of material was burning. An "experienced" firefighter could smell the smoke and identify the products burning. They usually had burnt ears, too. The only time they wore their hoods was to keep their ears warm while they rode the tailboard or stood looking over the cab going down the road. I vote for the hood. Hey, but then again, I also wear my seatbelt!!

  20. #40
    Forum Member FireCapt1951retired's Avatar
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    BFD1071, HalliganHook 25

    I'm definately on your side with this one. We're getting to the point where we are so encapsulated that it has become dangerous. I keep hearing talk about signs of flashovers etc. In a lot of fires if proper ventilation techniques are done correctly your flashover posibilities dwindle considerably (good truck work). Your vision is usually nil to absolutely none upon entry into any good working fire, therefore you have a much harder time seeing conditions, your relying on your senses of feeling and hearing. I want to feel that heat, so I know when it's time to back out or slow my forward progression. I'm not waiting until I can feel it at floor level, thats to late and your rearend is going to be in a sling real quick. Maybe I should just stand up to feel the heat, NOT.

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