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    Default Guard-Rail Passenger?

    Check this out!

    Here is a recent MVA I was on where a young man hit a guardrail doing about 75mph. He took out about 60feet of guardrail and in doing so the rail end coiled in the cab of the car with two rail posts still attached. Ironically the rail also kept him and his vehicle from rolling down a 200 foot embankment. The coil hooked his car like a fish hook. We kept hunting for his friend he was mumbling about down the embankment up in the trees. After combing the area and using our Thermal Imager we found Nothing. His Friend ended up at home safe.

    Here is the first Photo:
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    Default Photo number two

    Here the inside of the cab:
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    Here's a photo of one we responded to about 9 years ago.

    The drunk driver came down a hill, lost it on the bend and went straight into the railing. He managed to duck down at the time of impact and the rail punched through the front windscreen, flew over his head and out the back window.

    It's hard to see in the photo, but the railing hangs out the back window about 3 metres. The rear wheels are lifted off the ground by the angle of the railing.

    We got him out, then had to cut the railing to remove the car...

    Very lucky!
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    Luke,
    That pic of yours reminded me of this one I was on about fifteen years back. The fence rail channeled his cheek and took his right ear off. Lucky he wasn't a little more to the right.
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    Guardrail Incident with a Teaching Point:

    4-door sedan, skids sideways, crashes into the end of a steel highway guardrail at high speed.

    Guardrail actually folds in half, making it two guardrails thick.

    Double rail end penetrates into driver's compartment just in front of A-pillar.

    People trapped.
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    FD completes a total sidewall removal.

    Double guardrail has entered driver's footwell area.
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    Interior close-up view shows that steel penetrated across footwell area to the center hump.

    Trapped driver is extricated.

    Rail passed above and over driver's left leg. Her right leg though has been completely amputated at the bottom of the knee cap.
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    After patient extrication, FD used abrasive saw to sever both steel guardrails to allow the vehicle to be winched off the rail. Cut left about four feet of rail stuck to the vehicle.

    Teaching Point:

    If this rail had to be cut as part of a 'live' patient extrication, what tools do you have to cut the steel?

    Recip saw... forget it!

    Air chisel...I don't think so.

    Power cutters... probably not.

    What's that leave you?

    Time to find out is now. Get a section from your local highway department and find out what capability you have to deal with this heavy-guage steel.
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    Ron,

    We actually discussed this at the scene of our Incident because we were not sure if the tow vehicle could "PULL" it off of the guardrail. If not we decided to take the roof of the car which would have freed up the rail and car.

    But your incident you displayed would have made that plan NEARLY impossible (with the patient out) and NOT an option with a patient still trapped.

    Our department has a "utility" truck (18 miles away) with a cutting torch on board. It (the truck)is not intended for emergency responses but it would be a thought of mine given this scenario. Our only circular/cut-off/K-12 saw is on the Truck Company (17 miles away).

    Another discussion we had at the scene of our MVA was to separate the section at the rivets. Leaving a shorter section in the car. But this still doesn't remove the section form the car.

    I can't help but thinking too about the HEAT transfer down the rail if we were to get closer to a LIVE victim.

    I am going to work on this one some more and get back to here. I have friends in the Biz of cuttin. "I'll be back".


    JW
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    OOOH! OOOH! I've got one too! You'll have to click on the link because I don't know how to post pictures, but mine has a teaching point as well.

    Car vs. Guardrail -- Guardrail Wins

    Driver loses control and slides sideways into guardrail. The guardrail stays intact, but the concrete footing at the end uproots with the force of the impact, and the rear of the car comes to rest on it.

    Driver self extricates with only minor cuts and bruises before FD/EMS arrival.

    It's difficult to tell from these pictures, but the guardrail penetrated at the rear driver's side door and protruded into the side of the driver's seat, pushing it forward. Two more inches and this victim would probably have been a fatality.

    Approaching from the driver's side, you could walk right up to the window and were actually looking down into the car. Approaching from the passenger's side, however, you were standing in a concrete drainage ditch, and the floorboard of the car was over seven feet off of the ground.

