View Poll Results: Were you successful? Did Rescue101 or billy pick up on any errors you made?!
- 6. You may not vote on this poll
Rescue101 and billy, Who the hell are they?
Anything they can do, I can do better!
Multiple Choice Poll.
09-06-2002, 10:38 PM #1
Oh No- Not Another Truck vs. Car Scenario!!!
Allright, allright you lot! Listen Up!
We've had heaps of time to practice our BRR rescue with the following threads:-
Truck Vs. Utility
Another What Would You Do?
BIG RIG RESCUE Offered
The Ultimate What Would You Do?
Now, don't tell Rescue 101 or billy, but I found this single picture on the net and thought I'd post it here and see if we can perform a succesful BIG RIG RESCUE without those two picking up our faults and mistakes!
Have a go at it while I go and distract them....Luke
09-06-2002, 10:46 PM #2
Rescue?! That looks more like recovery to me.Steve
Proud member of the IACOJ
"I've got no respect for any young man who won't join the colors."
~Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, CSA
09-07-2002, 12:18 AM #3call the coroner.Rescue?! That looks more like recovery to me.
We do! Give it a go...Luke
09-07-2002, 12:08 PM #4
- Join Date
- Sep 1999
- On the way to the station. Really. It's 12 kilometers away and there's traffic.
Well... from this photo, about the only identifiable bit on the smaller vehicle is the rims on those tires. I recognize them as the factory rims on a Ford F-series pickup truck. Hopefully that means we're looking at a lower number of patients (than, say, if it was a 15-passenger van or a carload of kids or something).
My size-up would tell me to 'search' inside that vehicle during the inner and outer circles to see if there were any viable patients. It's hard to see from this angle but it looks like it might be an extended cab (I think I can see the leading edge of the "third door", just "behind" the left front wheel of the pickup and below the leading edge of the semi-trailer) with a decent opening to look into.
From this angle it looks like the driver's door of the semi was either forced open or deformed open by the crash. I can't see any windshields, or patients, but the cab is intact enough to reasonably assume the driver and any passengers are, if not already out, viable candidates for rescue. Getting people out of there would be relatively easy - although it might need anything from a stepladder to scaffolding.
Having said all that, this is what I would do with the resources from MY department. (This assumes that sources of ignition, fuel leaks, etc etc etc, have already been dealt with.)
First and foremost, call for Heavy Rescue from the city. This is their technical rescue/USAR/etc rig with specialized equipment and training.
Call for a big rig towtruck. They often take some time to arrive at scene, and judging by the situation we have here, I could probably use them as early as possible for lifting.
Use what shoring we have to stabilize the semi on the right side. It doesn't seem to be right on top of the Ford, and the right side looks to be hanging over into "space". Maybe even use a come-along or chain to anchor off the left side of the cab to some hard point as well. Also box-crib or otherwise shore up the corner of the semi that's hanging over (the front right).
If it's possible, I'd try to remove the trailer from the equation. This may have to wait until a heavy wrecker is on scene.
From the looks of things, I think the front axle of the Ford is actually touching the ground, so I don't think there's any use for further "stabilization".
I'd feel most safe working from the driver (left) side of the Ford during this extrication - and with what I did above, I probably have too much cribbing/shoring in the way on the right side anyway. From what I can see from the photo, the firewall and A-pillar are pretty much straight up and down in line with the front left wheel so we may have a rather large opening already.
There looks to be enough room over the left side of the Ford that some spreading and maybe even a (VERY) partial roof removal could be done. Obviously making the opening as large as possible is high on the list.
When #9 Heavy Rescue gets on scene, they'd probably put their heavy lifting bags and such into action, as suggested earlier in the thread. At this point I'd defer to their higher level of training and experience, and assist them in the remainder of the extrication.
That's all considering there's a salvageable patient in the Ford. If it's a total recovery, time is no longer of the essence - waiting for the heavy wrecker to crane off the semi-cab is probably warranted, and then we can spread and cut the Ford right in half if we need to.
