1. #26
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    Cool WHAT ABOUT NOMEX UNDERWEAR?

    Having spent the first half of my career without a hood, I must say I have enjoyed the second half much more. While it was a hassle and uncomfortable in the beginning, I now find it second nature, and wouldn't don an SCBA without it.

    I have a friend who I teach with at the State Fire Academy. For years he did not wear a hood. Recently he went in to have hardened nodules surgically removed from both ears. His doctor told him it was from the constant heat.

    Blackleather - Your numbers are a little low. When the skin starts to blister it's a 2nd degree burn which actually begins at around 135 degrees F. 3rd degree burns (charring) can start as low as 158 degrees F. This is all pretty scary knowing that a ploycarb faceshield melts at around 350 degrees F. (A common occurance)

    HalliganHook25 - Of course you don't need a hood, what with the truck showing up after the engine crew has already tapped the fire. hahahaha

    Just a joke bud, from an old hose jockey.

    FG
    "Victorious warriors win first,
    and then go to war,
    while defeated warriors go to war first,
    and then seek to win."

    LAO TZU

  2. #27
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    Wink

    I too have fought fire with and with out a hood. And I too enjoy fighting fires with the hood on. My first department did not issue bunker pants and hoods, the department that I am on now requires full PPE for even smoke checks, and other incidents. I would not think about going into a burning structure or fighting a car fire with out my hood.

    I will be the first one to complain about how hot it is on days like today when the tempature is in the 90's. But I would rather have the extra protection that all of my bunker gear offers rather than feel the pain of a burn again.

    Our department carries the safety another step in that before you enter a burning structure your partner checks you and you check him or her to make sure that not even one part of the skin is unprotected. I think that that is a lot better than the way we did things in the late 70's and early 80's.

    I too want to come home in one piece to my family every time I respond to a call
    Dave W. Butcher
    Firefighter
    Scottsbluff Fire Department

  3. #28
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    I aslo started before bunker pants and hoods etc. And I have also came out of many jobs with my hood around my neck but not my head ( old habits die hard ) but having recently visited my brothers in tampa burn center and seeing the melted gear they were wearing, including burnt hoods, melted face masks and scortched gear, my eyes have been opened. None of them had intended to be caught in a flashover, but it happened, and thank god they were all wearing all their gear including hoods.

  4. #29
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    I used to not wear my hood, for reasons everyone already knows about but I had 2 incidents very close to each other where i singed my ears pretty good. One was helping to do a live burn for a volunteer dept and another was on a house fire. After those I wear my hood now. I like to be aggressive so it helps me puch in alitte farther and faster than i would be able to w/o a hood on but I do have to be more aware of conditions because of that. Being overprotected is a def problem and u do have to be more aware of conditions.

  5. #30
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    This debate comes up every so often, it gets the same people in a uproar. Let me tell you how I feel. I am on a dept that does not issue hoods, and to tell you the truth, I have never seen anyone wearing a hood on my dept either. I do not see the need nor do I feel better protected wearing a hood. I feel more endangered wearing a hood then not. I used to work at the state fire academy where hoods are mandatory. The job I had was to lite the fires for the recruit class. We used to keep a temp gauge in the room at ceiling level, what I was seeing was bad examples for the recruits . We teach them to stay down, but they see us standing. You get a false sense of safety wearing a hood!

    I See alot of people from smaller depts posting there thought on this matter, alot of people who do not have all that much experience in fire situations. Alot of people post on there training experience only. I have read comments about a temp gauge on your coat how it changes colors, got a a question, how would you know, you can not see a damn thing!!!In a good smokey fire the only sense you have left is feel. You have to sight, no smell no taste. you take away your sense of feeling, then you are screwed. I like how people tell me to look at the ceilling and read the warning signs of flash over, it's ashame you can not see the tip of your face piece let alone the ceilling! the same people who tell you this learned that trick in the controled cement burn building. Here's a question for all the wear your hood or you are gonna die folks out there. How many firefighters are trapped in flash over today as compared to the 1970's? Anwser..the same!! only difference there were more fires in the 1970's.

