Thread: Aerial Help

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    Question Aerial Help

    Help.... We want a 100' ladder (not platform), but have a overall height issue of 11'2" max. I am looking for overall travel heights for 100' ladders with pumps and tanks. 500 gallons of water and a 1500 gpm would be nice. Any pictures, drawings or specs of these types of trucks would be greatly appriciated. I think Seagrave makes a low profile 100' aerial, but has many restrictions?

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    Talking rear mount

    It also has to be a rear mount.......

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    You don't like to do things easy, do you?

    In 2000, we spec'd a maximum height of 140" (11', 8")

    Of five bidders, one didn't make it...and they knew they were overheight submitting the bid, go figure. And you would like us to buy a truck that won't fit in the station because?

    Two came in at 140", one at 135", one at 136"

    You need 132", that's pretty close for a builder who wants to sharpen their pencils.

    The main item I remember from discussing this is you get into cramp angle issues with the trucks -- as they drop the cabs lower on the chassis to accomodate the lower overall height, the tires don't have as much space to turn.

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    Our tower is also 11'8". It is from KME and we had to get the cab a little shorter to get that hight. They might have a stick that is shorter but I doubt it.
    "What makes a person run into a building others are running out of?...Character."- Dennis Smith

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    100' aerial, with pump and tank ideally, to fit a low door...........Hmmmmm. Who makes one of those? I don't like to admit it and I will probably regret this but, Sutphen makes a 104' mid mount aerial that is 9' 8.5" high and does have quint options if desired by the customer. Just my thoughts.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Yes Seagrave does make a low-profile ladder. We have one a 1995 Patriot LP-100, 100'ft main, rear mount, overall height is 10'- 6" we don't have a pump and tank on it, if you look at the web site and see the low-profile ladder with the pump the only difference is that we have a large double door compartment instead.


    Also here's the web page for that style of ladder from Seagrave

    Patriot 100 web site
    http://www.seagrave.com/Products/Aer...__patriot.html

    Patriot 75 web site, this truck is simular to what we have but with a 100ft ladder

    http://www.seagrave.com/Products/Aer...__patriot.html
    Last edited by NJTF1Bowman; 09-19-2002 at 10:01 PM.

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    Default Aerial help

    WE have a 1999 Seagrave 100 ft. rearmount aerial, 200 Gal. Booster tank with a 1000 gpm pump on a single rear axle. Low profile under 10 Ft. Seagrave was the only one to bid on this at the time. E - One salesman said that they would be building a low profile in the future.

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    Lightbulb Interesting

    Thanks for the info. I would imagine that the overall height will raise when a water tank and pump is installed due to the additional axle and tire size? Any additional info would be appriciated. Otherwise is the 1995 Patriot LP-100 a solid ladder?

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    mnfireguy,

    Boy oh boy do you have some tough requirements. Chicago has some low profile rearmounts because of their old houses. I think they were made from E-One. Also Smeal makes some low profile rearmounts for St. Louis for the same reasons as Chicago...low apparatus doors. However it is a custom design and to the best of my knowledge are not in their off the floor models. (so to speak)

    For 500 gallons you are more than likely looking at a dual-rear axles. While I know E-One can do single axles with less water it might not be possible with anyone, you'd just have to ask them.

    One thing though...in order to get your height... 11'2" is pretty short; you might have to give-up the pre-piped waterway. But then again there might be a manufacturer who can do it.

    I do have one question though just to satisfy my own curiosity. Why does it have to be a rearmount? Since the most important requirement for you is obvioulsy the height; a mid-mount or a TDA might be a more viable option while still providing all the other requirements as well. I'm sure there is a good reason...but I just thought I'd ask. Good luck with your specs.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 09-20-2002 at 03:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Interesting

    Originally posted by mnfireguy
    Thanks for the info. I would imagine that the overall height will raise when a water tank and pump is installed due to the additional axle and tire size? Any additional info would be appriciated. Otherwise is the 1995 Patriot LP-100 a solid ladder?
    Nope, We had two demo trucks in station both with pumps and tanks one had the single axle the other dual axle no difference in height at all. The 1995 Patriot LP-100 has been a great truck so far with no major problems, The only thing that we would do different if we could would be go with the larger engine, we went with the V6 Turbo (6V92/TA) instead of the V8 Turbo the only differnce is the cooling for the engine in which that we would of lost the bench seat in the cab (cooling tunnel between driver and officer) But right after we received the truck Seagrave stopped making it with the 6V92/TA in favour of the V8.