    IF this patient had needed extrication, we were presented with three serious problems:

    1) The stability of the concrete footing and the problem of immobilizing it.
    2) Patient access from the passenger's side, due to the height above ground.
    3) The fact that the guardrail was still intact, and may need to be cut. Besides the problems of cutting it, there was a chance that cutting the guardrail could affect the stability of the car and the concrete footing.

    That, and there was gasoline running freely from the fuel tank...

    Any thoughts?
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    Lightbulb

    silver, nice pics. are those mosquitos in the background?

    that is a thought i'll have to look into. i don't know what we would cut a guardrail off with. a cutting torch would probably be the best i could offer or even a plasma torch.
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    Ron, I've hard a few people on these forums talk about an exothermic torch (?). Would that have worked? I believe it has minimal heat transfer when used, but I don't know much about them- never seen or used one. Have you?

    We'd have used the disc cutter as per your pics.

    Nice pics Silver! Looked like an interesting job...
    Luke

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    But you have the heat transfer issue.
    Can we simply put a small fog pattern between the cut and victim to reduce the heat transfer? Don't have cutting torches on any of our rigs, but have a few welding shops along the docks that we could borrow tools (and operators) from.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Food for thought, Bones.

    I've got a mate who is a panel beater and he puts wet rags around the areas he is going to use oxy torches on when doing panel repairs. This stops the buckling of the panel and heat transfer, I beleive.

    Maybe a fog will assist.
    Luke

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    We could probably have a cutting torch setup on scene pretty quick too, as many of our volunteers have them at home.

    I think the fog pattern would work very well to cool the metal and stop the heat transfer along the rail.

    Are we sure power cutters wouldn't work? In our situation, had we needed to cut the rail, I don't know how wise it would have been to use a torch. There was plenty of gasoline running from the tank. Guess we could have deployed a line to fog the gasoline leak during the cut...seems a little risky.

    And Ryan, they sure could've been mosquitoes, we've got plenty of 'em here in Oklahoma!
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

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    We carry a rotary saw, gas cutting torch, and an exothermic torch. Any of the three could do the job. However, the exothermic will work in a water fog (even underwater!), and will be the fastest by far. Cutting a standard guardrail takes about 10 seconds.

    Tim
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    Rescue42,

    10 seconds? for a guardrail? I knew the exotherms were good but Wow

    Have you used it on an MVA before? Or just in training?

    Lutan, good idea about layin the rags across the rail, as was the suggestion of a "fog" pattern between the cutting and the patient. That in conjunction with a precautionary line would be a good idea. (It is in fact a good idea for most complex MVA evolutions)

    By the way bro's I have just acquired (yesterday) a supply of guardrail sections for training purposes, and I plan on posting my results (with photo's) within a relatively short period of time.

    Our Deaprtment however does NOT have an exothermic torch, just an Oxy-acetylene torch. I will sniff around here for an exotherm to borrow for the training session(s).

    C-ya soon

    JW
    "Making Sense with Common Sense"
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    My choices in order.Exothermic torch,Oxy acetelyne cutting torch,K-12,Recip saw with torch blade.Only problem with the first three is they all produce "fire" which around a crash isn't always a good thing.In reference to a tow vehicle removing the wreck without cutting,no problem,if it went on it will winch off.Problem is the guardrail can make the "winchoff"a bit unpredictable,if I were to utilize the procedure to make space for the patient I would want a VERY experienced operator with a background and training in HEAVY RESCUE.I think I know where Ron is coming from on the Recips,though I have cut rails with them.The only other thing that comes to mind is that most guardrails are Galvanized which makes them a bit nasty to cut with a cutting torch,zinc flys everywhere!T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 09-27-2002 at 09:31 AM.

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    If you used a K12 shouldn't you apply a fog to ensure the blade doesn't overheat anyway?

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    Something to consider when cutting anything galvanized. Inhalation of the gases created during these operations are toxic, and frequently cause chemical pneumonitis. I've seen this several times, and experienced it once during non-rescue situations. It is not an enjoyable experience, but one not quickly forgotten.
    Steve Gallagher
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    Steamer, i was going to ask about that. I thought i remembered something from shop days about not welding on galvanized steel since it made toxic fumes. I like the idea of the wet rags also. It is funny that ISO recommends an oxy-acetalyne (sp) torch on the engine. Don't think they had it in mind for MVCs.
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