    If you want to wear your hood, please do so and stay safe. I choose not to, I know my limits.
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  6. #31
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    "I like to be aggressive so it helps me puch in alitte farther and faster than i would be able to w/o a hood on but I do have to be more aware of conditions because of that."

    Dude....so very bad. Farther is not better, with this statement it is exactly why you do not wear a hood. I believe I read some where that the safe zone is less then 5 feet from the exit in case of flash over. You can survive if you can get out in less then 2 seconds. the Avg is 2.5 feet a second. Mr aggressive travels 10 feet, because with his hood and can be overly aggressive, the room flashes, he dies 5 feet from the door or window. But thats ok, he had his hood on. His buddy with him, not wearing a hood, feels the intense heat before flash over, retreats, makes it out with 2nd and 3rd degree burns to his ears, tells the rit team the Mr. Agressive is still in the room. Mr. No hood goes home in a few days sith scared ears, mr Agressive joins the heavenly fire dept. At my Age, I'll take the burnt ears to be with my wife and children.
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  7. #32
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    HalliganHook25 I have been a Paid firefighter for 12 years in a relatively busy city. I have been in many Structure fires. I have been in some fires without a hood for reasons beyond my control. Even with your earflaps on your helmet down and your collar up you still get bare spots of skin. They have developed the hoods for a good reason. There are other way’s to tell the conditions of the fire. (Thermal layer, sings of a flash over,.and I could go one for a while) The hood is a product of developing technology, Such as the thermal imaging camera. We have a thermal imaging camera on every rescue truck in the city and at least one camera goes in on every fire. I am sure we could debate that peace of technology and find someone with a bad opinion on it. Not wearing a hood is the “old school”. With a well trained department wearing a hood is safer then not wearing one. But…..this is just my opinion!

    DixieFire53, Deputy Fire Chief FF/EMT-P, Local 272

  8. #33
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    Question Hoods

    I must live in a different world
    Wearing a hood has NEVER been an issue.
    Using your ears as a temp. guide is still
    the issue, but our discussions have been
    on which type of hood to wear. The 'old'
    hands insist on sock hoods, while the rest
    of us prefer the Clifford Reed hood made by
    Globe. Its like wearing PBI gear on your head.
    You can walk into a structure where before you
    had to crawl before.
    Same argument, different set of standards.
    Oh well
    He who says he has finished learning, needs to begin again.

    Go Houston Texans!

  9. #34
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    I REALLLLLLLLLY hope you are kidding when you say you walk into a structure where before you had to crawl.

    This is EXACTLY why I disagree with hoods.
    Last edited by HalliganHook25; 09-07-2002 at 09:05 PM.
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    If progressive equals houses burning to the ground, it's not progressive, it's stupid.

    Only a few more years until retirement!!!

  10. #35
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    "You can walk into a structure where before you
    had to crawl before."

    Again...point is made. So where is the argument. With people like this we should Ban the hoods!
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  11. #36
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    Cool Hoods

    Didn't really mean to say 'walk'
    We can go in upright.
    If you 'walk' into a structure in our district,
    you generally trip over something if you
    don't have the thermal camera.
    We are trained and know just how far we
    can go in. However,someone who has never
    been into a structure with a hood has never
    remotely reached that point.
    Every progressive fire department in the
    Houston Metro area use this hood.
    I have never heard of anyone accidently
    going in too far. Its generally those who
    are bound and determined to join the melted
    face shield club. But even at that, they
    still don't cook their ears.
    We are very safety minded in our county.
    No tags or hoods and you don't go in.
    He who says he has finished learning, needs to begin again.

    Go Houston Texans!

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Hoods

    Originally posted by Ken61
    Didn't really mean to say 'walk'
    We can go in upright.
    And the difference is...........????????

    If you are standing up inside a fire, you either have some strange training down there or you are not doing it correctly.

    Of course, it's MY OPINION. But I am sure that my brother from Boston from earlier in the thread will agree, if no one else will.

    Stay Safe.
    -----------
    If progressive equals houses burning to the ground, it's not progressive, it's stupid.

    Only a few more years until retirement!!!

  13. #38
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    I second that pion Halligan.

    "I have never heard of anyone accidently
    going in too far. "

    Ken, Firefighters are getting in way over there heads all the time. We are so protected by our gear we do not FEEL the danger until it is to late.