09-08-2002, 04:35 AM #5
I'm a hunting for some 101's and billy's....
1. Call for 1x Heavy Salvage Tow Truck and 1x Standard Recovery Tow Truck.
2. Box crib the bogie so as it doesn't sink any lower for any reason.
3. Check bogie- is it empty or is it full? Is it HAZMAT?
4. Stabilise under-ride vehicle as best as possible.
5. Box crib and stabilise prime mover as best as possble.
6. Ensure occupants are out of the cabin of the prime mover. I'm going out on a limb and am going to assume that they are not injured or are very minor injuries.
7. Block the fifth wheel on the prime mover as per previous discussions in other posts. (It has already pivoted up in the air a fair bit- we want to eliminate that pivoting any higher, making our job harder.)
8. Bring in the Heavy Salvage Tow Truck onto the left hand side of the picture and chain it to lift.
9. Bring in the other Tow Truck from the front of the under-ride vehicle and chain the vehicle for a pull.
10. Remove stabilisation from under the under-ride vehicle.
11. Using the Heavy Salveage Tow Truck, I'm going to lift the prime mover. This will cause the prime mover and the bogie to lift. (Because we've blocked the fifth wheel eliminating the pivot action.)
12. Once clear, we're going to wich out the under-ride vehicle and commence extrication via normal means.
Here 101, here boy! billy, billy,billy? Where are you?
How have we gone so far?Luke
09-08-2002, 09:43 PM #6
Hello bozo(LUTAN),I was in Concord,REMEMBER?First question,what do you guys think you're going to bag here?Truck on top too far ahead on little truck to use bags.Now if you had a 10' header it might be another story.Now for you non believers,I don't know if we had viable patients here,but step one is WHAT"S IN THE BIG TRUCK?Two,I don't think that ANYONE here will disagree that to do an efficient extrication on the little truck we need to separate them.Three using a heavy hydraulic tow truck with a preferably certified operator lift the road tractor and remove the pickup.Separate the truck and trailer,WHY?Remember our previous discussions?If you do not know TT units fluently you never what?SEPARATE THEM.I had a good level of confidence going into the Concord training.I came out with increased confidence.An awesome program that I HIGHLY RECOMMEND ALL FIRE RESCUE personnel involved in extrication take.It's a real eye opener! Oh and by the way,this is a override.T.C.`
Last edited by Rescue101; 09-08-2002 at 09:48 PM.
09-09-2002, 09:55 AM #7
Looking at the picture, it looks like the truck has already separated from the trailer. Notice how the truck is more to the side of the ?pickup? and the trailer appears to be more in-line with the ?pickup? How would that affect the big rig lifting?"This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
09-09-2002, 10:44 AM #8
Good eye Bones,but look again particularly at the lower edge of the trailer.I believe they're still hooked,but what you're looking at is a long framed tractor that's leaning toward the ditch side of the road.How would a separation affect lifting?,makes it a bit more of a pain but still easily doable.With the trailer still hooked you can actually "boom out"and push the entire rig backwards a bit making it easier to remove the PU.My lil'upside down buddy has got it pretty close,he just likes to work too hard.Again the Big Rig Rescue class is a tool you really need in your "toolbox",makes these jobs a whole lot less intimidating.Gotta go there to be a believer.I've ALWAYS been a believer,but now I've "bought in". T.C.
09-09-2002, 11:16 AM #9
101 - I am a believer in the calling of a HD Tow to lift the truck however looking at this photo does generate one question. I originally had the same thought as Bones with the tractor and the trailer seperated or more importantly PARTIALLY seperated. My question to you is how would you handle a partial seperation due to impact damage. I would not feel comfortable blocking the 5th wheel and lifting this thing if I didn't have complete confidence in the marriage of the two parts. How can we improve a weakened joint of tractor and trailer so that we can move it as one?
Oh and to anyone out there, this things a mess but best I can tell from the photo this looks like a head-on for the pickup?? and the T/T following behind failed to stop and over-ran the rear of the pickup? Anyone agree?????