    If you look at the web site for the Patriot 75' take a look at the one shown it looks just like ours both we have the 4 section 100ft Main and inplace of the pump there is a double door pass-thru compartment.


    Robert B.
    Haddon Fire Company No.1
    http://www.haddonfirecompany.org
    Last edited by NJTF1Bowman; 09-20-2002 at 07:06 PM.

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    Talking Money

    The mid mount aerial was over the budget. Go figure. One interesting point that NJ-TF1 brought up is that the engine has small HP. I would imagine the smaller HP engine is lighter than a Series 60 engine with the larger 4060HD tranny. This would alow the use of a smaller front axle and tire, making the overall height not as tall. The water tank and pump would also effect the axle weights? Thanks for all the help from those that have replyed to this post. It has become kinda a mission to me to find out if a truck like this is out in-service.

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    Just curious about what budget the mid mount came in at??

    We have a 1999 Sutphen 95' Tower, 500 HP Detriot, 2000 GPM pump, 400 gal water, 1000' of 5" LDH, extended cab, 12.5Kw genterator, light tower, etc. Pretty much loaded with everything you are looking for. The overall height is 11'-4", which could easily be down to where you need if you got rid of the high rail on the boom. The truck was well under $700,000 when we purchased it. The other plus is that the truck loaded with equipment is under 65,000 lbs total weight. When we were specing this rig, no one else could meet our pump/water tank/ hose load requirements.

    BTW: I know ours has a bucket, but I would think that the 104' ladder that Sutphen makes is available with similar options.
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    Angry Money

    The bucket would be nice but with a budget under $550,000 not real possible. Thanks for the info though....

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    Default Re: Money

    Originally posted by mnfireguy
    The bucket would be nice but with a budget under $550,000 not real possible. Thanks for the info though....
    Good Luck getting what you want for under $550,000, its going to be a difficult task.
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    Default Re: Money

    Originally posted by mnfireguy
    The bucket would be nice but with a budget under $550,000 not real possible. Thanks for the info though....

    The price on our 95' Seagrave was $450,000 with a few extras

    As for the HP on the engine at that time Seagrave was making it with the Detriot 6V92/TA & Detriot 8V92/TA engines, on the two demos we looked at they both had the 8V92 in them with really no difference in wheel height. Now I guess the can put in a series 60 Detriot more than enough room in the engine compartment for it and as for front axle it's rated at 18700 lbs.

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    Default Re: Re: Money

    Originally posted by NJ-TF1



    The price on our 95' Seagrave was $450,000 with a few extras

    As for the HP on the engine at that time Seagrave was making it with the Detriot 6V92/TA & Detriot 8V92/TA engines, on the two demos we looked at they both had the 8V92 in them with really no difference in wheel height. Now I guess the can put in a series 60 Detriot more than enough room in the engine compartment for it and as for front axle it's rated at 18700 lbs.
    OK, no pump, no tank and I assume no hose load correct??? Light Tower??? Generator??? What I'm saying is that personally, I think it will be hard to find ANY aerial with a pump, tank, hose load and options that is going to be under $550,000.

    Also, I don't think you want a 18000lb axle on a 65,000+ lb apparatus. From what I have seen, the Detriot Series 60 motors are both physically larger and weigh more than the old 6V and 8V motors.
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    One problem with the Patriot series is that it is a medium duty ladder with a tip load of 250 lbs.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB-KTF

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    OK, no pump, no tank and I assume no hose load correct??? Light Tower??? Generator??? What I'm saying is that personally, I think it will be hard to find ANY aerial with a pump, tank, hose load and options that is going to be under $550,000.

    http://mortlake.org/Mortlake/Apparat...Ladder_190.htm

    2001 Pierce 105' 500lb tip load
    Cummins ISM450 450hp Diesel
    Allison 4060 Transmission
    Waterous 1500gpm Pump, with Class A foam system for handlines
    300gwt + foam cell
    10kw AMPS hydraulic-driven generator
    With new ground ladders, most hand tools (Axes, Pike Poles, etc), electrical cord reels, extinguishers.
    (We transferred most major small equipment like Air Packs, Fans, Radios)

    $539,000 from Pierce.
    We added about $20,000 worth of items we handle/contract ourselves traditionally, like Gold Leafing, Radios, new hose. We also do delivery ourselves (we drive it home from the factory), and provide our own airfare & accomodations for inspections.