    A few months back I was scanning the threads about a question that was asked from a New firefighter. He asked " when is it time to bail out?" One response hit me in the square in the head. A so called experienced firefighter from Utah told him he waits until the fire pushes him to belly crawl before he starts to think about bailing out. Come to find out, he posted his website on the profile, this guy's department runs 1 fire a year. Last year that 1 fire was a car fire. They did 14 calls all year.

    Moral of this story, there are morons out there that do not have a clue or the experience. Acording to this guy he would put himself in a bad position because his gear allowed him to. He would never have lasted as long as He say's he does if he does not wear a hood. Unless he's so brain damaged he can not tell he is getting cooked.
    ** The opionions are mine and mine alone, they are not that of my dept or the local**

  14. #39
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    We went through this argument down here, about 15 years ago. I can also remember the argument about not wearing SCBA's because we wouldn't know what type of material was burning. An "experienced" firefighter could smell the smoke and identify the products burning. They usually had burnt ears, too. The only time they wore their hoods was to keep their ears warm while they rode the tailboard or stood looking over the cab going down the road. I vote for the hood. Hey, but then again, I also wear my seatbelt!!

  15. #40
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    BFD1071, HalliganHook 25

    I'm definately on your side with this one. We're getting to the point where we are so encapsulated that it has become dangerous. I keep hearing talk about signs of flashovers etc. In a lot of fires if proper ventilation techniques are done correctly your flashover posibilities dwindle considerably (good truck work). Your vision is usually nil to absolutely none upon entry into any good working fire, therefore you have a much harder time seeing conditions, your relying on your senses of feeling and hearing. I want to feel that heat, so I know when it's time to back out or slow my forward progression. I'm not waiting until I can feel it at floor level, thats to late and your rearend is going to be in a sling real quick. Maybe I should just stand up to feel the heat, NOT.

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    jedimike:

    Don't waste your time with nomex. Check out he Reed hood by Globe.

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    Hoods were NOT designed for us to be able to go deeper in the structure, they were designed to protect us better. I believe the problem to be is that some people think that they can go deeper in the structure because of these hoods, the hoods are insurance. Yea you can go deeper into a structure with a hood on, Just like seat belts, just cause you wear your seat belt doesn't mean you can drive the car faster, it means that in case you do get in an accident you have better chance of living. Same thing with hoods.

    Like one person said that you can stand up with the red hoods, well sure you can, dont use your gear to the limits cause if something goes wrong then your gear will fail and you wont have time to get out, it will stand up to this torment so that when things do turn bad then you have time to get out. You want to keep that buffer zone just in case.

    Hood or no hood, I think it should be a personal choice, some people came up and learned how to fight fire that way, and that is fine use. your head, pay attention, and get some.

    Peace out.

  18. #43
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    You're right ggtruckie. Hood or no hood, its a personal choice. (If you take NFPA out of the picture) I respect your opinion, whichever it is. For those that choose no hood (or even a sock hood), you'd better have that doorway blocked well, cause the boyz in the hood will run right over you and put out your fire! Seen it happen.

    No hood:
    Sock hood:
    Reed hood:

  19. #44
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    I am a hood man myself. I have been there without a hood and with it. Like Stan said I don't like using my ears and neck for thermometers.

    There is no dress rehersal in life.

    Be safe everyone.

    Matt

  20. #45
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    I think some of us are saying the same things, but comming from different directions about it.
    As has been stated before, there are always 'veterans' with only training fires, or car fires, or they work in a slow department that sees a couple hundred calls ayear. I think these guys start as many of the "which is better" threads as they chime in on.

    HalliganHook, Mikey, Firstin, GGtruckie, we are all danceing around the same issue: TRAINING and EXPERIENCE.

    Older guys who learned to use their ears have a valid reason to not were hoods. They were trained that way, and have experience with that use to back it up. They use their traing and experience to fight fire and no how the fire is progressing, and get a 'feel' of when it's time to pull back.