09-09-2002, 12:04 PM #10
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
depending on the location of your pt is it posible to chain the tractor to pick-up and then stabilize as one unit? could you gain enough access from the drivers side if there is only one pt? just some ideas.
09-09-2002, 05:15 PM #11
FFT,only three things will cause a correctly coupled TT to separate.One,shucking all the teeth off the fifth wheel adjuster plate or breaking the two big pins in the plate.Two,breaking the mounting bolts out of the frame.Three, some DUMB A** pulled the wheel release lever.Next question for the other inquiry(not posted by you)is why would you want to chain 'em together when YOU ARE TRYING TO SEPARATE THEM?Kinda defeats the purpose.Block it,chock it,and lift it.Lets say the fifth wheel does something completely out of character and does break during the lift.It will slide off the back of the tractor.The lift is so gentle that you probably wouldn't even know it happened outside of the noise it will make.The load still lifts and the rescue is still made.T.C.
09-09-2002, 06:41 PM #12
Hey 101, I would've loved to be at the BRR training, but I guess my ticket got lost in the mail....Luke
09-09-2002, 10:42 PM #13
Hey Luke,you ever hear the expression down but not out?Had it not been nearby I'd have missed it too.Now instead of P**ing in your beer,pay attention!For less than the price of a ticket on albatross express,you ARE being schooled.Granted it's going to take me about 6 months to teach you what I learned in two days(You opinionated lil'Aussie),and unless you change your attitude it may take a dite longer.I tryed to get a ups label for ya,but they said the price of insuring your a@* would preclude my meager budget from making it happen.So it's back to me explaining,and you tellin' me I wouldn't do it that way.Well ya can't have it both ways.By the way,I believe Master Billy is popping by in a bit to yank your green belt a bit tighter. T.C.
09-10-2002, 12:24 PM #14
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
if this was a rescue in our area it could take up to 45 min before heavy tow trucks could respond. aprox 15 to 20 for the next dept. to arive with air bags. so my question is would it be possible to extracate with out seperating the two?
09-10-2002, 01:18 PM #15
Possible?Of course!Labor intensive?Extremely!Next would you please indicate to me how you plan to airbag this job.I'm very interested in how you would place the bags,what you would push on etc.I didn't think you could get that far from anywhere in Iowa.There is fifty different ways to do this job,let's hear some of them.T.C.
09-10-2002, 01:29 PM #16
Couple of winches and high lift airbags under the trailer and roll the whole rig over onto passenger side? Gives access to the vehicle, but makes a mess trying to move tractor trailer later."This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?
09-10-2002, 02:43 PM #17
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
my first thought was to use 4x4 box crib then low pressure high lift bags just to stabilize at the rear of the tractor. possibly 6' post on the pasenger side at a 45. after looking at the picture again I now see the tractor is further on top of the cab than I first thought. but by keeping the two together and secure is there enough room to work thru the drivers side door and A post? I understand the need to keep every thing cribbed especialy the truck. my hope was to keep it simple and not lose to much time
09-10-2002, 03:43 PM #18
Back up and take another LONG look at the picture.My visions jaded but I don't see a box crib happening here unless you use a header.There is also a lot of jagged metal on this one that could cause you problems with your airbags even with protective matting.If you look carefully at the picture you'll see the tractors tandems are still behind the pu's back bumper but so tight I don't think you have any bag space here either.Some airshores or similar would be a help on this one.It will sit there all day until you start messin' with the pu then anything goes.I'm still waiting on the ones who think they're better than Billy & me to step up to the plate and solve the scenerio.Lots of good ideas coming out,let's work this one a bit more.Don't want to disappoint my resident upside down PITA,Lutan.
Last edited by Rescue101; 09-10-2002 at 03:45 PM.
03-29-2005, 06:08 PM #19
I've bumped this up given the interest in Big Rig Rescue of late on the forums....Luke
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