    Had three lower bids, three higher bids ranging from $483,000 to $672,000 with four between $531-$558,000.

    I see the prices listed for many aerials, and gotta wonder how they get the prices up that high.

    Matt

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    Default Re: Re: Re: Money

    Originally posted by TCFD12


    OK, no pump, no tank and I assume no hose load correct??? Light Tower??? Generator??? What I'm saying is that personally, I think it will be hard to find ANY aerial with a pump, tank, hose load and options that is going to be under $550,000.

    Also, I don't think you want a 18000lb axle on a 65,000+ lb apparatus. From what I have seen, the Detriot Series 60 motors are both physically larger and weigh more than the old 6V and 8V motors.
    As for the rear axle it's rated above 65,000 lbs with the total truck weight coming in above that, as for lighting there are two 1500W tele-light on each side with a 7.5KW Gen-Set mounted forward of the turntable, yes the series 60 is bigger we have one in our new ALF pumper.



    Robert B.
    HAddon Fire Co. #1
    http://www.haddonfirecompany.org

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    Originally posted by Dalmatian90
    I see the prices listed for many aerials, and gotta wonder how they get the prices up that high.
    OK this is me eating crow!!! LOL!!

    That's the exact reason that I made the statement I did. I have see many aerials in my area coming in at over $800,000 without pumps and tanks!!!!

    Dal, looks like you guys got a pretty decent deal, considering what you got.
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    Default $$$$

    We have a 2000 seagrave patriot with a hale qmax 1750gpm pump and 300 gallon tank and we paid $450,000.00!!!!!

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    Default Competition?

    Anyone think the Mortlake $539K Pierce came in at that becuase it looks like they had 7 bidders? Write the spec to one manufacturer and you just handed that manufacturer a monopoly - and do you think they aren't going to take advantage of that.
    Was just reading the latest Fire Apparatus issue. It looks like FDNY is paying $975K for their latest 95' Aerialscopes. Is there really over $430K worth of additional components, materials, labor, engineering, etc. to build that Scope vs. Mortlake's Pierce 105' Quint?

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    Go to www.smeal.com and click on "Apparatus" and then "Demo units". You will find a 100' Midmount aerial, 9' 10" travel height, with big HP, 500 water, midship pump, 500 lb tip load while flowing 1250 GPM and a whole lot more for just $535,000 delivered. This is available for IMMEDIATE DELIVERY.

    Smeal does not have a dealer in MN, so I bet you could get the price down even lower than $535,000 if you pressed them.

    Complete specs are on line.

    If you are really serious about buying a HIGH quality, top of the line rig, then you need to check it out.

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    Anyone think the Mortlake $539K Pierce came in at that becuase it looks like they had 7 bidders?

    I'm sure that was a factor. There was a concious decision made that the Ladder would be a pretty stock truck -- not a lot of special or unusual requests on it, and we made an effort to solicit a large number of bids and made it clear the spec was not tilted for any particular vendor.

    We've also built over the years some very unique trucks, and those also have come in at competetive prices, even when we've had to twist arms even to get a second or single bidder.

    Sometimes builders throw numbers up against a wall to see what sticks -- we had one in last night throwing very preliminary numbers out there for a pretty straight tanker -- 1500gpm/3000gwt with minimal equipment, and the initial guess was around $290,000. Well, that's up on the wall now and I suspect has a long way to slide -- and we'll spec "Options" such as us providing the chassis, providing warning lights, providing small equipment, etc.

    And sometimes it's even not-so-minor stuff that makes a difference -- we want poly tank, and kind of by default have been looking at stainless-wrapped elipitical. Well we found out last night, at least from that builder, going to a square wetside poly tank would save $13,000 or so. So right there we go from talking $290,000 to $277,000 -- let's keep going. We've had reps in from fire apparatus manufacturers. We've also had reps from local heavy truck dealers -- the more information we learn, the better off we are. What starts off with a vision of a elippitical tank on a Kenworth may end up being very different in the end with better performance for less money.

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