    Newer guys have been trained while useing the "fully encapsulateing" gear includeing hoods. They have been taught the limitations of thier gear, and it's drawbacks. They have also been taught ways to replace the drawbacks of their gear. they have worn their hoods and have experience with fighting fire without 'feeling' the heat on their ears, but watching the ceiling, hearing the fire, and feeling the relative heat through the mask and coat.

    It really amounts to the same thing! What both camps have in common is they are useing their training and experience to do what they do.
    If we are talking about the same level of trainging, and the same level of experience (with whichever meathod you use), it's not which one is better, but which do you prefer.

    Personally, I have seen and felt the difference and I will take the hoods, and use the other methods I have learned to keep me from getting to far in. Halligan, I suspect you will use the ears. Neither of us is 'better' than the other, we just do things differently.
    I think we owe it to those that have come after us to have them use what ever training they have, and not just copy what the old guy does. The 'Old Guy' can do things that would get the newbie hurt, because he has the experience to back it up.
    The best thing for newbies would be to force them to wear hoods, or put them on the truck, that way us hosers would have the fire out by the time they get in.

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    To qualify my statements, Im not someone that just has book experience or whatever or am on a dept that only runs a couple hundered calls a yr. On avg I prob go on around 40 structural fires a year. I dont know everythig but i do know a lil based on my actual experience. There are fires when u know u are goin to take a beating and u have to be aggresive, wearing a hood alows me to be more aggresive when i need to be. Thats what i was getting at.
    Last edited by dfd3dfd3; 09-09-2002 at 10:05 AM.

  22. #47
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    Originally posted by captstanm1

    I am still reminded of the quote from an seasoned and well respected fire service leader that I used earlier in this thread.

    ..."Stan...I believe that we are at a point where we are overprotecting our people to the point that before they realize they are in trouble they are dead."

    Are we overprotecting them or undertraining them? Perhaps if they were better trained, they wouldn't get into trouble?
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

  23. #48
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    Thumbs down

    NFPA standards require the use of full PPE at all structure fires. Common sense requires the same. The equipment is designed to protect you. How you use it determines if it really does. I have been inside working fires and had conditions change so rapidly that if I had not worn my hood I would have been badly burned. You never know when a window will blow out(or be broken by some ambitous pup with a pike pole)and give the fire the extra O2 it needs to take off. Too much protection is an oxymoron. However, if beeing too protected is a concern, I would suggest you focus more effort on training your people to discern the signs of incipent flashover than permitting them to remove safety gear.
    There are tools on the market to detect the conditions changing...heck, there are gizmo's for everything - Thermal imaging camera's with gradient heat sensors, coats that change colors, I've even seen a coat that goes into audible Alarm, when exposed to too much heat(past issue of American Heat).
    All of those are tools to be used, but remember that your people are only as good as you train them. I would recommend wearing your full gear at all times, but recognize its limiations and train, train, train your people around those limitations. Don't remove PPE to stay safe, teach your people how to function with Full PPE so they are safe.

    I'm lincesed to practice law in Pennsylvania, and no where else so I cannot comment on other states laws, however, I'd recommend you Check with your workers comp carrier or department lawyer to see if this activity risks your coverage. Some Insurance companies could deny your claim if full PPE is not worn and an injury occurs. That is a possiblity under PA law. Depending upon your states laws, you could also be potentially exposing your fire dept to potential civil liability for ...failure to supervise... failure to train...etc., if you permit that kind of conduct to contine. Talk to your dept lawyer to get an opinion on this matter under your state law if this is going to be a common practice.

    That's my two cents for what's it worth.

  24. #49
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    When you're wearing your hoods, do you still wrap your neck collar around, fastened and raised? Do you still pull your earflaps down? If so, good. If not, sorry, not "NFPA compliant". I have seen too many guys say they don't need to use the ear flaps and neck collars since they have hoods on.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Remember - NFPA does not equal law. Only OSHA is law, and even then, only when the state has adopted an OSHA administration.

    Also, as far as training goes, we still train our new kids without hoods. From what I have seen, the only ones that wear hoods are laterals from other smaller departments who were not taught the "no-hood" technique to begin with, and who buy their own.
    -----------
    If progressive equals houses burning to the ground, it's not progressive, it's stupid.

    Only a few more years until retirement!!!

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